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Old
02-06-2011, 11:34 AM
  #51
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLake View Post
If you are ever bored out of your mind, go back and look at my Twitter feed the night of the draft. I share your opinion and several others agreed with me.

I believe my tweet as we went on the clock was "ETEM, ETEM, ETEM, ETEM, ETEM!!! POILE SELECT EMERSON ETEM!!!"
My commentary on #cbj IRC during that part of the draft:
21:27:26 @Viqsi> So. Preds.
21:27:46 @Viqsi> He's due for a forward. It'll be Watson.
21:27:55 @Viqsi> It will be Watson.
21:28:49 @Viqsi> Watson's a two-way shot-blocking big forward. He's exactly what they lack in their system. And Poile does a defense-forward-defense-forward pattern, and he took Ryan Ellis last year.
21:28:51 @Viqsi> It's Watson.
21:29:02 @Viqsi> I am as sure of this as I am sure Howson will draft Gorml-oh****.

Turned out to be right. Go figure.

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Old
02-06-2011, 11:37 AM
  #52
PredsV82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
Forsberg was a special case with Leipold on the outs. It is a bit of a generalization about "giving up assets", you can take that anyway way you want. Perhaps he makes the wrong moves. Plenty of other players picked up for peanuts that could really help this team.

You are nitpicking about a small part of my post. My main point of the post was about the ability to draft goalscorers vs. third liners because of our limitations in free agency.

As for your last point, not sure why you chose Atlanta. Without looking at their trades / free agency, I don't think that they are alot riskier then us. Except they have a worse GM, coaching and ownership issues. Of course, they have the exact same number of Stanley cups and playoff series wins as us.
Well if your only measuring stick is the number of cups won then we are the same as the Sharks, Capitals, and a lot of other teams.

My point is Atlanta drafted as much or more offensive talent as we have defensive talent, and look what it has got them.

And when the Thrash finally sniffed the playoffs they tossed a while bunch of assets to get KT for all the good that did them and then they went right back down to the bottom of the standings.

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Old
02-06-2011, 11:38 AM
  #53
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Lets look at it from this perspective. We have a franchise with stability in the front office and coaching staff. We have the same system and have been competitive for a long time now. We've had some really good teams. Those have been built with some good draft picks and free agent signings. Yet we haven't broken through to that next level, playoff success. While others will probably have different reasons for why we haven't made it to that next level, I suggest it is the lack of dynamic offensive talent. The type that can score goals against the run of play or who can take a load off of your defense.

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Old
02-06-2011, 11:46 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
From what I've seen in this thread, no one is saying that Poile is terrible at drafting. He and the scouting staff have made some great picks over the years. The criticism of Poile in this thread has been his inability to draft dynamic offense talent giving our monetary limitations. People will point to Radulov but that is the exception.
Hartnell ain't bad; dynamic probably not, but an above-avg contributor for sure. Wilson maybe - too soon to tell.

I think if you're going to criticize for not achieving that specific goal you need to break it down like was done above and look at what the teams following us did - did we miss someone they took? If so, Poile's bad, if not, well then maybe we need a crystal ball (or a hot tub time machine), not a scouting department.

I don't think we want to be as bad as Pits or Chic were to be able to draft those high picks in successive years; maybe I'm wrong, maybe we could survive being like the Islanders or Edmonton or the Devils for a few years so we could draft the Ovechkin/Crosby/Kane of the next few drafts; honestly, I don't want to find out. Sign the occasional PK or Lombardi, draft like we have, we'll continue to build a successful franchise and we will have a successful playoff run.

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Old
02-06-2011, 01:09 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
And they do. So why doesn't Poile get credit for our goalie tandem, a Norris trophy candidate, 2 other defensemen that currently make up our second pairing, Erat, Spaling, Tootoo, O'Reilly and Hornqvist?

How about the Columbus GM who selected Filatov ahead of Wilson. You think he's kicking himself?
I see everyone giving him credit for drafting well w/ defensemen and goalies.

Here we go with the Colubmus stuff again. Yes, Columbus sucks and we've done better than them!

Getting Erat and O'Reilly in the draft was "pretty good" but getting Zetterberg and Datsuk, or Eriksson and Neal, was better.

