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ATD 2011 Draft Thread III

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Old
02-07-2011, 12:00 AM
  #26
Hawkey Town 18
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Working on my Bio for Vasiliev...

If I post it in the Bio thread and post a link to it in this thread should I still be removing the names of undrafted players?

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02-07-2011, 12:03 AM
  #27
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I didn't expect this guy to still be on the board at pick 105 (especially with the premium on defensemen).

GM hungryhungryhippy selects, for the second draft in a row, defenseman Jean-Claude Tremblay. JC is an ace in the #1 spot, and belongs right next to guys like Leetch and Lapointe in this league, and I look forward to debating with anyone who doubts that for a second.

The Rundown...

Legacy:

- Won 5 Stanley Cups as the #1 D-man of the late 1960s Montreal Canadiens
- "A very important cog in our machine" -Jean Beliveau
- Arguably played 8 seasons of top-5 Norris level hockey in a tough era, and once lost winning the trophy only to Bobby Orr

Skill-Set:

- High-end skill set
- Smooth skater, highly mobile, puck-moving defenseman
- Elite playmaker who was known for making perfect passes at high-speeds coming out of his zone
- Ran Montreal's transition game
- Was THE powerplay quarterback on one of the most efficient units in the league for 11 years

In his own zone:

- Tremendously responsible defensively
- Intelligent, efficient defenseman who was known for impeccable positioning and crafty stick-work
- Played in all crucial defensive situations for the Habs during their playoff runs, in all areas of the ice, at all times, when a lead had to be protected, etc...

Playoffs:

- An absolute monster in the playoffs, arguably the most dominant post-season player of his era

------------------------

Full bio...

Jean-Claude Tremblay, D, LHS, 6'1'', 190 lbs *adjusted sizes*

"He was a very important cog in our machine." - Jean Beliveau



From Joe Pelletier's blog Greatest Hockey Legends:

Jean-Claude (J.C.) Tremblay is one of the most intelligent, two-way defenders of all time. Yet very few give him recognition as such.

Tremblay was an excellent all around performer during this time, and saved his best performances for the playoffs.

He was tremendously responsible defensively and a great two way defenseman, often head manning the puck to the speedy Montreal forwards...

Defensively Tremblay was efficient and heady, relying on his intelligent stick to break up plays rather than bones. He never really had an obvious physical game, something that his critics pointed out regularly. But he was so smart, it did not really matter.

Tremblay established his reputation as a great in the playoffs, where he was a tremendous performer, seemingly able to turn up his game like flicking a switch. He scored 14 goals, 51 assists and 65 points in 108 games, helping the Montreal Canadiens to 5 Stanley Cup championships.

The year is 1966. Ace defenseman Jean-Claude Tremblay is the key player as the Montreal Canadiens defend their Stanley Cup championship. Tremblay leads all Canadiens players in point scored during these playoffs, tallying 11 points including 1 goal and 6 points in the finals against Detroit. His defensive effort was also supreme. He seemed to always be on the ice for the many crucial situations faced in a playoff game.

For years J.C. played in the NHL and didn't put up great numbers until his 11th season. Then, when he reached his prime, he left the NHL to join a league which was mostly regarded to be of lower quality than the NHL. If he had stayed in the NHL he, as it turned out, would have won 4 more Stanley Cups and be part of what many believe is the greatest team of all time (the 1976-79 Canadiens).


From the official Montreal Canadiens' site:

A mobile defenseman with a smooth skating stride, Jean-Claude Tremblay sparkled as the team's power play quarterback for 11 seasons in Montreal.

Jean-Claude Tremblay patrolled the Montreal blue line for over a decade, earning five Stanley Cup Championships along the way.

A superb skater – fast, mobile and blessed with innate hockey smarts – Tremblay was an offensive threat able to make precise passes through traffic to teammates in full flight.

Forgoing the more robust style of play preferred by most defensemen, Tremblay rarely lay on the body, going about things with a bit more finesse than most of his peers. A magician with his stick, Tremblay effortlessly stripped enemy forwards of the puck, turning it back up the ice to begin the counter attack.

Agile and elusive, once Tremblay had the puck, rarely did opponents get it back. He quarterbacked the most potent power play in the league and often seemed to kill entire penalties on his own, weaving his way through whole teams for the duration of his team’s penalty.

Dedicated to his craft, Tremblay spent countless hours refining his skills and adding to his bag of tricks. He developed a long lob that he occasionally released from centre ice, sometimes embarrassing unsuspecting goalies.

A regular season stalwart, Tremblay took his game to another level in the playoffs.

