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Muckler lays down gauntlet with Havlat

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10-10-2003, 04:52 AM
  #76
Freudian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensGod
Now, Havlat who score ALOT less points and is at this point in his career worth alot less to the team is only making a few K less than Hossa. This sends the wrong message to Hossa and the rest of the team.
Last season Havlat got 0.88 PPG and Hossa got 1 PPG. But Havlat got less PP time and two minutes less ice time/game. If we have a Havlat playing Hossas icetime last season he would have 0.99 PPG. Havlat was +20 last season and Hossa +8.

Now Hossa brings some other things to the table and is the better player at this stage (the physical side) but Havlat getting pretty close to what Hossa is making now isn't farfetched based on actual performance, which is what Muckler claimed he wanted to pay Havlat from. And there is no huge gap in quality like you seem to want to imply.

And if we reverse your statement. Paying Havlat less than half of what Hossa gets when Havlat is as productive is wrong. It sends the wrong message to Havlat and the rest of the team.

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10-10-2003, 04:58 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian
Last season Havlat got 0.88 PPG and Hossa got 1 PPG. But Havlat got less PP time and two minutes less ice time/game. If we have a Havlat playing Hossas icetime last season he would have 0.99 PPG. Havlat was +20 last season and Hossa +8.

Now Hossa brings some other things to the table and is the better player at this stage (the physical side) but Havlat getting pretty close to what Hossa is making now isn't farfetched based on actual performance, which is what Muckler claimed he wanted to pay Havlat from. And there is no huge gap in quality like you seem to want to imply.

And if we reverse your statement. Paying Havlat less than half of what Hossa gets when Havlat is as productive is wrong. It sends the wrong message to Havlat and the rest of the team.
In the first year of Hossa's new contract...he was making about 1.55 million and scored 75 points.

Stop basing Havlat's salary on his potential...

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10-10-2003, 05:03 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensGod
In the first year of Hossa's new contract...he was making about 1.55 million and scored 75 points.

Stop basing Havlat's salary on his potential...

Contracts are SUPPOSED to be on Past performance, NOT potential. As it stands, Havlat is coming off a 59 pt year and a rookie contract, thus Ottawa's offr is fair.

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10-10-2003, 06:41 AM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensGod
In the first year of Hossa's new contract...he was making about 1.55 million and scored 75 points.

Stop basing Havlat's salary on his potential...
Are you really sure you want to go there?

The season before he signed that deal (and according to all you who claim the contract after rookie contract should be based on performance this is what matters) Hossa had 56 points in 78 games. He earned 1.55 M the year after that.

Now we have Havlat who had 59 points in 67 games. You want him to earn 1.35 M the year after that. See how it doesn't add up? Wasn't the contract supposed to be based on what the player had accomplished and not potential? Havlat has accomplished more as a rookie than Hossa did and should get the bigger contract.

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10-10-2003, 06:47 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian
Are you really sure you want to go there?

The season before he signed that deal (and according to all you who claim the contract after rookie contract should be based on performance this is what matters) Hossa had 56 points in 78 games. He earned 1.55 M the year after that.

Now we have Havlat who had 59 points in 67 games. You want him to earn 1.35 M the year after that. See how it doesn't add up? Wasn't the contract supposed to be based on what the player had accomplished and not potential? Havlat has accomplished more as a rookie than Hossa did and should get the bigger contract.
Sure...let's go there.

Hossa played for a weaker team...hence, Havlat's number will be inflated over Hossa's.

Hossa was more important to the team then than Havlat is now. Hossa was the Sens #2 RW at that time. Havlat is Ottawa's #3 RW now.

Hossa gave up two years of arbitration rights...so his base salary was bumped up to compensate for this...THIS...is the biggest factor out of all of them.

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10-10-2003, 06:51 AM
  #81
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The best thing for the Havlat camp at this point is to keep this story hot and try to push all the right buttons on the Sens and the fans. The strategy at this point has to be to try to embarass the Sens to give Havlat more or to get the fans in Ottawa riled up to pressure the Sens to bend.

Usually during a player hold-out, if a team starts to lose early in the season, the pressure is on the team to get the player signed to help out the team's fortunes. If the team wins early, then the pressure is off and the onus turns to the player to accept less or try to force a trade.

Ottawa fans are used to the shenanigans by now. We've had a good dry run with the Yashin escapades. THe Sens never gave in there, and that player was much more pivotal to the Sens fortunes than Havlat is today.
The Sens will make the playoffs without Havlat.

Most Sens fans are tired of being drawn into these financial battles. The contract negotiations are between the player and his team. It is none of our business, most care only up to a point where they'd like to see Havlat signed, but not at any cost. Ottawa fans know that increasing the Sens salary structure for each individual contract battle will not be beneficial for the team in the long run.

Havlat has a right to withhold his services. If that puts pressure on the Sens to up their offer, then fine. I don't think it will happen. At some point Havlat will see that wasting an entire year is not worth it and he will sign. If he doesn't , he will still have to wait another 2 years for salary arbitration eligibility. We went through this with Rachunek last season. We'll see how much more stubborn the Havlat camp is.

The Sens will stick to their guns. Most Ottawa fans are tired of the financial shenanigans and will concentrate on hockey this season. A player turning down 1.35 million to play won't cause many fans to rise up and take arms to defend that stance. Most of us won't see that kind of money in a lifetime. It is not our battle. We are fans, we want hockey and we don't like getting drawn into contractual disputes all that much.

I wish Marty all the best, but it is really up to him if he wants to play for that paltry 1.35 million...most of us would die to play for less.

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10-10-2003, 07:14 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SensGod
Sure...let's go there.

Hossa played for a weaker team...hence, Havlat's number will be inflated over Hossa's.

Hossa was more important to the team then than Havlat is now. Hossa was the Sens #2 RW at that time. Havlat is Ottawa's #3 RW now.

Hossa gave up two years of arbitration rights...so his base salary was bumped up to compensate for this...THIS...is the biggest factor out of all of them.
Ottawa had 41W 28L 11T for 95 points and scored 244 goals the season you are referring to. Hardly a weak team. And the fact that Havlat has been a #3 RW and still outperformed Hossa who was a #2 only illustrates that Havlat has accomplished more under his rookie contract.

And about giving up arbitration rights. I am sure Havlat would do that if he were offered a 4 year contract that reflected that he outperformed Hossa under his rookie contract. 4 years $10M seem about right when you compare past performances of both athletes/general inflation in NHL salaries. So why hasn't we seen such a contract offer from the Sens?We haven't even seen anything close to it.

You guys are all over the place when it comes to this issue. The reason we can't pay Havlat is because he hasn't performed yet but wants to be paid for potential. Oh, he has performed?, even more than Hossa. Well, past performance isn't what it important, it's contract length!

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10-10-2003, 08:11 AM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian
Are you really sure you want to go there?

The season before he signed that deal (and according to all you who claim the contract after rookie contract should be based on performance this is what matters) Hossa had 56 points in 78 games. He earned 1.55 M the year after that.

Now we have Havlat who had 59 points in 67 games. You want him to earn 1.35 M the year after that. See how it doesn't add up? Wasn't the contract supposed to be based on what the player had accomplished and not potential? Havlat has accomplished more as a rookie than Hossa did and should get the bigger contract.
I'll go there considering the fact that you are wrong. Hossa was coming off a 75 point in 81 game season where he played in the All-Star game when he signed his second contract.

Hossa accomplished far more in his first three NHL seasons then Havlat had even though Hossa had to overcome a serious knee injury.

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