HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Impact of Savard and Malkin Injury

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-07-2011, 06:57 PM
  #1
rban*
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,894
vCash: 500
Impact of Savard and Malkin Injury

OK, they are both out for the season (incl POs I guess).

For Philly, would've been better if injuries had happened AFTER the trade deadline.

Why? Cuz Bruins and Pens will have capspace to go get someone else.

Which is a better deal for Boston than Pens .. Malkin is too good to be replaced by a rental.

But Savard?

QUESTION: with the freed space, how much can Bruins and Pens spend? And who is available? Assume they'll get forwards only. Who do you think they'll get? And how much better will it make the teams?

rban* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 07:01 PM
  #2
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Malkin is (relatively speaking) replaceable given how he's played this year (far below the lofty standards he's set in previous seasons). Whether they can find a quality forward available in a reasonable trade is another matter. A far more pressing question involving the Pens, I think, is whether (when?) Crosby can come back and play to the level he was before the injury? He was playing out of his mind, and they'll be able to beat anyone if he gets back to that level.

The other factor with the Pens is that they spent a lot of the year without Staal, who still isn't 100% back into the groove. As we saw with Gagne last year, when you miss a lot of the beginning of the season, you have a lot of catching up to do in your game.

Savard has 10 pts in 25 games this year... he was essentially a non-factor in them being where they are in the standings. So, anything the Bruins do get to take on his cap hit could be viewed as a significant upgrade.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 07:08 PM
  #3
i am dave
Registered User
 
i am dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Corner of 1st & 1st
Country: United States
Posts: 2,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Malkin is (relatively speaking) replaceable given how he's played this year (far below the lofty standards he's set in previous seasons). Whether they can find a quality forward available in a reasonable trade is another matter. A far more pressing question involving the Pens, I think, is whether (when?) Crosby can come back and play to the level he was before the injury? He was playing out of his mind, and they'll be able to beat anyone if he gets back to that level.

The other factor with the Pens is that they spent a lot of the year without Staal, who still isn't 100% back into the groove. As we saw with Gagne last year, when you miss a lot of the beginning of the season, you have a lot of catching up to do in your game.

Savard has 10 pts in 25 games this year... he was essentially a non-factor in them being where they are in the standings. So, anything the Bruins do get to take on his cap hit could be viewed as a significant upgrade.
Honestly, if Malkin hadn't gotten injured, I would not have been surprised to see the Penguins move him at the deadline, or in the off-season. Now they'll probably have to wait until he's healthy to even consider it.

i am dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 07:09 PM
  #4
KimiFerrari
Messi Is God
 
KimiFerrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Argentina
Posts: 3,818
vCash: 500
Pens have $7.6 mill to play with and Bruins have $4 mill.

Personally I don't think the Flyers need to make any major moves at this point, and I hope that both the Pens and Bruins burn through some of their prospects and/or picks.

KimiFerrari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 07:38 PM
  #5
BernieParent
Registered User
 
BernieParent's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Montreal, QC
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,645
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Pens have $7.6 mill to play with and Bruins have $4 mill.

Personally I don't think the Flyers need to make any major moves at this point, and I hope that both the Pens and Bruins burn through some of their prospects and/or picks.
Definitely, since it's a seller's market right now. And I don't see any shoe-in F help from any of the bottom feeders right now without giving themselves cap migraines beyond this year.

BernieParent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 08:26 PM
  #6
decadentia
Registered User
 
decadentia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: New Brunswick
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,547
vCash: 500
Boston could certainly make a splash with the draft picks they have. As noted, I don't think the Pens can realistically replace Malkin. Though if they could somehow get 1-2 wingers capable wingers on that team it wouldn't help us any.

decadentia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 08:35 PM
  #7
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 14,005
vCash: 500
Jester was right on everything except for one thing I think. I don't see how the Penguins even replace Malkin's production. With Staal? Then who replaces Staal's 50? Kunitz? Who replaces Kunitz? $8m in cap space?

The Penguins need a rental PPG forward on a UFA contract, and they need to have a healthy Crosby and a healthy Staal. Even Letestu is hurt, and this is a team that won a Stanley Cup and attended another based on center depth alone. Without center depth, their depth is laughable.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 08:37 PM
  #8
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 113,340
vCash: 50
Boston has to be careful that they don't go over the cap on bonuses if they make a trade.