From HabsWorld's "The Forgotten Habs" Series:


There wasn’t a better puck handler in the league than J.C. He was able to produce offense from the blue line, and was the leagues best playmaking defenseman. One of his signature plays was to rush up to the center red line and flip the puck in the air towards the goaltender. When done properly the puck would take an unpredictable bounce in front of the goaltender. Tremblay later estimated that he was able to score 25 goals off these weird bounces by frustrated goalies.

But it was in the playoffs where J.C. really shone, scoring 9 points in 13 playoff games. With the Canadiens up 3 games to none in the finals against the Blues, the Canadiens were trailing 2-1 in the third period. At 7:24 of the third, J.C. set up Henri Richard for the tying goal, and four minutes later scored the Stanley Cup winning goal.

In 1971-72 Tremblay was made one of the team’s assistant captains. He responded by contributing 57 points and an astonishing career high plus/minus of +52. Tremblay’s stature was never higher; he was named to represent Team Canada in the 1972 Summit Series.

J.C. Tremblay played the majority of his career in the shadows, first in the shadow of the great Doug Harvey, and then when his spot on the Canadiens was taken over in the next year by Larry Robinson. But J.C. Tremblay was a great player in his own right, a player for whom recognition was a constant struggle, and one of the top defensemen ever to play for the Canadiens.

From legendary Habs sportswriter Red Fischer:

During his time, there was nobody better, in terms of taking care of business in his own end of the ice.

He didn't have the size, but few had a better understanding of what was needed to win. Tremblay's colleagues during his years with the team were people such as Jacques Laperrière, XXXXXX and XXXXXX, but when a lead had to be protected or an important goal was needed, Tremblay was your man

From hockey author, Paul Denault:

[addressing the notion that Tremblay had a bad personality]

We must be careful to make judgements about people off the ice, when we only know them through heresay. I have spoken to many of his former teammates, and to a man they all recall J.C. as a great player, an exemplary teammate, and above all a winner.

From reputable HFBoards poster, and former ATD champion, Struminator:

Tremblay was one of the most misunderstood athletes of his time, in my opinion. I don't think anyone ever called him a bad teammate, and really he appears to be one of the earliest victims of the Montreal media as much as anything. I also think people sometimes confuse Tremblay's softness with lack of defensive ability, which is not the case. J.C. had tremendous hockey sense and timing, and was extremely good at playing the stick, stealing pucks, etc. - more or less the same tactics we see employed by Lidstrom today (though Tremblay wasn't that good defensively). At any rate, he was quite good in his own end.

It seems strange to me that Tremblay has had a reputation on this board for playing poor defensive hockey For those of us who saw Tremblay play (I am old enough to remember him in his last couple of years in Montreal), such statements are mindboggling, but they seem to have been accepted as fact around here for some time. At any rate, it is hard to imagine that the Habs could have won 5 Cups with Tremblay as their #1 defenseman if he hadn't been very good in his own zone.

WHAT ABOUT THE WHA?

Quote:
Originally posted by Sturminator:

J.C. Tremblay broke through late in the 64-65 season, carried it through to an excellent playoffs and went into the 65-66 season as one of the best defensemen in the league, ending up 4th in Norris voting. Over the next six seasons, Tremblay would place in the top-5 in Norris voting another 4 times, peaking at 2nd in 67-68, the year Bobby Orr won his first trophy. Other than the 69-70 season, in which J.C. missed 18 games to injury, he was considered one of the NHL's top 5 defensemen 5 out of 6 seasons at his peak - an impressive run of consistency in an era of stiff competition.

Tremblay's Norris voting record: 65-66 (4th), 66-67 (5th), 67-68 (2nd ), 70-71 (3rd), 71-72 (5th)

The players who beat Tremblay during those seasons: Bobby Orr (4 times), Pierre Pilote (2 times), Brad Park (2 times), xxxxxx (2 times), Tim Horton, Jacques Laperriere, xxxxxx and XXXXXX

After 7 seasons among the NHL's best and still at the top of his game, J.C. Tremblay jumped to the WHA. At this point, evaluating his career becomes a little bit harder. What do we make of his WHA career? We know he was very good in his first four seasons in the WHA, being named a 1st team all-star three times, once 2nd team, leading the league in assists twice and winning the Dennis A. Murphy award for best defenseman twice. But so what? How much should we credit Tremblay's WHA accomplishments?

I'm not normally one to look upon WHA players all that favorably. It was without a doubt a second rate league when compared to the NHL, and while there was certainly some nice talent in the league, there was very little depth. With a few exceptions, the performance of WHA players are very hard to evaluate against their NHL counterparts, but Tremblay is one of those exceptions. It is accepted as fact that J.C. carried over into the WHA the level of play which had defined his NHL career for the 7 previous seasons. He wasn't merely good in the WHA, for the first 4 seasons he was ridiculously dominant, which is exactly what you'd expect from a guy who was NHL top-5 good and still at his peak. If we're simply rating Tremblay against himself, three of his first four WHA seasons were up to his previous NHL standard: he won the best defenseman award and the assists crown in 72-73, won best defenseman again in 74-75 and won another assists crown to go along with a 1st team all-star berth in 75-76.

