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Old
02-08-2011, 11:52 AM
  #101
Chapin Landvogt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Moulson - Tavares - Parenteau
Comeau - Bailey - Okposo
Grabner - Nielsen - Hunter
Gillies - Konopka - Martin (maybe AHL?)

Niederreiter - junior
Nugent-Hopkins (or equivalent) - junior
Petrov - stay in Russia, no room for you
Schremp - gone
Joensuu - no room
Rakhshani - no room

These are our forwards this year and next year.

If this is true - does anyone seriously expect anything more than another bottom 5 finish?
Something needs to be done, for sure, in order to improve.

I do think both of Konopka and Parenteau will be re-signed. I also believe Niederreiter has a VERY good chance of being in the regular line-up next season.

Now, this said, there's no reason Snow shouldn't still look for top 6 forwards and then sign or trade for them. We know the UFA route isn't likely gonna produce anything unless he finds YET ANOTHER Moulson/Parenteau type. They're always out there.

What about a trade at the draft to bring in another Okposo-level player? What about a trade of a currently disappointing kid who still has healthy potential?

These routes seem liklier than getting an established player via free agency, right.

As for your analysis aboe, whether under contract or not, Gillies has no business dressing for more than 2 dozen games a season. Once we're better, he won't. Hunter SHOULD have to re-earn himself a spot on this team. His play has diminished with his health. He's certainly not giving us 2 million dollars worth of hockey. Martin SHOULD have spent this season on the farm. What does that mean for next season?

Schremp could be gone and even if he and/or Parenteau are resigned, they shouldn't just be given a job, although I personally see Parenteau easily being able to still do an effective job as the 3rd line RW, even playing with perhaps Nielsen. In any case, they should be seen as depth players for those times when, as is usually the case NYIland, the plethora of injuries come about.

And what if they don't come and we've got 3 or 4 guys up in the box? Great for us. Either they're traded or we ship them off to Europe for the year (see Reinprecht).

No problem with depth signings. It's just gonna be important to see who they bring in on the scoring front.

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02-08-2011, 01:41 PM
  #102
Otto91
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
bringing back Parenteau means this forward lineup will be identical next year.

why are we so tied to these players when the team is a laughing stock? When they are a perennial lottery team?

It's like some of these players are thought of as untouchable?! It's incredible to me.

I know Wang doesn't spend money - or at least Snow won't spend money because he has said many times he's under no constraint to improve the team.

I know the NYI have a bad arena and some UFAs prefer playing elsewhere. Well, that was probably true of Streit and Roloson at one time.

Moulson - Tavares - Parenteau
Comeau - Bailey - Okposo
Grabner - Nielsen - Hunter
Gillies - Konopka - Martin (maybe AHL?)

Niederreiter - junior
Nugent-Hopkins (or equivalent) - junior
Petrov - stay in Russia, no room for you
Schremp - gone
Joensuu - no room
Rakhshani - no room

These are our forwards this year and next year.

If this is true - does anyone seriously expect anything more than another bottom 5 finish?


No Doubt with the above lineup we have more of the same


Without adding a big player these would be my lines


Moulson JT El Nino

Grabner Bailey Okposo

Ullsrtom Franz N. Pap

Martin Konopka Hunter


Eaton Streit

Hamonic Amac

Motteau M Juice/ Hillen

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02-08-2011, 01:56 PM
  #103
Tavares2TheRescue
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Originally Posted by DarkHorse View Post
Also, considering where we are in the season (and have been for so long) we should be holding open auditions. Give Grabner a game on the top line. Put Martin on JT's wing for a whole game. Let's see what the future will bring.
I have no idea if that line would work or not but all I know is that I would love it

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02-08-2011, 02:04 PM
  #104
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As I've said earlier, PAP is the vaccuum cleaner that Al Arbour referenced when discussion Bossy and Trottier. Event he vaccuum cleaner would pick up a few points.

See Moulson's recent quote about them calling PAP "assists". I think that's tongue in cheek.