__________________
Philadelphia's Real Alternative
(ynotradio.net)

Stop Feeding the Rumor-Monger

"I wonder if Norstrom has Forsberg's spleen mounted on his wall." - KINGS17

My 50 Favorite Albums of 2014 (sorry it's late)
GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 09:24 PM
  #9
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
FAT SLOB
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 43,300
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Jester was right on everything except for one thing I think. I don't see how the Penguins even replace Malkin's production. With Staal? Then who replaces Staal's 50? Kunitz? Who replaces Kunitz? $8m in cap space?

The Penguins need a rental PPG forward on a UFA contract, and they need to have a healthy Crosby and a healthy Staal. Even Letestu is hurt, and this is a team that won a Stanley Cup and attended another based on center depth alone. Without center depth, their depth is laughable.

what if one of them gets Gagne and turns him against us?

Beef Invictus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-07-2011, 09:49 PM
  #10
CS
Bryzgalov's Blueline
 
CS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Lumberton, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 14,005
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
what if one of them gets Gagne and turns him against us?
I'm afraid of any team with former Flyers, even more afraid if teams have multiple. That said, I doubt Tampa's looking to move Gagne.

CS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 12:36 AM
  #11
LEIFey
Context Matters!
 
LEIFey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 7,336
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to LEIFey
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I'm afraid of any team with former Flyers, even more afraid if teams have multiple. That said, I doubt Tampa's looking to move Gagne.
Especially since they're making the playoffs this year.

LEIFey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 02:25 AM
  #12
sobrien
RAFFLCOPTER
 
sobrien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 7,160
vCash: 555
Should we go take out the knees of Zherdev and Shelley so we have a couple more mill to spend?

Honestly i wouldn't be surprised to see Pittsburgh go hard after Hemsky, Penner, or both. Hemsky-Crosby-Penner would scare the crap outta me.

sobrien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 03:30 AM
  #13
chaosof99*
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Austria
Country: Austria
Posts: 16,614
vCash: 500
Well, what helps is the tight playoff race in the west. With a lot of teams considering themselves contenders for a playoff spot, there shouldn't be too much of a movement at the trade deadline.

Personally I'm not that big a fan of trade deadline acquisitions anyway. It's not that easy to get a player right into the team and function on top performance. I also think that it often sends the wrong message to the team, i.e. "You aren't good enough. You need someone else to help you out." Coming from the General Manager, this is not something good to perceive.

That being said, one shouldn't overlook either team because of those losses. Savard played only 25 games and played sub-par, racking up only 10 point. Still the Bruins kept winning games (mostly due to Thomas). The Pens are very much in the same boat. Malkin was troubled with injuries all season and played below expectations. And if Malkin was healthy, someone else was injured, i.e. Staal. Even without Crosby the Pens won games.

Neither injury is a reason to become arrogant.

chaosof99* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 07:43 AM
  #14
PhillyFlying
F1eyrS
 
PhillyFlying's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Country: United States
Posts: 2,391
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
Pens have $7.6 mill to play with and Bruins have $4 mill.

Personally I don't think the Flyers need to make any major moves at this point, and I hope that both the Pens and Bruins burn through some of their prospects and/or picks.
does all of that $7.6 mill come off the cap hit? seems a bit crazy.

PhillyFlying is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 07:44 AM
  #15
rban*
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,894
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99 View Post
That being said, one shouldn't overlook either team because of those losses. Savard played only 25 games and played sub-par, racking up only 10 point. Still the Bruins kept winning games (mostly due to Thomas). The Pens are very much in the same boat. Malkin was troubled with injuries all season and played below expectations. And if Malkin was healthy, someone else was injured, i.e. Staal. Even without Crosby the Pens won games.

Neither injury is a reason to become arrogant.
Not arrogant, but winning in regular season is very different than POs. Pens kept on winning this year even with Malkin and Crosby out, but I'd be willing to wager a LOT of money they would not win against a tough team in a PO series with both out.

But one question, Malkin makes, what ... 8 mil? He is NOW on LTIR, and half the season is over .... does that mean they have his whole 8 mil freed on cap, or half of 8 mil.. which is 4 mil.