I'll stand by my statement-- Poile has been 'pretty good' at the draft.

I do think he's very hesitant to give up assets. The Forsberg trade has Leipold written all over it. But even still, take the two exceptions of Forsberg and Witt when he gave up significant assets-- they were not good trades.

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Old
02-06-2011, 01:20 PM
  #56
glenngineer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
I see everyone giving him credit for drafting well w/ defensemen and goalies.

Here we go with the Colubmus stuff again. Yes, Columbus sucks and we've done better than them!

Getting Erat and O'Reilly in the draft was "pretty good" but getting Zetterberg and Datsuk, or Eriksson and Neal, was better.

I'll stand by my statement-- Poile has been 'pretty good' at the draft.

I do think he's very hesitant to give up assets. The Forsberg trade has Leipold written all over it. But even still, take the two exceptions of Forsberg and Witt when he gave up significant assets-- they were not good trades.
I'll agree with you here. The GM's picking the guys you mentioned did do better. No bones about it.

I'm not gonna say he is or isn't good with his assets. If he makes trades to acquire higher end talent, he's going to have cap issues. If he keeps his assets, he can always replenish his roster if people leave or get hurt. Could you imagine where we'd be if we had traded off some of our assets with all the injuries we've had this year. I agree, I'd love to see him manage the assets better and get some offensive talent up front.

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Old
02-06-2011, 01:26 PM
  #57
triggrman
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On the same token, the moves he made in the expansion draft to get Kimmo and Vokoun were brilliant.

Trading for soon to be free agents to get compensetory picks was also brillant. In fact, isn't that how we got Weber?

Trading 2 - 2nd round draft picks for Sullivan was also a great move.

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Old
02-06-2011, 01:38 PM
  #58
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
I see everyone giving him credit for drafting well w/ defensemen and goalies.

Here we go with the Colubmus stuff again. Yes, Columbus sucks and we've done better than them!
...in the first four or five years or so. Our drafting improved significantly around '06 when MacLean started getting pushed out. The problem is that we haven't seen much payoff from that yet because the development system was equally screwed and had to be revamped. We're only just now starting to see some depth guys (and one top-level talent) from that development effort - folks like Murray, Dorsett, Methot, Clitsome, and Brassard come to mind*.

One of our posters is actually working on a series of draft and transaction reviews for MacLean and Howson; he's got three of four done now (doesn't have reviews of Howson's drafts up yet). They make for fun (and, if you're a Jackets fan, often depressing) reading, especially the MacLean transactions:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=872682 - MacLean draft picks
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=873398 - MacLean transactions
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=872036 - Howson transactions


*: Sticking to guys MacLean drafted but who had most of their in-organization development time under Howson, so that's why, for example, Voracek isn't included.

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Old
02-06-2011, 01:56 PM
  #59
glenngineer
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Visqi, I saw Moore got recalled the other day. How's he been doing so far?

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02-06-2011, 04:58 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
i will say, and archive this....i wish we had taken emerson etem instead of watson...
I no right? I swear in all the drafts ive watched, just from the scouting footage they show you on NHL network, any person could evaluate an offensive talent. Etem to me seemed to be the right pick for our teams needs, but we choose Watson..... Hell, Quinton Howden, who is a Watson type player, was picked after Watson and right now he is looking more promising than Watson. Just an observation.

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02-06-2011, 05:12 PM
  #61
token grinder
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I don't think Watson will be a bad player, in fact I think he will be a fine 2nd-third line center, which drafting at 18 or whatever it was is fine. I think as long as your first rounder ends up in your top six, or top 4 dmen, it is a good pick.

I was just more enamored with etem's skill. Doesn't surprise me with the watson pick. I mean he is a good kid who is very humble and knows the meaning of hard work. He will be fine. I see him as a 40-50point center, while I thought etem was a 50+point winger in terms of potential. Time will tell.



and all of you know this is the year in the cycle where we draft a dman again, right?

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02-06-2011, 05:43 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
I don't think Watson will be a bad player, in fact I think he will be a fine 2nd-third line center, which drafting at 18 or whatever it was is fine. I think as long as your first rounder ends up in your top six, or top 4 dmen, it is a good pick.

