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Why do the Rangers have the same problems, year, after year, after year, after year?

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Old
02-09-2011, 03:36 AM
  #26
Ola
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Originally Posted by Machinehead View Post
This team can't score, has a bantam-level powerplay, and has no big bodies to keep the opponent out from in front. These are the exact same problems the Rangers have had every year, since I'm knee-high to Theo Fleury. Why aren't they ever addressed?
I think we have a roster now that should be able to produce over the course of the season when healty.

Torts needs to prove that he can get it done on the ice in the post-lockout NHL. He have not done so in his career so far, and have had quite many trys.

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02-09-2011, 03:40 AM
  #27
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The NYR have the 8th best defense in the entire NHL and have the youngest blueline

this is good news

If Eminger leaves as a UFA then Dan Girardi is the old man at 27 years old.

hockey is not a sport of 2 or 3 superstars who win the championship (like basketball)

it is a team of 20

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02-09-2011, 06:32 AM
  #28
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They're getting there..it takes time. They need 1-2 more scorers and one of the current guys or prospects needs to score 30-35 goals which hopefully either Kreider or Thomas or even Grachev will provide.

The nasty Dman could come with McLIrath, Pashnian, or V-Tank who I'd like to see get a shot this year.

More two-way guys in the Swedes (Hagelin and Fasth) along with Horak and Borque who have a chance to make an impact.

Finally, maybe Werek becomes the Rangers poor man's Holmstrom and who knows what's up with Yogan when he can get healthy.

Next season I expect Hagelin, Krieder, Werek, Horak, Borque, and Pashnian all to join the organization.

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02-09-2011, 06:48 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by donpaulo View Post
The NYR have the 8th best defense in the entire NHL and have the youngest blueline

this is good news

If Eminger leaves as a UFA then Dan Girardi is the old man at 27 years old.

hockey is not a sport of 2 or 3 superstars who win the championship (like basketball)

it is a team of 20
At the same time, the defense under Torts have become a lot worse then it was before he got here.

Up front, he we still have holes looking at our lineup from teh pre-lockout formula for winning a cup, but truth to be told, you do not see many teams out there with the depth we have when everyone is healty.

Torts also needs to get Gabby going.

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02-09-2011, 07:12 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Chariot View Post
Those teams were HORRENDOUS going into those lottery drafts. I would say those fanbases earned their heady picks. Rangers are just never that bad.

Rangers got lucky with Lundqvist. They will have to get lucky again
It's not always luck. The Rangers have good scouting. The Red Wings have... incredible scouting. Zetterberg: 7th round pick. 170 players were drafted before Datsyuk in his draft year. They are the Crosby and Malkin of Detroit, and while neither is quite as lethal as Crosby, they're actually a more complete duo than Crosby + Malkin are, in my opinion (meaning all areas of the game). All things considered except for age, I think I'd rather have Zetterberg and Datsyuk as my 1-2 over Crosby and Malkin. I'm sure many will disagree, but even if you have to think about it for a second when comparing to Crosby+Malkin, that goes to show how amazing it is to draft game-breaking franchise players like that soooo late in the draft. Now, realistically, I certainly doubt that the Wings' scouts knew just how good either player would be in the NHL, because if they did, they would've drafted them earlier to make sure they got them, but that's still an amazing job to take those guys when it looks like they may have gone UNDRAFTED in their years if it weren't for Detroit. Truly incredible!

With that said, our drafting has gotten exponentially better in the past 3-4 years. I also think it's important and applaud-worthy that the Rangers have made a point to draft players with strong character and leadership qualities, rather than just the sexiest most skilled prospects. It is going to make a big difference. It's already showing.

The Jessiman draft was a disaster. But that's hindsight for ya. There were other teams who would've made the Jessiman mistake shortly after us if we hadn't. And plenty of teams are kicking themselves and wishing they had taken a Parise or Richards or Getzlaf earlier. There's nothing you can do about it except try to learn from your mistakes and continue to find players who fit the newly-seeded Rangers identity that you can build this team around for years to come. We're certainly moving in the right direction, and like I've said many times, I strongly believe that we're a lot closer than a lot of people think. The best is yet to come, fellas. Sit back and enjoy.