BIG DIFFERENCE there. You can get two desent players with 8 mil, and only one with 4 mil.

BTW: the person who said Pens would be able to 'beat anyone' when Crosby was playing out of his mind ..... that's not true.

One player alone no matter how beastly does not take a team far in the POs. If Malkin is out and the replacement is not that good, it doesnt matter how well Crosby plays.. the Pens will not get far in the POs.

WHY DO hockey fans do this all the time? I've seen so much of this... confusing regular season success with PO glory.

POs are a different beat, almost a different planet, an alternative universe.

rban* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 07:48 AM
  #16
MiD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 424
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sobrien View Post

Honestly i wouldn't be surprised to see Pittsburgh go hard after Hemsky, Penner, or both. Hemsky-Crosby-Penner would scare the crap outta me.
only on HF boards moving +8M and +4M contracts in the summer is easy


Last edited by MiD: 02-08-2011 at 08:41 AM.
MiD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 08:16 AM
  #17
DUHockey9
Registered User
 
DUHockey9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hogwarts
Country: United States
Posts: 4,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyFlying View Post
does all of that $7.6 mill come off the cap hit? seems a bit crazy.
Well Malkin's cap hit is 8.7, so assuming he is placed on LTIR (if he hasn't been already), they will be allowed to exceed the cap by 8.7. Since he is out for the year they won't have to worry about him coming back and having to get back under the cap.

DUHockey9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 09:06 AM
  #18
The Saw Is the Law
Registered User
 
The Saw Is the Law's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: Finland
Posts: 1,892
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rban View Post
But one question, Malkin makes, what ... 8 mil? He is NOW on LTIR, and half the season is over .... does that mean they have his whole 8 mil freed on cap, or half of 8 mil.. which is 4 mil.

BIG DIFFERENCE there. You can get two desent players with 8 mil, and only one with 4 mil.
Remember if they acquire new player at deadline. 8 mil player = 1/4 his salary goes to cap because about 1/4 left regular season. So 4million player -> 1 million to cap, 8 million player 2 million to cap.

Pens have lots of space... Also Bruins.

But Flyers beat 'em!

The Saw Is the Law is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 09:42 AM
  #19
DUHockey9
Registered User
 
DUHockey9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hogwarts
Country: United States
Posts: 4,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Saw Is the Law View Post
Remember if they acquire new player at deadline. 8 mil player = 1/4 his salary goes to cap because about 1/4 left regular season. So 4million player -> 1 million to cap, 8 million player 2 million to cap.

Pens have lots of space... Also Bruins.

But Flyers beat 'em!
That's not the way it works. Proration (i.e. your 1/4 of the season statement) doesn't actually happen unless you are under the cap, and "bank" cap space every single day.

Basically, Malkin's daily hit is $47,282. If you DON'T spend that money during the first half of the season (i.e. you are TRULY under the cap by that amount every single day), you can then EXCEED the daily cap by that amount the 2nd half of the season. Which is where proration comes in. So if you save $47,282 every single day until the mid-point of the year. You can then spend 94,564 the 2nd half of the season; technically exceeding the daily cap, but you've been "banking" money the entire first half. 94,464 equates to almost 17.4 million on a yearly deal.

However, none of that is actually happening, because Malkin WAS on the cap all year (to the best of my knowledge). So they didn't bank any cap space for him. So they can merely exceed the cap by his FULL cap hit every single day (if they so choose). So without entirely knowing the rest of their cap sitaution, the simple answer is, if you place Malkin, making 8.7 yearly on LTIR, you can add another player making 8.7. You don't really have any concerns because Malkin isn't coming back this year.

DUHockey9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 09:42 AM
  #20
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
Boston could certainly make a splash with the draft picks they have. As noted, I don't think the Pens can realistically replace Malkin. Though if they could somehow get 1-2 wingers capable wingers on that team it wouldn't help us any.
Had a conversation with one of my Bruins friends about whether they would make a significant move. I made mention of Iginla who could be had and the Bruins have the ability to get it done. A package of Ryder and the Laffs draft picks would get them certainly close to a deal, maybe a mid-range prospect, but that 1st round pick this year looks to be a top five again.

Bruins will get the most help most likely, but the team to be concerned about is TB. They still also have @$10mill in available cap space and do not have to lose anyone on their roster to get it done.