I was just more enamored with etem's skill. Doesn't surprise me with the watson pick. I mean he is a good kid who is very humble and knows the meaning of hard work. He will be fine. I see him as a 40-50point center, while I thought etem was a 50+point winger in terms of potential. Time will tell.



and all of you know this is the year in the cycle where we draft a dman again, right?
Yea i wasnt knocking on Watson, just seems he is the type of player that is easily acquirable outside of a draft as compared to Etem. Also the fact that we can never have too many offensive talents in the pipeline, if any kinda

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Old
02-06-2011, 06:11 PM
  #63
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Visqi, I saw Moore got recalled the other day. How's he been doing so far?
He's only played in the Edmonton game, and (aside from his sheer skating ability, which we already knew was zomfgwtfholycrapwow) wasn't particularly exceptional one way or the other. Which is about what I'd expected - if he has to play in the NHL now, he'll survive, do OK, and not be a liability, but he's not really ready to seriously contribute and needs more development time.

Still on schedule, in other words.

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Old
02-06-2011, 08:04 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
I see everyone giving him credit for drafting well w/ defensemen and goalies.

Here we go with the Colubmus stuff again. Yes, Columbus sucks and we've done better than them!

Getting Erat and O'Reilly in the draft was "pretty good" but getting Zetterberg and Datsuk, or Eriksson and Neal, was better.

I'll stand by my statement-- Poile has been 'pretty good' at the draft.

I do think he's very hesitant to give up assets. The Forsberg trade has Leipold written all over it. But even still, take the two exceptions of Forsberg and Witt when he gave up significant assets-- they were not good trades.
sorry, but I disagree with the bolded part. I don't think that Erat and O'Reilly are all that great, as I was one of the crow-eaters on O'Really's early success. I have always thought Erat was just a frustrating player for the most part. But, it's a little ridiculous to say that drafting Zetterburg, Datsyuk, or Eriksson and neal was better. Change that to developing or handling and your point is made. But, like I've said, switch the teams, and the needs and systems and I can't say that we'd be having this same conversation. Do you honestly thing that Zetterburg would be all that impressive on the Panthers? This draft talk is just too much, sometimes.

We all get that there is a group of people that think Poile/Trotz should go. I get that, I've slightly leaned that direction from time to time, but in reality what it would have taken to get "no-brainers" in the draft might have killed this franchise years ago.

The Forsberg trade was a last-ditch effort to save the team by Leipold, and I'm sure Poile and Trotz were on board with it, though. I completely believe that all that time that PF missed right as he got here killed his ability to gel with his teammates and be a force in the playoffs.

I think it's also a little bit ridiculous to be calling out management after it was ordered to dismantle the team it had built (Hartnell, Kimmo, Vokoun, all Poile "finds" - Kariya - who could have been tendered an offer if there was a budget) by an owner that weakened a team and went to a conference rival. Not to mention that Radulov bolted a season after that. If you're so dissatisfied with Poile that you can't appreciate what he's had to deal with from that standpoint, it sounds like you're just wanting him gone and rationalizing things to fit your viewpoint. Look at all that talent that left, now look at the 'Hawks, that's more than they lost this season, and they're having a tough time.

Oh, and if you're going to look at DET and their drafting, you have to look at what made them great. They had a ton of their original draft picks that filled out their 2/3/4 lines. McCarty, LaPointe, Draper, Konstantinov on defense. Those guys are the ones that won the cups for DET, they were drafted, and developed by Detroit and playing under a coach who knew how to put the best guys in the best spots for them to succeed made them great.

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Old
02-08-2011, 12:38 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by JR303 View Post
sorry, but I disagree with the bolded part. I don't think that Erat and O'Reilly are all that great, as I was one of the crow-eaters on O'Really's early success. I have always thought Erat was just a frustrating player for the most part. But, it's a little ridiculous to say that drafting Zetterburg, Datsyuk, or Eriksson and neal was better. Change that to developing or handling and your point is made. But, like I've said, switch the teams, and the needs and systems and I can't say that we'd be having this same conversation.
You're saying O'Reily would be Datysuk if he was in Detroit????

It's an offensive talent issue in my mind. We have no one close to level or Datysuk, or Eriksson, for that matter.

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02-08-2011, 02:04 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
You're saying O'Reily would be Datysuk if he was in Detroit????