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02-09-2011, 07:18 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
At the same time, the defense under Torts have become a lot worse then it was before he got here.

Up front, he we still have holes looking at our lineup from teh pre-lockout formula for winning a cup, but truth to be told, you do not see many teams out there with the depth we have when everyone is healty.

Torts also needs to get Gabby going.
Gabby needs to get Gabby going. I believe Prospal is going to make a difference though. Us fans owe him (Vinny) a little more patience. We criticize Drury so much for being overpaid. Prospal was severely underpaid last season, and he took significantly less money than he could've got on the open market to stay here this year. He's been back for what? three games? He's a gamer. I'm confident he can be a big-time catalyst for our powerplay and rekindle that chemistry with Gabby that we witnessed last season. It wouldn't hurt to add Kaberle for a 2nd round pick and a LOW-LEVEL prospect (not Grachev or any of our top tier youngsters), but that's about as high as I'd go.

Weise + 2nd (which becomes a 1st if he resigns or if we make the ECF) for Kaberle is a very good deal for Toronto, they should take it and run.

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02-09-2011, 08:12 AM
  #32
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Pretty simple. The team hasn't developed a legitimate franchise player outside of the goaltending position since Brian Leetch, and it has been decades since the team has developed a legitimate first line forward. DECADES.

For whatever the reason, whether it's Dolan, Sather or a combination, these people refuse to do what is necessary to build a winner. They don't see the need to build a contending team, or they simply don't know how to. And, of course, as a previous poster mentioned, this doesn't seem to bother the majority of the fanbase, who fall all over themselves to praise the arrival of complimentary players and role players instead of being outraged at the fact that they're constantly being asked to pay more and more for the same inferior product, year after year. I've never seen hockey fans of an original six franchise get so excited over average bottom six forwards. I can't fathom how professional hockey fans get excited over a team that, year after year, plays beer league style hockey because they don't have enough talent to compete any other way.

I've said it all year, the only chance this club has of being a Stanley Cup contender at anytime in the near future is the possibility that a 31 year old free agent will sign with us this summer. That's how poorly managed this franchise is. They chance what should be their number one objective to an event that has so many variables.

You make it seem like elite superstar franchise forwards are so easy to come by.

The only way to draft one is to get lucky (Zetterberg for example) or finish so badly in a season that you get the #1 pick when a Stamkos, Crosby, or Ovechkin are draft eligible.

The Rangers refuse to lose onpurpose, so they won't get #1 overall.

And getting lucky with the other picks is just that.

They've drafted extremely well. They're building a team.

If the only way for them to get the elite forward is by UFA, how is that pathetic?

The Islanders are a perennial top 5 pick. How close are they to winning the Cup? What about the Oilers?

Have Tavares and Hall fixed those franchises?

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02-09-2011, 08:51 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
You make it seem like elite superstar franchise forwards are so easy to come by.

The only way to draft one is to get lucky (Zetterberg for example) or finish so badly in a season that you get the #1 pick when a Stamkos, Crosby, or Ovechkin are draft eligible.

The Rangers refuse to lose onpurpose, so they won't get #1 overall.
Then they refuse to do what is necessary to not only provide the fanbase with a superior product on the ice, but to provide them with the best possible team.

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And getting lucky with the other picks is just that.
The Red Wings didn't get lucky with Zetterberg. Most teams just never devoted enough scouting to Russia and Sweden. Zetterberg, Lundqvist, Datsyuk...IMO, it is HIGHLY unlikwly that we'll see players that good get drafted that late ever again. Everyone is scouting those nations now, because now everyone realizes the value of it.

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They've drafted extremely well. They're building a team.
You think every player in the system is a star in the making. I don't. They are building a team. A team full of second and third liners that isn't good enough to compete for a Stanley Cup. A team that is inferior to numerous teams around the league that are just as young but far more talented.

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If the only way for them to get the elite forward is by UFA, how is that pathetic?
It's not the only way. They just won't make a sacrifice, even though they inadvertently have sacrificed season after season to mediocrity.