Add those accomplishments to his NHL resume, and suddenly you've got a guy who played 8 seasons of top-5 Norris level hockey in a tough era, and once lost winning the trophy only to Bobby Orr - a record of success that compares favorably to established lower-level ATD #1's like Brian Leetch, Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard, Borje Salming and Chris Pronger. When we factor in Tremblay's outstanding playoff record and his strangely underrated two-way play (which stems mostly from his softness and the misconception that it made him ineffective in his own end), there is a very good argument that he is, in fact, a top-32 all-time defenseman, and every bit deserving of his #1 role in Portland.


ACCOMPLISHMENTS


Alternate Captain of the 1972 Montreal Canadiens
Captain of the the 1973 Quebec Nordiques (WHA)

First NHL All-Star Team Defenseman (1971)
Second NHL All-Star Team Defenseman (1968)
NHL All-Star Game x7 (1959, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1971, 1972)

First WHA All-Star Team Defenseman x3 (1973, 1975, 1976)
Second WHA All-Star Team Defenseman (1974)

Top-5 Norris Trophy Nomination x5 (2nd*, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 5th)
*2nd to Bobby Orr

Dennis A. Murphy Award (best defenseman in the WHA) x2 (1973, 1975)

Played in the 1974 Summit Series
Selected to play in the 1972 Summit Series, but was dropped after leaving the NHL to go play in the WHA

STATS

Top-10 Assists Amongst All Skaters x2(6th, 8th)

Top-10 Scoring Amongst Defensemen x5 (2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th)
Top-10 Goalscoring Amongst Defensemen x4 (3rd, 5th, 5th, 7th)
Top-10 Assists Amongst Defensemen x6 (2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 9th)

*At the time of leaving the Canadiens, was in the top fifty all-time NHL assist leaders*
*At the time of leaving the Canadiens was team's all time leader in points for defensemen*


Also led the WHA in assists (amongst all skaters) x2

PLAYOFFS

Top-10 Playoff Scoring Amongst All Skaters x3 (2nd, 6th, 7th)

*Including Hull, Howe, Mikita, Delvecchio, Ullman, H. Richard, Bathgate, Mahovlich, etc...

Top-10 Playoff Scoring Amongst Defensemen x6 (1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 5th)

*Including Pilote, Kelly, Gadsby, Orr, Park, etc...

Stanley Cup Champion x5 (1965, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1971)

*Was robbed of a Conn Smythe trophy in 1966 - he led the playoff in scoring and was spectacular for the cup winning Canadiens, but the award was controversially given to the goalie of the losing team*

Quote:
Reputable HFBoards poster Struminator:

It's worth noting that Montreal was able to win Cups over this period without Laperriere in the playoffs, but the one year that Tremblay got hurt (69-70), they did not even qualify for the postseason. Over the span of Tremblay's peak years in Montreal (1965-72), he scored 60 points in 85 playoff games, an absolutely ridiculous pace for that era, and didn't have a single poor performance. The 2nd place scorer among defensemen over this period (XXXXXX) has barely more than 50% of Tremblay's total, with 32 points. J.C. Tremblay was quite clearly the dominant postseason defenseman of his era, and quite possibly the single best postseason player of his era, as well.

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Old
02-07-2011, 12:17 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyD View Post
Working on my Bio for Vasiliev...

If I post it in the Bio thread and post a link to it in this thread should I still be removing the names of undrafted players?
I don't see a problem with linking to another thread that has undrafted players in it.


anyone have a list for LL? He's been gone for 3 hours. I'm worried I won't be picking anytime soon.

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02-07-2011, 12:28 AM
  #29
Hawkey Town 18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I don't see a problem with linking to another thread that has undrafted players in it.
Thanks for the response. Another question...

When using google news archive I'm coming across a lot of articles that require me to purchase the full text. Is there any way around this? Maybe using another site or going to the library?

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02-07-2011, 02:16 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Based on what? Just NHL? NHA too? stanley cup?

Intuitively, it doesn't seem right. Denneny scored 370 points in 370 regular season games, and 28 in 43 playoff games. That would put him at a 0.65 factor if you were to divide playoff PPG by regular season PPG. Are you saying the league's average over this time was 0.43? It would have to be, for him to exceed it by 50%. Please explain these numbers better because they don't pass the smell test.
I actually just used his 10 year peak, which was 1918 to 1927.

