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Quebec City to announce arena plans

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Old
02-10-2011, 01:54 PM
  #26
JIMVINNY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedved View Post
wow. no federal funding, and now it's on the provincial liberals. Lots of misleading and lying going on around this topic, the outrage yesterday about federal funding is quickly gone. Yet, no change to plans? Does the province of Quebec understand there's an economic crisis out there?

sucks for the people of Quebec, as they shouldn't pay for it. 400 million in taxpayer money, good luck with that people of Quebec. you're screwed.

Jim Vinny. "I don't really understand why a gov't wouldn't put money towards this. The income tax generated by an NHL organization would more than cover the money contributed in less than a decade. Pretty good investment, if you ask me. Obviously, this doesn't apply to pre-existing teams, but in a case like Quebec, where new jobs will be created, I don't see why the Federal gov't can't contribute 200 million, as the 60+ million in players salaries alone will net them around 20 mil a year, and that's just the players. Coaching team, management team, support staff, arena staff, construction workers... Will all be paying income tax to the Canadian and Quebec governments."


you understand you don't see a penny? nothing comes back to the people. you don't own the team, your just building a Arena. you just foot the bill so you can pay to watch things in your new arena.
Clearly, you misunderstood. Obviously, since I'm in Alberta, I wouldn't see a penny of those extra tax dollars. But the Canadian and Quebec governments would. So by virtue of the extra tax dollars coming in, because without an NHL team, they wouldn't be coming in, I don't see why they can't contribute something. Obviously, this all hinges on Quebec actually being able to get an NHL team, which is by no means a guarantee. I'm just saying that forking out 200 million so that you generate ~30 million for the next 30 years isn't a bad investment.

Just to make it absolutely CLEAR for you, what I'm saying is that the NHL team will basically be paying for the arena themselves, by paying income tax to the government for the next 30 years or so. Therefore, the average joe won't actually be paying at all, just fronting the loan. Which will be more than payed back. Capiche?

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02-10-2011, 02:23 PM
  #27
NORiculous
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Just read on cyberpresse that the cost is equivalent to 0,8% of the city budget and less then 10% of the cities "immobilisation" budget.


Link

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02-10-2011, 02:35 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by NORiculous View Post
Just read on cyberpresse that the cost is equivalent to 0,8% of the city budget and less then 10% of the cities "immobilisation" budget.


Link
That can't be! Quebec City is a village and will go bankrupt for sure! !!!1

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02-10-2011, 02:48 PM
  #29
Nedved
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Originally Posted by JIMVINNY View Post
Clearly, you misunderstood. Obviously, since I'm in Alberta, I wouldn't see a penny of those extra tax dollars. But the Canadian and Quebec governments would. So by virtue of the extra tax dollars coming in, because without an NHL team, they wouldn't be coming in, I don't see why they can't contribute something. Obviously, this all hinges on Quebec actually being able to get an NHL team, which is by no means a guarantee. I'm just saying that forking out 200 million so that you generate ~30 million for the next 30 years isn't a bad investment.

Just to make it absolutely CLEAR for you, what I'm saying is that the NHL team will basically be paying for the arena themselves, by paying income tax to the government for the next 30 years or so. Therefore, the average joe won't actually be paying at all, just fronting the loan. Which will be more than payed back. Capiche?
Your 30 million in taxes seems like a stretch, but I do see what your saying. However, those taxes would be generated if the private sector paid for the arena too, just like the rest of Canada's NHL teams. If the NHL was planning to move to Quebec, I'm sure a private investor(s) might take a chance. If the private sector isn't willing to take the gamble, there's a reason for it. It's not a good investment.


it's 400 million of tax payer money, the first article I read was misleading saying the private sector was half in on it. Let's not forget, it's in a city that loss a team because they couldn't afford to keep them. Also, there's no team in Quebec City, and no plan to do so anytime soon.

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02-10-2011, 02:51 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Madevilz View Post
That arena will bring extra revenues to the province.
I don't see why we would lose anything.
Hardly...Only Quebecor will make $$ out of this, they invest peanuts, use the arena, broadcast the games and PK Peladeau will laugh all the way to the bank every year.

As for Labeaume he gets re-elected and is remembered as the guy who ''brought the Nordiques back''. Ego trip.

The QC government will not make money with all this, if it were the case lots of private investors would be lining up to take part of the project!...no wonder the federal is not involved.