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The Islanders are a perennial top 5 pick. How close are they to winning the Cup? What about the Oilers?

Have Tavares and Hall fixed those franchises?
Tavares has been there for two seasons, Hall as been there for less than one. The Rangers have every single advantage in the world. The Islanders and Oilers have pretty much none. In one way or another, both of those franchises have the deck stacked completely against them. It's a terrible comparison.

And having a perennial top 5 pick isn't enough. It takes competent management, as well. The Oilers were terribly operated over the last few years. Numerous awful personnel decisions. The Islanders, you know the story.

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02-09-2011, 08:53 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by FreeHat View Post
Good post. I feel every year the fanbase on here gets so excited on our bright future, and while yes this is justifiable in some ways, usually it comes down to skaters with 3rd line potential. Look back 4-5 years ago, everybody was absolutely stoked for our amazing future with names such as Prucha, Dawes, Immonen, Byers, Sangs, Korps, Montoya, Moore, A. Giroux, Baranka. And while guys like Staal, Callahan, Girardi and Dubinsky have panned out into solid NHLers, there was/is nothing that is going to put our team into the next level, skaters that teams like Pittsburgh, Chicago, Wash, Detroit, TB, Philly, even NJ have been able to draft/develop. Despite this, I prefer the current state of the Rangers then 10 years ago where they were freely trading their future away for overpaid, over-the-hill veterans.

While Henrik may be the one homegrown legit franchise player the Rangers currently have, goaltending no longer gets you to the finals, just ask Chicago, Philly, Detroit, etc.
1 it's not just about skaters with 2rd line potential. Gabs, Zuke, Dubs, Step, AA. Sorry but that's not JUST 3rd line. To be frank when you also have prob the best 3rd in hockey it helps too and we've had that. Theyw ere equal to what gabs did last year. Can't overrate what they did this year.

2 This is where most fans feel much much better. MANY of the mistakes of the past aren't being repeated and it bore fruit this year so it's warranted to think this can be an upward trend. Few people guarantee anything around here including myself but I certainly don't see how anyone could argue the club hasn't taken a few big strides in the right direction with future strides in sight.

3 I disagree with this heavily. because those teams didn't need a goalie it means a goalie can't be needed? The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence but damn the absence of evidence could also mean that there's no evidence b/c it's not true. (woah) And we aren't JUST goalie anyway. If Pitt had Hank instead of Fleury they would have lost? if Detroit had Hank they lose?

Your stance is presented as a LOT more reasonable and open minded than Sting's though (not saying much) I actually agree with several of your points but only as possibilities not guarantees which goes for my own points as well. All of this is just us guessing based on trends and history whether it's ancient or recent

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02-09-2011, 09:05 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Then they refuse to do what is necessary to not only provide the fanbase with a superior product on the ice, but to provide them with the best possible team.

Incorrect. They refuse to do what YOU feel is the best possible team but how is giving the fans the worst team in the league (to get 1 overall) = to giving the best? it's not a guarantee but it has worked so while your point is valid and makes sense it also is not the be all end all. it possibly lands you a future all star that's all to present it any other way is disingenuous at best.

The Red Wings didn't get lucky with Zetterberg. Most teams just never devoted enough scouting to Russia and Sweden. Zetterberg, Lundqvist, Datsyuk...IMO, it is HIGHLY unlikwly that we'll see players that good get drafted that late ever again. Everyone is scouting those nations now, because now everyone realizes the value of it.

So you're saying there will never be a Parise again? late round 1sts, 2nds, 3rds. Come on there will always be guys who go well over their projections. maybe not a 7th steal like you're saying but you're completely leaving out steals in earlier rounds or late 1sts and that's important to note. We have to be the ones to catch lightning in a bottle which is what every team tries to do and generally 31 teams every year fail if you wanna be so black and white about it.

You think every player in the system is a star in the making. I don't. They are building a team. A team full of second and third liners that isn't good enough to compete for a Stanley Cup. A team that is inferior to numerous teams around the league that are just as young but far more talented.

Define star. If you mean Crosby i don't see anyone ever stating we get a 100 pt crosby guy. i've seen people talk plenty about 60-80 pt guys and that's reasonable to expect out of 1 or two guys we have in the system.