In those years, the NHA's regular season scoring dropped to 59% in the play-offs. Over that same time, Denneny's scoring dropped to 82% in the play-offs. So compared to the rest of the league, that's 146%, right?

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02-07-2011, 03:31 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I actually just used his 10 year peak, which was 1918 to 1927.

In those years, the NHA's regular season scoring dropped to 59% in the play-offs. Over that same time, Denneny's scoring dropped to 82% in the play-offs. So compared to the rest of the league, that's 146%, right?
We need to be careful not to gloss over the actual facts with broad statistical analysis, especially now that so much specific information is available to us. In Denneny's case, he doesn't even need the broad analysis. He was the leading scorer on three Cup winners. That's enough to tell me that he brought his A game in the postseason.

But seriously...there are a lot of bad statistics out there, and sweeping, career-wide playoff PPG stats are among the worst. I am also not a big fan of GF/GA statistics which completely ignore known and significant external factors. I will offer an example which will surely annoy overpass, but is nonetheless telling:

If you read the bio overpass did on Chris Pronger, you will see that he rates Pronger, by virtue of power play efficiency statistics with Pronger on the ice, as one of the best PP defensemen of the last decade, and adds this comment in summation:

Quote:
Pronger and Lidstrom have both been among the best power play defencemen in the past decade. Lidstrom has probably been a touch better, but he's had more talent to play with.
Although I have a lot of respect for overpass as a hockey mind, this is an abuse of statistics. Why? Because Chris Pronger has spent almost his entire career as the second best power play defenseman on his own team. He was paired on the powerplay (and often at even strength) with Al MacInnis in St. Louis and then with xxxxxx (although normally not at even strength) in Anaheim. Of course Pronger's power play goals-on-ice-for numbers look great. He has had an inordinate amount of help.

A specific two year sequence of events in Pronger's career is rather telling. Pronger played the top pairing in St. Louis with MacInnis for a long time, and that was a very effective power play. Then Pronger misses almost the entire season in 02-03 and the Blues' power play actually improves - scoring 80 goals vs. a league average of 60. The next season, MacInnis misses the whole year and Pronger is the team's #1 quarterback. The Blues score 61 goals on the powerplay vs. a league average of 57: barely above average. The Oilers with Pronger as #1 PP quarterback were also barely above average on the powerplay, scoring 88 goals vs. a league average of 85. There are really three seasons in Pronger's career in which he has been his team's best powerplay quarterback, and in only one of them (last year in Philly) was the team significantly above average in PP efficiency. I'm not sure what happened last year in Philly. Maybe Pronger played great on the PP? But the two seasons prior to that when he carried the load, his teams were quite average in that department.

I am not here to tell you that Chris Pronger can't quarterback a powerplay. He handles and distributes the puck well, though he is not elite in either area, and although he has a big shot, it is too slow to be of much value on the man advantage. The numbers presented by overpass, without context, make Pronger look like an elite powerplay quarterback, only a touch below Lidstrom...but the truth is something else, and I think anyone who has seen him knows it. In an ATD sense, he is certainly not a good #1 powerplay quarterback.

I'm not trying to pick on you, overpass - this was just the best example of "statistical smoke" (to use GBC's old saw) I could think of off the top of my head. There are many more examples of such obfuscatory statistics in the player bios, not to mention a great volume of fluffy text (again, not specifically targeting overpass here). We really need to approach statistics in as sober and balanced a manner as possible, and make specific distinctions when they are known.

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02-07-2011, 04:29 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
But seriously...there are a lot of bad statistics out there, and sweeping, career-wide playoff PPG stats are among the worst.
I'm not just using career-wide play-off PPG though.

I'm taking his prime years and comparing his play-off PPG to his regular season PPG. Then I'm taking the league averages from those same years, and comparing how Denneny did against his peers.

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02-07-2011, 04:47 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post


Jean-Claude Tremblay, D, LHS, 6'1'', 190 lbs *adjusted sizes*
stop with this adjusted size BS please, especially in the bio, Tremblay had average size for his era, so you should be happy with it.

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02-07-2011, 05:12 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
I'm not just using career-wide play-off PPG though.

I'm taking his prime years and comparing his play-off PPG to his regular season PPG. Then I'm taking the league averages from those same years, and comparing how Denneny did against his peers.
With the exception of 26-27 (and even then, he was in decline), the entirety of Denneny's peak occured during the East-vs.-West Cup Era, an epoch of hockey on which I am well informed. The playoffs during this period were quite special. The NHL playoffs were sometimes a best of 5 series and sometimes a 2 game total goals home and away series - very much like the European Champions league of soccer at present. Afterwards, there was either a 5 or 7 game East-vs.-West Cup Finals, and sometimes a consolation series to determine 3rd and 4th places, as well.