Sure as a hockey and Habs fan I'd be thrilled to see them back, thrilled! But public funds should only be a small % of the total investment, very small.

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Originally Posted by Nedved View Post
Let's not forget, it's in a city that loss a team because they couldn't afford to keep them. Also, there's no team in Quebec City, and no plan to do so anytime soon.
Good point... Look at Winnipeg, nice big new arena, no team.

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02-10-2011, 02:51 PM
  #31
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I'd rather have the Habs play in a different division than Nords. I know it's selfish, and I've never been a Nords fan, but I'd root for them if they were in a different division. However, 8 games a year against them, I'd probably hate their guts.

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02-10-2011, 02:56 PM
  #32
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Since I'm not a resident of Quebec and there's no Federal funding I can't really be against it.

That being said, Quebec better hope that they do actually get an NHL team soon after the arena is built. There's a lot of risk involved here. For example, the NHL/NHL owners can use Quebec much like Pittsburgh used Kansas City as leverage for new arena or new lease negotiations. Or they could end up in a situation where to actually lure a team to Quebec City very generous lease terms (and maybe tax breaks) will be extorted from the city/province.

Potential NHL owners will have all the leverage here; already owning a team in the cartel (few alternatives for the city to go to), other locations where they can move the team (Kansas City), and political pressure on the politicians to get an actual tenant for the arena rather than it sitting empty (like Kansas City's arena). Things could go very badly; hopefully they won't, but there's a lot of potential there.

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02-10-2011, 03:21 PM
  #33
Nedved
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Originally Posted by Roke View Post
Since I'm not a resident of Quebec and there's no Federal funding I can't really be against it.
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Originally Posted by Roke View Post

That being said, Quebec better hope that they do actually get an NHL team soon after the arena is built. There's a lot of risk involved here. For example, the NHL/NHL owners can use Quebec much like Pittsburgh used Kansas City as leverage for new arena or new lease negotiations. Or they could end up in a situation where to actually lure a team to Quebec City very generous lease terms (and maybe tax breaks) will be extorted from the city/province.

Potential NHL owners will have all the leverage here; already owning a team in the cartel (few alternatives for the city to go to), other locations where they can move the team (Kansas City), and political pressure on the politicians to get an actual tenant for the arena rather than it sitting empty (like Kansas City's arena). Things could go very badly; hopefully they won't, but there's a lot of potential there.

This I disagree with. Gets the ball rolling, making it a bad idea. Before long all Canadian teams will look to the public for funding just because they can.

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02-10-2011, 03:43 PM
  #34
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You guys all think that Bettman will have a team move there soon. Forget it. There are OTHER cities that have built arenas and are STILL waiting for teams. It's called leverage. And Bettman will use it to his advantage, the same way that the NHL uses LA as a leverage.

Québec City won't have a team unless Bettman says so. And don't forget that Péladeau is in a legal battle against the NHL because of the exclusivity clause regarding all Canadiens games. You don't fight Bettman if you want a franchise.

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02-10-2011, 06:13 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Nedved View Post
Your 30 million in taxes seems like a stretch, but I do see what your saying. However, those taxes would be generated if the private sector paid for the arena too, just like the rest of Canada's NHL teams. If the NHL was planning to move to Quebec, I'm sure a private investor(s) might take a chance. If the private sector isn't willing to take the gamble, there's a reason for it. It's not a good investment.


it's 400 million of tax payer money, the first article I read was misleading saying the private sector was half in on it. Let's not forget, it's in a city that loss a team because they couldn't afford to keep them. Also, there's no team in Quebec City, and no plan to do so anytime soon.
At Quebec's income tax percentage, 60 million in player salaries alone would account for 25 million easily.

Regarding your mention of investors, a private investor wouldn't benefit from income tax collected, so that doesn't really apply. A government stands to benefit more than any investor from the creation of high-salary jobs like an NHL team. In fact, even if a team is losing 10 million per year, the government is still collecting a massive amount of income tax from the players on that team.

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02-10-2011, 06:23 PM
  #36
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I get the vibe that perhaps the powers that be might know something that we don't right now. Has anyone taken into consideration that the channels have been opened between an owner somewhere and the league about interest in moving their franchise to Quebec? It seems suspicious that all of a sudden this project is a full-green light show, without federal funding (which was once considered absolutely required to make this happen).