It's not the only way. They just won't make a sacrifice, even though they inadvertently have sacrificed season after season to mediocrity.

This is speculation at best but it's your opinion and you're entitled to it but it's just not an absolute truth.

Tavares has been there for two seasons, Hall as been there for less than one. The Rangers have every single advantage in the world. The Islanders and Oilers have pretty much none. In one way or another, both of those franchises have the deck stacked completely against them. It's a terrible comparison.

And having a perennial top 5 pick isn't enough. It takes competent management, as well. The Oilers were terribly operated over the last few years. Numerous awful personnel decisions. The Islanders, you know the story.
OK so then how did the Pens get so good? What could the Rangers have done differently? Purposely not drafted Dubs, Cally, Staal, Hank, Step, AA, Sauer.? So they could tank and hope they get Stamkos and/.or tavares? Come on this makes no sense. You're advocating a tank. Those are the teams that tanked. it's a comparison you inadvertantly bring up. Dunno how you rationally dismiss it here. The truth is the draft has to build your team. You're completely discounting drafting well outside the top of the draft but it can work. A FA can compliment a well built team just as a top pick can. Yet you talk in circles here like it isn't then say it is...

.

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02-09-2011, 09:14 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Pretty simple. The team hasn't developed a legitimate franchise player outside of the goaltending position since Brian Leetch, and it has been decades since the team has developed a legitimate first line forward. DECADES.

For whatever the reason, whether it's Dolan, Sather or a combination, these people refuse to do what is necessary to build a winner. They don't see the need to build a contending team, or they simply don't know how to. And, of course, as a previous poster mentioned, this doesn't seem to bother the majority of the fanbase, who fall all over themselves to praise the arrival of complimentary players and role players instead of being outraged at the fact that they're constantly being asked to pay more and more for the same inferior product, year after year. I've never seen hockey fans of an original six franchise get so excited over average bottom six forwards. I can't fathom how professional hockey fans get excited over a team that, year after year, plays beer league style hockey because they don't have enough talent to compete any other way.

I've said it all year, the only chance this club has of being a Stanley Cup contender at anytime in the near future is the possibility that a 31 year old free agent will sign with us this summer. That's how poorly managed this franchise is. They chance what should be their number one objective to an event that has so many variables.
OK so come out and say it then. "nothing the organization has done the last 5 years will result in even making it to the finals or even a top 3 seed at any point in the next 10 years." If you can say that with a straight face then good for you. if you can't it's b/c you're full of crap and know like anyone with eyes knows that this organization has stepped in the right direction. Yes with a very real chance of failure and mismanagment but right now if the org stays the course things should be good. If this team even once wins their division or makes it to the finals I dunno how you could be surprised. The organization has done the right things overall the last 5 years and it's showing. Dunno how you rationally manage to generalize this team as "just" anything. There's plenty of talent here now and if things continue to go the right way the talent will grow and add onto itself with or without a FA. If you feel this isn't true than that's ok but it's pretty unreasonable and silly to attack fans and ownership at once because the team doesn't do what you want.

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02-09-2011, 09:27 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by deriik2020 View Post
OK so then how did the Pens get so good? What could the Rangers have done differently? Purposely not drafted Dubs, Cally, Staal, Hank, Step, AA, Sauer.? So they could tank and hope they get Stamkos and/.or tavares? Come on this makes no sense. You're advocating a tank. Those are the teams that tanked. it's a comparison you inadvertantly bring up.


There's nothing inadvertent about it. Obviously I'm advocating a tank, or at least I did, when it was still a viable option for this team.

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Incorrect. They refuse to do what YOU feel is the best possible team but how is giving the fans the worst team in the league (to get 1 overall) = to giving the best? it's not a guarantee but it has worked so while your point is valid and makes sense it also is not the be all end all. it possibly lands you a future all star that's all to present it any other way is disingenuous at best.
No team that has won a Stanley Cup since the lockout has done so without undergoing a tremendous rebuild first. Zero. Not one. Until that changes, my opinion (which is based on nothing more than common sense and logic, the likes of which I just presented) would seem to be the valid one.