An individual series during this period could be either high-scoring or tight-checking, sometimes extremely so, and greatly dependent on the teams and systems involved. The Cup Finals series were generally "tilted" towards the East for a variety of reasons which I will explain at a later date. At any rate, statistical analysis of performance (regular season or playoffs) from this period requires a high level of granularity and specificity, both because of small sample sizes (an entire Cup run was often only 7 games) and because external factors (including rules changes) could vary widely from series to series and from year to year. The statistics you are offering are, simply put, extremely superficial.

But not to worry. Cy Denneny was a very good playoff performer. You're just taking a shortcut in showing the hows and whys of it.


Last edited by Sturminator: 02-07-2011 at 07:24 AM.
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02-07-2011, 06:50 AM
  #35
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I'll be around later on today to hopefully make my pick. I think there's still 7 picks ahead of me so i should be good with the time clock.

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02-07-2011, 07:21 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
After a lot of deliberation, the Toronto St.Pats select:

C/LW Nels "Old Poison" Stewart

A two time hart winner and one of the best goalscorers ever. And another tough mofo to the St. Pats to join Pilote.

You probably go "?" at the /LW I put on there- and yet I put it there because in a few newspaper searches, I have seen Stewart referred to as both a centre AND a winger/LW (in seperate instances). Not to mention how well his game really could translate to the LW kind of role. I'll try and prove he can indeed be put at LW, which would do wonders for his all-time value.
i have also seen many reports of stewart playing LW.

i have read many interesting things about him. often described as lazy, but also described as deceptive and quick as a cat near the net with a very quick shot. frank selke said stewart was the "brainiest" player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
The Cincinnati Fireworks are very Proud to select Bernie Parent
i have wondered for quite a while why parent is not ranked about the same as dryden.

careers are of similar length (7+ for dryden, 12+ for parent). statisically similar (sv%). parent faced many more PP's (sometimes 50% more) and had weaker teammates. flyers seemed to be a more defensive team, though.

flyers without parent and habs without dryden were still among the best defensively, but neither team was able to win without their top goalie. habs were able to win with dryden not playing very well ('79), flyers were able to reach the finals without parent ('76).

i have been more impressed with parent in old games i have seen, but i have not seen enough of dryden, and someone once said that more games are available in which dryden was mediocre, b/c if he had played very well, the game would not have been close. i have also seen a couple of games of parent with TML, and was he was very good.

OTOH, flyers' intimidation and goonery probably had some effect on other teams, and may have made parent's job easier but that is impossible to quantify.


i don't think the shots and saves numbers from HSP are split by home and road, but it would be useful to see if "philly flu" appears in statistics for shots.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
We need to be careful not to gloss over the actual facts with broad statistical analysis, especially now that so much specific information is available to us. In Denneny's case, he doesn't even need the broad analysis. He was the leading scorer on three Cup winners. That's enough to tell me that he brought his A game in the postseason.

But seriously...there are a lot of bad statistics out there, and sweeping, career-wide playoff PPG stats are among the worst. I am also not a big fan of GF/GA statistics which completely ignore known and significant external factors. I will offer an example which will surely annoy overpass, but is nonetheless telling:

If you read the bio overpass did on Chris Pronger, you will see that he rates Pronger, by virtue of power play efficiency statistics with Pronger on the ice, as one of the best PP defensemen of the last decade, and adds this comment in summation:



Although I have a lot of respect for overpass as a hockey mind, this is an abuse of statistics. Why? Because Chris Pronger has spent almost his entire career as the second best power play defenseman on his own team. He was paired on the powerplay (and often at even strength) with Al MacInnis in St. Louis and then with xxxxxx (although normally not at even strength) in Anaheim. Of course Pronger's power play goals-on-ice-for numbers look great. He has had an inordinate amount of help.

A specific two year sequence of events in Pronger's career is rather telling. Pronger played the top pairing in St. Louis with MacInnis for a long time, and that was a very effective power play. Then Pronger misses almost the entire season in 02-03 and the Blues' power play actually improves - scoring 80 goals vs. a league average of 60. The next season, MacInnis misses the whole year and Pronger is the team's #1 quarterback. The Blues score 61 goals on the powerplay vs. a league average of 57: barely above average. The Oilers with Pronger as #1 PP quarterback were also barely above average on the powerplay, scoring 88 goals vs. a league average of 85. There are really three seasons in Pronger's career in which he has been his team's best powerplay quarterback, and in only one of them (last year in Philly) was the team significantly above average in PP efficiency. I'm not sure what happened last year in Philly. Maybe Pronger played great on the PP? But the two seasons prior to that when he carried the load, his teams were quite average in that department.