The guy is a PP specialist and I dare to use the word specialist.

He gets a ton more ice time than he would on any other team. In his normal 8 minutes a night, he'd be producing jack squat.

Put a guy on the ice continually on a 1st line w/your best players and on the PP and he's bound to pickup points.

As another poster indicated, he's Mariusz Czerkawski. Enough talent to pickup some garbage points here and there.

The guy is a role player at best (what role is beyond me) and should not be part of our future.... but he will be, because Wang is cheap and we are the Islanders.

When he re-signs, my stomach will turn.

Should we trade him, that's an indicator that we may be willing to spend. Don't count on it.

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02-08-2011, 02:07 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by cjdv16 View Post
As I've said earlier, PAP is the vaccuum cleaner that Al Arbour referenced when discussion Bossy and Trottier. Event he vaccuum cleaner would pick up a few points.

See Moulson's recent quote about them calling PAP "assists". I think that's tongue in cheek.

The guy is a PP specialist and I dare to use the word specialist.

He gets a ton more ice time than he would on any other team. In his normal 8 minutes a night, he'd be producing jack squat.

Put a guy on the ice continually on a 1st line w/your best players and on the PP and he's bound to pickup points.

As another poster indicated, he's Mariusz Czerkawski. Enough talent to pickup some garbage points here and there.

The guy is a role player at best (what role is beyond me) and should not be part of our future.... but he will be, because Wang is cheap and we are the Islanders.

When he re-signs, my stomach will turn.

Should we trade him, that's an indicator that we may be willing to spend. Don't count on it.
Will it turn even more when Doug Weight is brought back for "veteran presence in the room"?

I still worry about Shawn Bates, Jon Sim, Andy Hilbert, Bruno Gervais and Jack Hillen!

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02-08-2011, 02:07 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
That's right. He's improving. In his FIRST full NHL season.
His FIRST NHL season at the age of 27? excuse me for not starting a petition for the H.O.F. ballot. I'm not so sure he is even playing in the NHL if not for the Isles, he DEFINITELY wouldn't be on the first line or getting 1st PP unit time. I have never seen a player so over rated in my life, his line mates make him an average player, he does nothing for them.




It seems like your despise for the guy isn't allowing you to make a fair assessment.
au contraire, I dont despise any Islanders player. I am just calling it how I see it and what I see is that there is no role on this team for P.A., he was a good stopgap. If teams are interested in his services, the Isles would be crazy not to take what they can get. It is fantasy land to think he can put up the modest numbers he has to this point with less ice time, 2nd unit PP(or none at all)time and surrounded with less talent. We are the worst team in the NHL with him overachieving as part of our first line, we need to upgrade his position by bringing in a player who will make his line mates better not the other way around.
If I thought he could handle a lesser role on the third line I would be all for it but I dont see it, I think all those gaffes and mistakes he gets away with now will end up in the back of our net. He just isn't that important that he is untouchable.

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02-08-2011, 04:25 PM
  #107
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I find it comical that the ones who make their point on why PAP should not be on this team are called out by the PAP club that they don't know what they are talking about. If you want PAP on the team next year for the 3rd line, maybe I ll agree. Just an FYI, he is probably going to have a total of 20 points if he plays 3rd line. Not many players get to practice every game on the first line like PAP does.


If you think PAP is going to help this team...keep dreaming. We do need to rid ourselves of Shremp,Reese,Hillen and Gervais but that is another topic.

He is scoring points because he is getting a lot of minutes and PP time. All in all he is a flawed player at the end of the day. He wasn't stuck in the AHL for no reason at all. If you think otherwise, you are just incorrect plain and simple .

If you think we keep him opposed to trade him ( which i might add, 29 other GM"s knows what PAP is about and he is here till the end) then you are accepting the garbage Snow/Wang are given us. We should want better and that is why you see posters mention he shouldn't be here next year or be on the first line at least.