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So you're saying there will never be a Parise again? late round 1sts, 2nds, 3rds. Come on there will always be guys who go well over their projections. maybe not a 7th steal like you're saying but you're completely leaving out steals in earlier rounds or late 1sts and that's important to note. We have to be the ones to catch lightning in a bottle which is what every team tries to do and generally 31 teams every year fail if you wanna be so black and white about it.
No, I'm not saying that at all. You are saying that because you have an agenda to attack me but you can't actually argue things that I say without contorting them to such a degree that they completely lack resemblance to my original point. I said nothing about late first, second or third round picks. Your point is completely irrelevant.

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Dunno how you rationally dismiss it here. The truth is the draft has to build your team. You're completely discounting drafting well outside the top of the draft but it can work.
I've done nothing of the sort. You are a liar. I never said anything about drafting well outside of the top of the draft.

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This is speculation at best but it's your opinion and you're entitled to it but it's just not an absolute truth.
It's not an opinion at all. It's fact. The Rangers have not been more than a mediocre team since the 1990s. The standings support that statement. Also, what I said was simply quoting, almost word for word, what someone who is currently a member of an NHL team's front office, one with strong ties to the Ranger organization, said to me less than a year ago.

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A FA can compliment a well built team just as a top pick can. Yet you talk in circles here like it isn't then say it is...
Once again, you are a blatant liar. I never said anything of the sort. Please address things that I actually say rather than accusing me of saying things that I didn't. What I said was that leaving the entire possibility of contending for a Stanley Cup to the chance that ONE player may or may not reach free agency is a terrible way to manage a team because if the player does not reach free agency or sign with your team, you are, in effect, screwed.

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02-09-2011, 09:36 AM
  #38
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I don't know. For me, this is the most optimistic I've been as a Ranger fan in ages. We have a good, young team now and it's only going to get better with experience.

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02-09-2011, 09:38 AM
  #39
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If we win 4 in a row... everyone is happy and praising the "rebuild"....

now we can't score, or win, so the sky is falling...

the only elite skater we have plays 1 good game out of 10.

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02-09-2011, 09:39 AM
  #40
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OK so come out and say it then. "nothing the organization has done the last 5 years will result in even making it to the finals or even a top 3 seed at any point in the next 10 years."
That's not what I said. That's what YOU said.

Sorry, but I'm not going to say what you want me to say so that you can manage to discredit me. I understand that the only way you can argue with me is to accuse me of saying things that I didn't say, but you can't possibly expect me to agree to be complacent in it, can you?

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If you can say that with a straight face then good for you. if you can't it's b/c you're full of crap and know like anyone with eyes knows that this organization has stepped in the right direction. Yes with a very real chance of failure and mismanagment but right now if the org stays the course things should be good.
I never said the organization didn't improve. Things should be good is a meaningless, vague, and completely subjective statement, since the majority of the people here think that good = 6-8 place and 20-25 goal role players. That's not my definition of good.

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If this team even once wins their division or makes it to the finals I dunno how you could be surprised. The organization has done the right things overall the last 5 years and it's showing.
The right things according to who? You? I see, so later in this post, you attack me for being unhappy that the organization doesn't do what I want, but when they do what you want, it's the "right things." What an incredible hypocrite.

I don't think that the organization has done the right things overall in the last 5 years. What the organization has done in the last 5 things is gone from doing the completely wrong things over and over again, to doing enough to be decent. Essentially, the things that any competently run team does. The right things, which is doing whatever is necessary to acquire elite young talent, they have refused to do, which is why today, they are, once again, a bubble playoff team, just as they were last year, just as they were the year before, and just like they will be next year if they fail to acquire Brad Richards.

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Dunno how you rationally manage to generalize this team as "just" anything. There's plenty of talent here now and if things continue to go the right way the talent will grow and add onto itself with or without a FA. If you feel this isn't true than that's ok but it's pretty unreasonable and silly to attack fans and ownership at once because the team doesn't do what you want.
What I want is simply to follow a formula, that to this date, is far and away the best route to success. So please stop trying to pass off what "I" want as some sort of radical nonsense. And it's not what "I" want. It's what many others want, as well. But of course you won't quote those posts, just mine. Again, "there's plenty of talent here" means absolutely nothing, because obviously, there isn't as much talent here as there is on other teams. If there was, we'd be doing a lot better.