It's an offensive talent issue in my mind. We have no one close to level or Datysuk, or Eriksson, for that matter.
He has a point. There is no guarantee that Datsyuk would be as good as he is now if we drafted him instead. Player development has a lot to do with the system they are brought up in. Talent can only take you so far.

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02-08-2011, 02:24 AM
  #67
dulzhok
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
He has a point. There is no guarantee that Datsyuk would be as good as he is now if we drafted him instead. Player development has a lot to do with the system they are brought up in. Talent can only take you so far.
Might as well give up trying to analyze drafting results if we're pulling this card-- assuming that Erat and O'Reily are as good as Datysuk and Zetterberg, it's just our 'system' didn't develop them as good as Detroit.

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02-08-2011, 03:10 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Might as well give up trying to analyze drafting results if we're pulling this card-- assuming that Erat and O'Reily are as good as Datysuk and Zetterberg, it's just our 'system' didn't develop them as good as Detroit.
I never said that.

It's not pulling a card. It just isn't as simple as you want it to be. It's well known that drafting is only half the battle. Development is just as important.

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Old
02-08-2011, 11:11 AM
  #69
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Not gonna multi-quote all this to save time and space.

I'm not saying that O'Reilly would be Datsyuk. I'm saying that O'Reilly, if drafted by the Wings, would be a different O'Reilly than he is here.

Datsyuk has tons of talent, but what if he was on the Islanders? Do you think he would be what he is now? No, probably not.

My point is that analyzing drafts is a slippery slope. It's impossible to do if you want to talk about it realistically. Analyze drafting and development, and you're absolutely correct. We haven't developed many offensively talented players. I'm on your side, there, but that doesn't make the organizations' choices and development of solid defense and goaltending any less relevant.

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Old
02-14-2011, 01:29 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Poile's draft history.

1998- 4 Forwards, 3 Defensemen and one dude they don't have a position listing for
1999- 7 F, 5 D, 2 Goalies and one dude with no position listing
2000- 6 F, 5 D, 1 G
2001- 5 F, 4 D
2002- 4 F, 2 D, 1 G
2003- 4 F, 6 D, 2 G
2004- 5 F, 4 D, 2 G
2005- 3 F, 4 D
2006- 4 F, 1 G
2007- 5 F, 2 D, 2 G
2008- 3 F, 2 D, 2 G
2009- 7 F, 3 D
2010- 4 F, 2 D

Totals- 61 F, 43 D, 12 G

15 Forwards have played for us or elsewhere in the NHL

12 Defensemen have done the same

2 Goalies have made it. I didn't count Deks for his one game as a backup

116 players drafted, 29 have played for us. That's exactly 25%. That is not including any of the prospects in our system that have been drafted that have yet to debut for us at this time. Guys like Blum, Josi, Ellis and Beck. Those 4 seem to be on the path. Guys like Latta, Budish, Watson, Pickard, Cehlin and some others have shots but don't seem to have the high ceiling. Then there's COR, Engren and some more that have shots as well.

Other than Finley, every other 1st rounder has made it. Blum, Ellis and Watson haven't yet but from all accounts should be in the NHL at some point. Watson I'm on the fence about. So even if Watson doesn't make it, that's 10 out of 13 guys from the first round making it. I put Pickard as not making it either. That's not a bad percentage at the end of the day.

We've had 5 second rounders make it.

I could go on about this but I'm tired of this to be quite honest. I have other things I need to be doing right now. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but if someone wants to do the research on Atlanta, Columbus and Minnesota and see how they've faired in the same time frame I'd be real interested to see the results.
I don't watch a lot of Predator games. I came to this thread looking for information on Austin Watson who I have in a fantasy keeper league. Anyways I started reading some of these posts and I thought this one was good. If you look at drafts they can be crapshoots for anyone. The amount of players who don't make it into the NHL is quite high. In other words I think Poile has done quite well.

Anyways I was reading up on my boy Watson today to discover that he has scored goals in six straight games. It looks like he's in the grove right now and hopefully he can keep it up. If he can keep his goal scoring up without comprimising his solid two way play he could turn out to be a pretty good pick.


Last edited by snapabrahamsnap: 02-14-2011 at 01:30 PM. Reason: mispelt
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