I have no issue of PAP being an ex-ranger none at all, I just wish he was on their team and not ours.

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02-08-2011, 05:45 PM
  #108
Chapin Landvogt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUNRISE27EMTK View Post
I find it comical that the ones who make their point on why PAP should not be on this team are called out by the PAP club that they don't know what they are talking about. If you want PAP on the team next year for the 3rd line, maybe I ll agree. Just an FYI, he is probably going to have a total of 20 points if he plays 3rd line. Not many players get to practice every game on the first line like PAP does...
I don't think there's any argument from those who recognize his attributes or those who don't that for this team to win, our first line needs to upgraded no later than this summer.

If PA is resigned with the intention of planting him right next to Tavares and Moulson again, then that's getting us nowhere... unless 6 other forwards are magically getting 40-70 points at the same time.

On this, we're pretty much all agreed, right?

Lots of disagreement in how flawed Parenteau is and, I feel, too many people here simply don't want to admit what pros he actually brings to the table. We can't all be watching different games, can we? Another thing is that certain errors he was causing in the first 25-30 games happen less now and Parenteau's output has been steady pretty much throughout the season. So too has the output of his line. Is it ONLY because he gets ample PP time? Is it ONLY because of his linemates? It is ONLY because he's 'unfairly' or 'unrighteously' being given 1st line minutes? Is it ONLY a combination of these three.

I'd love to hear what Moulson, Tavares and Capuano would say to that.

We'll have to agree to disagree as posters to this site, although I know deep down most everyone knows that - unfortunately - he's got more offensive wherewithall than a majority of our players.

Can he play a third line role and still help a team win? I don't think we'll know that this season, but if you're gonna throw out Hunter and Colliton on the third line, chances are Parenteau gives you a tick more. True, his skillset is more fitting for a scoring role, but so too is Comeau, Schremp and Bailey's - and they're currently the third line. In addition, somtimes you just need those 'Kip Millers' types for depth reasons.

Trading Parenteau:
Since I've written a lot in this thread in trying to point out what Parenteau does and that his pointage to date is not simply a result of who he plays with - uhhhh, two other guys who have less than two full seasons of NHL hockey under their belt - I'm now getting the jist that folks think I'm gung-ho about not moving him under any circumstances.

I believe all I've been saying this extent is that I THINK Snow will resign him. I know I've been saying ***Snow should trade any and all upcoming UFAs/RFAs who he does not intend to sign by the trade deadline.***

This goes for Martinek, Konopka, Parenteau, Joensuu, Hillen, Gervais, Reese and surely another guy or two in the system.

If Parenteau goes somewhere for a 3rd, so be it. Then another guy gets an audition somewhere. Maybe the team tries Bailey next to Tavares as so many have hoped to see?

If we're lucky, some team actually offers us a little bit more in order to get a Parenteau+Martinek package for their stretch run and playoffs because they've got all the other ingredients and just need a #6 Dman and a righty QB for their 2nd PP unit???

Could happen.

Could be Vancouver... they just lost Ballard.

Could be Montreal... whose had several blueline injuries and could use another righty shot up front and insurance, should Pacioretty go into a rookie slump of sorts.

Could indeed be Pittsburgh... What if they move a guy like Goligoski and a high pick to Ottawa for Fisher and Kovalev and THEN make the above-mentioned deal to subsequently linder that defensive loss while giving the PP another forward with some modicum of offensive instincts?

Within 2.5 weeks, we'll know. The better a PAP and Martinek play til then, the safer the value of the return.

This all said, unfortunately we are a team that hardly goes 5 games without having a player suffer a near death experience or something, so our laundry list of injuries is probably gonna prevent Snow from just dumping everyone he doesn't plan on resigning. This, in turn, will just get us through the season. It'll be a shame to see guys walk for nothing (which isn't the best asset management), but at least that opens some space to bring in other guys through free agency.

Or resign some of those traded UFAs?

