Value of: Francois Beauchemin to Vancouver

[rusty890]

Originally Posted by jfried

Neither team has any top teir defencemen. Schenn and Edler are at very similar levels.



To be a legitimate proven #1 defenceman, you've gotta be able to succeed when you don't have as great a supporting cast as Vancouver does and be able to consistently take over games. Edler is a really good young defenceman, and a beneficiary of playing on a deep blueline much like Schenn in Toronto.

I have never understood this line of reasoning. How do you know he is the beneficiary of playing on a deep defense but not the largest contributor to that defense being good?

[NFITO]

Originally Posted by rusty890

I have never understood this line of reasoning. How do you know he is the beneficiary of playing on a deep defense but not the largest contributor to that defense being good?

same reason we know that Lidstrom and Pronger aren't actually legit #1 dmen... they play on top end teams and are sheltered by the great players they have around them... obviously they shouldn't get any credit at all for being good, because how could you possibly argue that they are legit #1 if you're going to argue that you need to be on bad teams in order to prove you are?

Anyone that thinks that Edler isn't a #1 dman this season just plainly hasn't watched this team play enough... it's not surprising that the poster here doesn't think he is - classic example of a poster who ignores most of the rest of the league and overrated everything Leaf.

Edler has been an absolute star on the Canucks blueline this season... if you can't see that, then you're ignoring his actual play on the ice and just looking at stats - and then ignoring all the stats and looking at the rest of the lineup.

*And before people suggest I'm trying to compare Edler to Lidstrom or Pronger, I'm not... Edler, IMO, still needs to prove he's a legitimate top 10-15 dman by playing at this level over the course of more than just one season... but in the half season of work he's put in this season, I find it hard to believe that there are 10-15 dmen in the entire league who have been better than him this season... and given his consistent and exponential development to date, I don't see how it's just a half-season blimp where he'll revert to being the very good #2-3 dman he has been in the past couple seasons... to me, it looks like a 24 YO dman who's continuing to develop into that legitimate #1 guy... but again, it'll take more than half a season to prove he is just that... though, anyone who argues he hasn't played at that level this season - surrounded by a strong team or not - just hasn't watched him play enough.

[seanlinden]

Originally Posted by rusty890

I have never understood this line of reasoning. How do you know he is the beneficiary of playing on a deep defense but not the largest contributor to that defense being good?

Because he's just not that good. He doesn't play the toughest minutes and just happens to be the guy that plays the most on Vancouver's very evenly distributed blueline.

[Bgav]

Originally Posted by jfried

Because he's just not that good. He doesn't play the toughest minutes and just happens to be the guy that plays the most on Vancouver's very evenly distributed blueline.

[Variant]

Jfried, How do you get from describing Edler as a "Very good young defenceman who fits into the role of a #2/3 guy on a traditionally built blueline" to "he's just not that good"

[ProstheticConscience]

Seriously guys, why are you even bothering?

The Canucks are just magically wonderful, and any scrub plugged into their system would obviously have terrific numbers. The individual players themselves in no way, shape or form contribute to their own good numbers or good plays made while they're on the ice. The defence is good because of the good forwards. The goaltending is good because of the good defence. The forwards are good because of the terrific coaching, and the coaching is good because the players on the ice are making them look good. Any strength in one area is easily explained away by a strength in another, forming a neat circular argument. With the Leafs, it works the other way. A deficiency in one area is blamed on a deficiency in another. Remember, we're not that far away from it all being Toskala's fault.

And you're trying to argue with a guy who thinks Hamhuis = Beauchemin and Schenn = Edler. I have no idea who he thinks actually does play the "tough minutes" on the Vancouver blueline.

And for about the tenth time, we don't want Beauchemin.

[rusty890]

Originally Posted by jfried

Because he's just not that good. He doesn't play the toughest minutes and just happens to be the guy that plays the most on Vancouver's very evenly distributed blueline.

Nice try at minimizing Edler's contribution.There is no "just happens" about it. He gets to play the most because he is a #1 defensemen.

[Diamonddog01]

Originally Posted by jfried

The way that Luke Schenn has improved his puckmoving, he could easily become one much like Edler has the potential to.

A guy who was on pace for 50 points, and 12th in scoring for defenceman a week (49 games into the season) ago prior to being injured has the potential to be a good puckmover?

Seriously, you're becoming a laughing stock at this point.

[seanlinden]

Originally Posted by Diamonddog01

A guy who was on pace for 50 points, and 12th in scoring for defenceman a week (49 games into the season) ago prior to being injured has the potential to be a good puckmover?

Seriously, you're becoming a laughing stock at this point.

Edler is already a great puckmover -- he has the potential to evolve into a dominant #1 defenceman, like Schenn does.

Seriously, you're becoming a laughing stock at this point.

[ManoWarrior]

Originally Posted by jfried

The way that Luke Schenn has improved his puckmoving, he could easily become one much like Edler has the potential to.

You've actually said before that Schenn is a really bad puckmover and no where near the level of Beauchemin in that regard. After watching him play a fair bit this season, he actually has a decent 1st pass and isn't that much worse in that category than Francois "Brent Burns" Beauchemin.

[seanlinden]

Originally Posted by ManoWarrior

You've actually said before that Schenn is a really bad puckmover and no where near the level of Beauchemin in that regard. After watching him play a fair bit this season, he actually has a decent 1st pass and isn't that much worse in that category than Francois "Brent Burns" Beauchemin.

He isn't as good as Beauchemin, he has been rapidly improving.

[last row purple]

Originally Posted by jfried

He isn't as good as Beauchemin, he has been rapidly improving.

Off topic: Who was the better Leafs goaltender... Raycroft of Toskala?