I am not here to tell you that Chris Pronger can't quarterback a powerplay. He handles and distributes the puck well, though he is not elite in either area, and although he has a big shot, it is too slow to be of much value on the man advantage. The numbers presented by overpass, without context, make Pronger look like an elite powerplay quarterback, only a touch below Lidstrom...but the truth is something else, and I think anyone who has seen him knows it. In an ATD sense, he is certainly not a good #1 powerplay quarterback.

I'm not trying to pick on you, overpass - this was just the best example of "statistical smoke" (to use GBC's old saw) I could think of off the top of my head. There are many more examples of such obfuscatory statistics in the player bios, not to mention a great volume of fluffy text (again, not specifically targeting overpass here). We really need to approach statistics in as sober and balanced a manner as possible, and make specific distinctions when they are known.
imo, pronger was better on PP than his teammate in anaheim.

edmonton's PP became better with pronger, but it cannot be known how much credit goes to pronger. '04 was 2 years before '06 and rosters changed much b/c of the salary cap.

oilers' PP
'04: 13.02% (29th)
'06: 18.14% (14th)
'07: 14.21% (27th)

oilers' PK became better after pronger joined, but did not decline after he was traded.

i remember reading oilers' fans talking about how pronger had really improved special teams. imo, pronger could have been a norris finalist in '06, but i think oilers' weak goaltending masked his play.

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Old
02-07-2011, 07:21 AM
  #37
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I can't quote from the other thread but to Cognition: My typing skills are underrated.English is my second language and I only learned 2 years ago.

Oh and I'm the one around the most

My addiction to ATD =

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02-07-2011, 07:35 AM
  #38
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Pfft, you may be here, but I actually dreamed about ATD tonight

(all I remember is that someone with Leafs avatar - LL, BC? - was badmouthing my Busher Jackson pick)

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Old
02-07-2011, 07:38 AM
  #39
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pfff dreams don't count , but even if they do you wouldn't believe the nightmare I had drafting Turner Stevenson in the 4th round.

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02-07-2011, 07:43 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
imo, pronger was better on PP than his teammate in anaheim.
That's debatable, and also impossible to sort out statistically. If that's what you think, I disagree, but I can't prove you wrong.

Quote:
edmonton's PP became better with pronger, but it cannot be known how much credit goes to pronger. '04 was 2 years before '06 and rosters changed much b/c of the salary cap.

oilers' PP
'04: 13.02% (29th)
'06: 18.14% (14th)
'07: 14.21% (27th)
Yeah...the Oil had zero offensive talent on the blueline in 03-04. Their top scoring defenseman that year was Steve Staios (who I will name because he's not good enough to be drafted in an 80 team ATD) with 28 points. Of course Pronger improved that power play (to the point of being average), but that's not saying much.

I'm not disputing Pronger's penalty-killing. He has been arguably the best penalty killer in the league over the course of his career, including Lidstrom. That's one thing he does very well.

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02-07-2011, 07:44 AM
  #41
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yeah i wont be around for too many 2 am on the clock notices

so here i am give me an hr

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02-07-2011, 07:59 AM
  #42
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select

Scott Niedermayer, D

more to come...

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Old
02-07-2011, 08:16 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Leaf Lander View Post
Scott Niedermayer, D
33 defensemen went in the top-100 and yet he wasn't among them. Gooood pick.

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02-07-2011, 08:23 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
At the same time, be careful not to underestimate Parent's other non-cup years. He was frequently a factor in all-star voting and the worst he ever did in sv% rankings was 11th, or, put another way, the furthest down the list of goalies with at least 1500 minutes in a season he ever ranked, was 32% down, when he was 9th out of 28 in 1971. In all, he was top-3 six times.

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...9&postcount=28
I'm not saying he was bad the other years.. just that his two cup years are astronomically good.

TCG had some of the same information you posted here regarding Parent on his blog too.

I just feel pretty comfortable with a guy who was a member of the first cup dynasty (post 1927) and part of the legendary squad who came back from 3-0 to win the cup.

Here is some analysis he did on clutch goalies (some are undrafted right now)

http:///brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/08/making-big-save.html

I see you posting in the comments hahaha..

And here is some of the same save percentage placings you brought up:

http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/...rcentages.html

One thing to keep in mind is that being top 10 at the time isn't as big a deal when there were what.. between 12 and 18 teams during that span? Still it at the very least means better than average.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 02-07-2011 at 08:37 AM.
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Old
02-07-2011, 08:38 AM
  #45
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Scott Niedermayer is the only player in hockey history to have won a Stanley Cup, Olympic gold medal, World Championship, World Cup, Memorial Cup and World Junior title. He's the only player in hockey history to have won four Stanley Cups and two gold medals. He also has a Norris trophy and Conn Smythe trophy. He was a winner.