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02-08-2011, 06:20 PM
  #109
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@CIsles - I haven't stopped watching NYI hockey. PAP has cut down on some of his brutal passes. I actually gave him credit for that in some other thread. I also realize that he doesn't have a lot of NHL experience. However, either does Matt Moulson or John Tavares. I rarely see JT jump in front of another player on the ice. I actually see JT gravitate towards open ice to create outlets for jos teammates with the puck. There's a reason why JT and PAP collided on one shift during this season. Matt Moulson is pretty smart about where to go on the ice, but like the rest of this entire line...he isn't very quick. That's also my biggest issue here, that line has an overall skating deficiency...it isn't overly big, it isn't overly fast, and all three players score from in close more than anywhere else. Add to this that PAP's biggest way of getting open is to continuously circle the same area of the offensive zone, and perhaps you'll see why he's prone to large gaps in production.

I'm not the kind of person who doesn't adjust his opinion over time as new evidence becomes available. If PAP didn't continuously remind me of his presence (in a bad way), I wouldn't continuously mention his flaws.

Having read further some of your arguments...we'll have to agree to disagree about much of PAP. I think he's a prime beneficiary of being on the line that he's on (even with its flaws) and getting huge chunks of important ice-time. I actually attempted to statistically prove what I saw with my own observations earlier in the season. The points are still coming in much the same way.

Forgive me, but I think Kyle Okposo is a better forward that we have available.

I'd take the Grabner-Nielsen-Okposo line over PAP's line every day of the week and twice on Sunday. That line will produce while keeping the puck out of its own net.

I do think it'd be ridiculous not to trade this player for a significant asset. (I did mention in this thread that I wouldn't bother for a 5th rounder or similar prospect/player.) I think this way, because I don't think he's going to get much better. I could very well be wrong. I'll gladly eat crow if PAP becomes a complete hockey player, or continues to produce in a lesser role on a team with as little offensive depth as ours.

OK, I actually missed part of the game because of this. I won't be spending much more time debating this issue. I've said what I believe to be true. I believe it to still be relevant. I don't believe my past observations are coloring my future observations.

2-0 Leafs. Glorious. (Oh, and they're 2-for-2 shots-goals.)
(By the way, one forward back on the last play...Matt Moulson.) (And look at how long it took PAP to actually move from his position in front of the net. When he did, his teammate finally had an outlet and he had an opportunity.)

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Mitch

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02-08-2011, 07:22 PM
  #110
Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
@CIsles - I haven't stopped watching NYI hockey.

....

(And look at how long it took PAP to actually move from his position in front of the net. When he did, his teammate finally had an outlet and he had an opportunity.)

,
Mitch
Welp, after all of the posts in the last 18 hours or so (and not just between us), I had a hunch that folks were gonna watch tonight's game and start analyzing PAP's game/errors. At least there hasn't yet been a shift-by-shift Parenteauthon watch...

To your point above, let's just be fair: whichever of PAP, Tavares and Moulson is the third man high, that player just about always chugs to be the first forward coming back. Obviously, when guys go to the net or position themselves as a passing station down low, you don't expect them to necessarily be the first guy coming back. We all know that.

In general, I've already seen two or three good things and two or three bad things from Parenteau in the first period (am currently at the 19 minute mark - watching online and can pause it), including an unforced giveaway or two.

We have a few more games to see him and I'm sure both of us (and others too) will see some of what you've talking about and some of what I've been talking about.

Considering we all know that he's very likely not a long-term solution here, I'm kind of shocked (at myself as well) that we've spent so much time discussing him.

In conclusion, I'd like to have my post before yours (in response to SUNRISE27EMTK) serve as my way of 'checking out' of this discussion - things are already getting repetitive. We'll see in a few weeks time if he's turned into another asset, left to conclude the season or if he's even resigned la Jurcina and Moulson.