Cartsiephan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 09:51 AM
  #21
DUHockey9
Registered User
 
DUHockey9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hogwarts
Country: United States
Posts: 4,472
vCash: 500
I don't think what I wrote was very eloquent haha...

To try to be more concise, proration works as follows (making up numbers):

You're allowed to spend $100 over the course of the ENTIRE season (let's say 10 days), but I'm going to keep track of it daily, so you can only spend $10 every day. But you're only spending $8 every day over the first half of the year. So every day, you save $2. After day 5 you acquire a player who is paid $4 a day. So you're daily cap hit is now $12 a day. This is allowed, because you've been saving $2 a day the first half, so you can exceed $10 a day the 2nd half.

So if you were to just look at the YEARLY total with that $4 a day guy at the end of the year, you'd be looking at a $12 a day payroll which equates to $120 over a full season. But it's really $8 + $8 + $8 + $8 + $8 + $12 + $12 + $12 + $12 + $12 = $100.

That is why people talk about prorated contracts when looking at the yearly number. If you are utilizing LTIR AT ALL throughout the year that means you aren't banking ANY cap space, which means you CANNOT add a prorated contract. However, in Malkin's case, he isn't coming back. You are simply allowed to exceed the cap by his full amount. Quite simple.

DUHockey9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 10:02 AM
  #22
Cartsiephan*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,488
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
I don't think what I wrote was very eloquent haha...

To try to be more concise, proration works as follows (making up numbers):

You're allowed to spend $100 over the course of the ENTIRE season (let's say 10 days), but I'm going to keep track of it daily, so you can only spend $10 every day. But you're only spending $8 every day over the first half of the year. So every day, you save $2. After day 5 you acquire a player who is paid $4 a day. So you're daily cap hit is now $12 a day. This is allowed, because you've been saving $2 a day the first half, so you can exceed $10 a day the 2nd half.

So if you were to just look at the YEARLY total with that $4 a day guy at the end of the year, you'd be looking at a $12 a day payroll which equates to $120 over a full season. But it's really $8 + $8 + $8 + $8 + $8 + $12 + $12 + $12 + $12 + $12 = $100.

That is why people talk about prorated contracts when looking at the yearly number. If you are utilizing LTIR AT ALL throughout the year that means you aren't banking ANY cap space, which means you CANNOT add a prorated contract. However, in Malkin's case, he isn't coming back. You are simply allowed to exceed the cap by his full amount. Quite simple.

And in the case of the Pens would need to be back under the cap space by next season, which means they would need to pick up an expiring contract. The Savard issue may be a bit different because his ability to come back is possibly never.

Cartsiephan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 10:08 AM
  #23
KimiFerrari
Messi Is God
 
KimiFerrari's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Montreal, Qc
Country: Argentina
Posts: 3,818
vCash: 500
I took my numbers from capgeeks' "MAX CAP HIT" value.

KimiFerrari is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 10:08 AM
  #24
DUHockey9
Registered User
 
DUHockey9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hogwarts
Country: United States
Posts: 4,472
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
And in the case of the Pens would need to be back under the cap space by next season, which means they would need to pick up an expiring contract. The Savard issue may be a bit different because his ability to come back is possibly never.
Yep, thanks for pointing that out.

Also, in regards to Savard possibly never coming back, people often confuse LTIR as "cap space" and that isn't true. Even if Savard never comes back, and Boston keeps him on LTIR, it's not an ideal situation. They will be allowed to exceed the cap by his 4 million however, if you are utilizing LTIR AT ALL, that means you aren't banking cap space, so you can never take on a pro-rated contract.

Basically, if you don't want to use LTIR if you don't have to; but sometimes you don't have a choice.

DUHockey9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-08-2011, 10:47 AM
  #25
i am dave
Registered User
 
i am dave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Corner of 1st & 1st
Country: United States
Posts: 2,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
And in the case of the Pens would need to be back under the cap space by next season, which means they would need to pick up an expiring contract. The Savard issue may be a bit different because his ability to come back is possibly never.
I might be wrong, but I think even in Savard's case, the Bruins have to "assume" he'll be back next year, so I believe they too have to keep contract length in consideration.

i am dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:20 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.