Niedermayer often looked like a defenseman with unparalleled skating ability, and he made it look effortless. That carried over to the power play, where Niedermayer's command on the point was glorious: That smooth skating and puck control near the blue line; the way he'd sail against the current while the other players prepared for either a pass or a shot. His influence can be seen in the way players like Mike Green(notes) help run the power play. He didn't reinvent the wheel; he just showed how smoothly it could ride.

He's an elite, legend-for-his-era defenseman; what would his stats have looked like in a different era? Could he have reached Coffey-like numbers in a more freewheeling era on a more freewheeling team like the Oilers? The Devils of the Dead Puck era was no place to rack up blueline numbers, not in Lou's house.

Untapped potential aside, Niedermayer was also an essential part of one of the best defensive teams of the last 20 years. And he's most fondly remembered for his goal as a 21-year-old in Game 2 of the 1995 Stanley Cup Finals against the Detroit Red Wings, Niedermayer helped the team on its way to a sweep with a calling-card tally on a brilliant end-to-end rush.

Truly, an all-time great.

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02-07-2011, 08:40 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sabre View Post
Scott Niedermayer is the only player in hockey history to have won a Stanley Cup, Olympic gold medal, World Championship, World Cup, Memorial Cup and World Junior title. He's the only player in hockey history to have won four Stanley Cups and two gold medals. He also has a Norris trophy and Conn Smythe trophy. He was a winner.

Niedermayer often looked like a defenseman with unparalleled skating ability, and he made it look effortless. That carried over to the power play, where Niedermayer's command on the point was glorious: That smooth skating and puck control near the blue line; the way he'd sail against the current while the other players prepared for either a pass or a shot. His influence can be seen in the way players like Mike Green(notes) help run the power play. He didn't reinvent the wheel; he just showed how smoothly it could ride.

He's an elite, legend-for-his-era defenseman; what would his stats have looked like in a different era? Could he have reached Coffey-like numbers in a more freewheeling era on a more freewheeling team like the Oilers? The Devils of the Dead Puck era was no place to rack up blueline numbers, not in Lou's house.

Untapped potential aside, Niedermayer was also an essential part of one of the best defensive teams of the last 20 years. And he's most fondly remembered for his goal as a 21-year-old in Game 2 of the 1995 Stanley Cup Finals against the Detroit Red Wings, Niedermayer helped the team on its way to a sweep with a calling-card tally on a brilliant end-to-end rush.

Truly, an all-time great.
While I agree that Niedermayer is a winner and a great skater.. his placing was pretty close to correct in an all time sense give or take a few spots.

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Old
02-07-2011, 08:49 AM
  #47
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Although I have a lot of respect for overpass as a hockey mind, this is an abuse of statistics. Why? Because Chris Pronger has spent almost his entire career as the second best power play defenseman on his own team. He was paired on the powerplay (and often at even strength) with Al MacInnis in St. Louis and then with xxxxxx (although normally not at even strength) in Anaheim. Of course Pronger's power play goals-on-ice-for numbers look great. He has had an inordinate amount of help.
That's a really good point and it certainly could call those numbers into some question.

That is really the problem with trying to determine the weight of any 5 man stat (GF/GA/PK%/PP%/etc.) due to the influence of an individual player.. very very hard to find it with certainty.

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02-07-2011, 09:22 AM
  #48
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Thanks for the response. Another question...

When using google news archive I'm coming across a lot of articles that require me to purchase the full text. Is there any way around this? Maybe using another site or going to the library?
Nope, not to my knowledge. I've found that there are enough free items to satisfy me most of the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoMakc View Post
stop with this adjusted size BS please, especially in the bio, Tremblay had average size for his era, so you should be happy with it.
Agree. If you MUST post adjusted size, you should do it with a big asterisk, and post the player's real size too.

God, I wish I never invented that formula. As good as it works on a cursory basis, a few people have taken far too much of a liking to it. No matter how many times I remind them that it is NOT official in any way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
An individual series during this period could be either high-scoring or tight-checking, sometimes extremely so, and greatly dependent on the teams and systems involved. The Cup Finals series were generally "tilted" towards the East for a variety of reasons which I will explain at a later date. At any rate, statistical analysis of performance (regular season or playoffs) from this period requires a high level of granularity and specificity, both because of small sample sizes (an entire Cup run was often only 7 games) and because external factors (including rules changes) could vary widely from series to series and from year to year. The statistics you are offering are, simply put, extremely superficial.
Thank you for waking up earlier than me and saving me some time.

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My addiction to ATD =
I'm glad we have a hardcore newbie GM. I hope this means you'll be around for good.