Last edited by Chapin Landvogt: 02-08-2011 at 07:46 PM.
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02-08-2011, 08:50 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Welp, after all of the posts in the last 18 hours or so (and not just between us), I had a hunch that folks were gonna watch tonight's game and start analyzing PAP's game/errors. At least there hasn't yet been a shift-by-shift Parenteauthon watch...

To your point above, let's just be fair: whichever of PAP, Tavares and Moulson is the third man high, that player just about always chugs to be the first forward coming back. Obviously, when guys go to the net or position themselves as a passing station down low, you don't expect them to necessarily be the first guy coming back. We all know that.

In general, I've already seen two or three good things and two or three bad things from Parenteau in the first period (am currently at the 19 minute mark - watching online and can pause it), including an unforced giveaway or two.

We have a few more games to see him and I'm sure both of us (and others too) will see some of what you've talking about and some of what I've been talking about.

Considering we all know that he's very likely not a long-term solution here, I'm kind of shocked (at myself as well) that we've spent so much time discussing him.

In conclusion, I'd like to have my post before yours (in response to SUNRISE27EMTK) serve as my way of 'checking out' of this discussion - things are already getting repetitive. We'll see in a few weeks time if he's turned into another asset, left to conclude the season or if he's even resigned la Jurcina and Moulson.
He's out there a lot. So we'll notice these things more often. Like I said, if he wasn't playing as an important piece, it wouldn't bother me as much. If he wasn't playing next to John Tavares, it wouldn't bother me as much. If he didn't have to score from a similar area of the ice as JT and Moulson, it wouldn't bother me that much. Adding all of those things together? It kinda bothers me.

Want to give him credit? He had a few hits. He hustled. He got a secondary assist on the PP. None of this is new. Still doesn't make him a top-6 forward. To put it another way, who did the most work on PAP's assist? Moulson calling for the puck and finishing in front? Tavares' no look on the tape pass? PAP is often not even in the view when a goal is scored. That happens a lot on both goals for and against. (Not that his place should always be in view, but it's pretty amazing how often he's not coming back down low.)

OK, more than enough of PAP (in more ways than one. )(He did play 18+ minutes. I'd imagine that's the major issue for many of us. Of course, we're pretty good at putting our players in positions that they shouldn't be in.)

,
Mitch

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Old
02-08-2011, 09:23 PM
  #112
Chapin Landvogt
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Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
Want to give him credit? He had a few hits. He hustled. He got a secondary assist on the PP. None of this is new. Still doesn't make him a top-6 forward. To put it another way, who did the most work on PAP's assist? Moulson calling for the puck and finishing in front? Tavares' no look on the tape pass? PAP is often not even in the view when a goal is scored. That happens a lot on both goals for and against. (Not that his place should always be in view, but it's pretty amazing how often he's not coming back down low.)
I didn't think he even touched that puck. Bailey kept it in and coralled (sp?) it down to Tavares. I knew it went past Parenteau on the way, but I thought it jumped over his stick. Did he really get a piece of that?

Would rather see the point given to Bailey, who did a lot of work to keep that puck in the zone and then in play. Tonight was an active game for Bailey (thankfully), although I don't know what he was waiting around for on Kaberle's goal. I've seen him do that on three goals against that I can think right now.

In general though, I did think this was one Parenteau's poorer games. More minuses than pluses.

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02-08-2011, 09:51 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
I didn't think he even touched that puck. Bailey kept it in and coralled (sp?) it down to Tavares. I knew it went past Parenteau on the way, but I thought it jumped over his stick. Did he really get a piece of that?

Would rather see the point given to Bailey, who did a lot of work to keep that puck in the zone and then in play. Tonight was an active game for Bailey (thankfully), although I don't know what he was waiting around for on Kaberle's goal. I've seen him do that on three goals against that I can think right now.

In general though, I did think this was one Parenteau's poorer games. More minuses than pluses.
I just feel that there are more of those than there are the opposite. That's not who you want near the top of the lineup.

OK, I think the horse has been beaten to death, resurrected, and then beaten to death again (like our goalies.)

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