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02-09-2011, 09:59 AM
  #41
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Don't say the J-word
People forget about Cherepanov as well. He would have been here and playing for us now. The kid was almost as talented as Evgeni Malkin and there is no reason to believe he could not have been a super star in this league.

Loosing Chere, the speciman pick, the montoya pick at 6th overall...

People really underestimate how bad those have hurt our organization.

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02-09-2011, 10:01 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
You make it seem like elite superstar franchise forwards are so easy to come by.

The only way to draft one is to get lucky (Zetterberg for example) or finish so badly in a season that you get the #1 pick when a Stamkos, Crosby, or Ovechkin are draft eligible.

The Rangers refuse to lose onpurpose, so they won't get #1 overall.

And getting lucky with the other picks is just that.

They've drafted extremely well. They're building a team.

If the only way for them to get the elite forward is by UFA, how is that pathetic?

The Islanders are a perennial top 5 pick. How close are they to winning the Cup? What about the Oilers?

Have Tavares and Hall fixed those franchises?
No, and we had a very good potential one. Cherepanov if successful in the NHL had the chance to be a 90pt player. That is a super star to me.

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02-09-2011, 10:02 AM
  #43
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Seriously, who was the last 1st line forward this team developed? I honestly can't think of any. Maybe Kovalev, Savard, Weight, and Amonte, but they were all traded. I guess Dubinsky has a good chance at being a legitimate 1st line LW, but I don't think it's set in stone as to whether that happens of not.

Wow. The more you think about it, the more depressing it is.

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02-09-2011, 10:09 AM
  #44
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Albatross contracts getting in the way.

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02-09-2011, 10:14 AM
  #45
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The more I think of it, I don't see us winning any cup with Gaborik.... ever. He's not a winner... I can tell, already.

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02-09-2011, 10:17 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by hightide85 View Post
The more I think of it, I don't see us winning any cup with Gaborik.... ever. He's not a winner... I can tell, already.
Lol, k.

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02-09-2011, 10:18 AM
  #47
Fire Sather
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
I agree, but it was a big gamble and as much as I loved Jagr bringing us back into the playoffs, it really didn't do much to help propel us.
I do think we're finally seeing a team form that can be a contender, but we're still fixing issues that have plagued us because it takes more than a few years to develop an elite PMD or number 1 center, and we've only really started dedicating the club to trying to do so 5 years ago.

And of course, Jessiman.

Did nothing for us, other than bring back respectibality back to the franchise.

Why does everyone think you can just *tank and win*? It is a process...

Rangers were a joke for almost a decade when Jagr came and did all that nothing..

Now we are a respected franchise with a chance at the playoffs every season.

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02-09-2011, 10:20 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Did nothing for us, other than bring back respectibality back to the franchise.
How does getting one of the greatest players of all-time for basically nothing simply because we have every economic advantage, using him to be decent for a couple of years, and then returning back to mediocrity, make us respectable?

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Now we are a respected franchise with a chance at the playoffs every season.
We could have not traded for him, and actually undergone a real rebuild, and by this point, had a chance to win the Stanley Cup every season.

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Old
02-09-2011, 10:21 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Zuccarello Awesome View Post
Lol, k.
you disagree? if so, I'd love to hear your argument why you think he's a winner....or what he has done so far in his career that tells you that.

Has he maximized his talents?

Does he make the players around him, better?

NO, he doesn't.

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02-09-2011, 10:36 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Did nothing for us, other than bring back respectibality back to the franchise.

Why does everyone think you can just *tank and win*? It is a process...

Rangers were a joke for almost a decade when Jagr came and did all that nothing..

Now we are a respected franchise with a chance at the playoffs every season.
Some people only see the positive tank stories like the Pens and Hawks. The Islanders tanked for many years. Do I need to say anything else? The #1 overall is a lottery, and there aren't generational talents in every draft.

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