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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Their top scoring defenseman that year was Steve Staios (who I will name because he's not good enough to be drafted in an 80 team ATD)
Maybe the rule needs to be that if you want to name an undrafted player, just ctrl-F on page 1 of the 2010 Beer league draft? About 1770 players are named there, and it's hard to imagine anyone not named there is in danger of being one of the 1000 selections here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I'm not saying he was bad the other years.. just that his two cup years are astronomically good.

TCG had some of the same information you posted here regarding Parent on his blog too.

And here is some of the same save percentage placings you brought up:

http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/...rcentages.html
Where do you think he got that info?

Quote:
One thing to keep in mind is that being top 10 at the time isn't as big a deal when there were what.. between 12 and 18 teams during that span? Still it at the very least means better than average.
Those rankings were based on goalies with over 1500 minutes played. Teams used their goalie tandems excessively so this was always from a field of at least 25 goalies, sometimes as many as 35. He was not just better than average, but always at least in the top 1/3 as I said.

To satisfy any curiosity you may have, here is a list of Parent's sv% rankings based on a different benchmark instead of goalies with 1500+ minutes: goalies in the top "x" in minutes, "x" being the number of teams in the league:

1968: 2nd/12
1969: 3rd/12
1970: 2nd/12
1971: DNQ (would be 11th)
1972: 5th/14
1973: WHA
1974: 1st/16
1975: 2nd/18
1976: DNQ (would be 6th)
1977: 8th/18
1978: 3rd/18
1979: DNQ (would be 7th)

among the seasons where he played enough minutes to qualify, Parent's least-impressive sv% season was 1977, when he was 8th out of 18. That's the season he was 11th based on the 1500 minute requirement. that requirement allowed more goalies to be included in the season-by-season comparisons but did nothing to make Parent look any better. I actually like how he looks above, personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sabre View Post
Scott Niedermayer is the only player in hockey history to have won a Stanley Cup, Olympic gold medal, World Championship, World Cup, Memorial Cup and World Junior title. He's the only player in hockey history to have won four Stanley Cups and two gold medals. He also has a Norris trophy and Conn Smythe trophy. He was a winner.
So many great players from history simply didn't have the opportunity to win these kinds of things so how much importance can we really place on this?

I mean, what if they start doing some sort of annual "world supremacy cup" where the Stanley Cup winner challenges the winner of a European champions tournament? Then some player will emerge who is the only player to have won "a Stanley Cup, Olympic gold medal, World Championship, World Cup, Memorial Cup and World Junior title, AND a world supermacy cup" but the latter was something Bourque, Gretzky, Lemieux, and even Niedermayer wimply had no chance of ever winning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave Canadian
While I agree that Niedermayer is a winner and a great skater.. his placing was pretty close to correct in an all time sense give or take a few spots.
I agree.

And not in an all-time sense, but more particularly where he was selected among defensemen.

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Old
02-07-2011, 09:26 AM
  #49
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
That's a really good point and it certainly could call those numbers into some question.

That is really the problem with trying to determine the weight of any 5 man stat (GF/GA/PK%/PP%/etc.) due to the influence of an individual player.. very very hard to find it with certainty.
They can tell us a lot; It's just important to understand context and look at who else was on the ice and what impact they'd have had.

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02-07-2011, 09:35 AM
  #50
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i have also seen many reports of stewart playing LW.

i have read many interesting things about him. often described as lazy, but also described as deceptive and quick as a cat near the net with a very quick shot. frank selke said stewart was the "brainiest" player.
Interesting.

Quote:
i have wondered for quite a while why parent is not ranked about the same as dryden.

careers are of similar length (7+ for dryden, 12+ for parent). statisically similar (sv%). parent faced many more PP's (sometimes 50% more) and had weaker teammates. flyers seemed to be a more defensive team, though.

flyers without parent and habs without dryden were still among the best defensively, but neither team was able to win without their top goalie. habs were able to win with dryden not playing very well ('79), flyers were able to reach the finals without parent ('76).

i have been more impressed with parent in old games i have seen, but i have not seen enough of dryden, and someone once said that more games are available in which dryden was mediocre, b/c if he had played very well, the game would not have been close. i have also seen a couple of games of parent with TML, and was he was very good.

OTOH, flyers' intimidation and goonery probably had some effect on other teams, and may have made parent's job easier but that is impossible to quantify.


i don't think the shots and saves numbers from HSP are split by home and road, but it would be useful to see if "philly flu" appears in statistics for shots.
I think you have to take into account they played in the exact same era at the exact same time and Dryden ended up with 3 more FAST's, 1 more SAST, and a better hart record (while Parent got the extra Conn Smythe). The people watching them game-in game-out evidently found Dryden better.

You could say that voters may have been bias towards Montreal for whatever reason, but that wouldn't explain why Parent didn't rack up any SAST's behind Dryden.

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