We know how the NHL handles their business, they are very secretive about these kinds of things and might not want to let fans down in a current market by letting word slip they are losing their team in the upcoming year/2/3/whatever it may be.

Somethings just doesn't add up, that being said.. I support the notion of the Nords returning, it's unfortunate that it's going to come from Public funds I just hope that the city/province doesn't end up selling the assets for cents on the dollar at some point and lose money.

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02-10-2011, 06:37 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
You guys all think that Bettman will have a team move there soon. Forget it. There are OTHER cities that have built arenas and are STILL waiting for teams. It's called leverage. And Bettman will use it to his advantage, the same way that the NHL uses LA as a leverage.

Québec City won't have a team unless Bettman says so. And don't forget that Péladeau is in a legal battle against the NHL because of the exclusivity clause regarding all Canadiens games. You don't fight Bettman if you want a franchise.
Bettman dont run ****, its all about the governors and Peladeau is willing to pay the big price for a new franchise (that money is split among all the owners)

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02-10-2011, 06:51 PM
  #38
Kimota
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Hardly...Only Quebecor will make $$ out of this, they invest peanuts, use the arena, broadcast the games and PK Peladeau will laugh all the way to the bank every year.
No Labeaume decided to not involve any private entity because they wanted to control the revenues. Not Quebecor. He said "we're not gonna have a company come in and put SOME dollars where they would decide to run the building while people pay for the magority of it". Sure Quebecor will make money from a possible hockey team but they won't have carte blanche with the building.

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As for Labeaume he gets re-elected and is remembered as the guy who ''brought the Nordiques back''. Ego trip.
What ego trip? The guy wants a hockey club, he did a lot of things for the city already, he wants things to happen and make everything possible to accomplish what he sets out to do. The guy has already the support of the whole city, he is the most popular politician in the province, he doesn't need MORE support.

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The QC government will not make money with all this, if it were the case lots of private investors would be lining up to take part of the project!...no wonder the federal is not involved.
The city and province will roll in money if there's a hockey club, though. They are already talking to developers about condos and so forth around the building. This would be quite a spike to the economy of the city and the province.

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Sure as a hockey and Habs fan I'd be thrilled to see them back, thrilled! But public funds should only be a small % of the total investment, very small.
I disagree. Hockey is THE most important thing in our culture. It should be publicly fund. Esp. if it brings hockey in Canada, it would cultivate the interest for the sport.

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Good point... Look at Winnipeg, nice big new arena, no team.
Québec needed a brand new arena no matter what. Hockey or no hockey. It was disgraceful that it had a 61 years old building.

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02-10-2011, 07:03 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
That can't be! Quebec City is a village and will go bankrupt for sure! !!!1
Pretty much.



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02-10-2011, 07:11 PM
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For everyone living in Montreal, guess what, your provincial taxes are paying for Quebec City's arena. Every time, you get your pay cheque, and see provincial tax, your paying for the future enemies arena or their white elephant.

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02-10-2011, 07:17 PM
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The funniest aspect of this announcement is that everyone is buying the $400M price tag. We are talking about a construction project in the province of Quebec. Here is how you need to translate the projected cost and delivery date into real terms.

(Stated cost) x 2.5 and (Projected delivery) + 5.5 years

So we are looking at at $1G arena that will be delivered in 2020.

Epic fail project imo.

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02-11-2011, 01:01 PM
  #42
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What I don't understand is why Quebec needs the most expensive Arena in america? 400 Millions is 80 more than the state of the art Pittsburgh's arena...

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02-11-2011, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Ketzlaf View Post
The funniest aspect of this announcement is that everyone is buying the $400M price tag. We are talking about a construction project in the province of Quebec. Here is how you need to translate the projected cost and delivery date into real terms.

(Stated cost) x 2.5 and (Projected delivery) + 5.5 years

So we are looking at at $1G arena that will be delivered in 2020.

Epic fail project imo.


OR....

we get a half built arena , with no roof, and project gets shut down, by 2016 ... with total cost to taxpayers in the 600 M range

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02-11-2011, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
For everyone living in Montreal, guess what, your provincial taxes are paying for Quebec City's arena. Every time, you get your pay cheque, and see provincial tax, your paying for the future enemies arena or their white elephant.
Id rather pay for a white elephant than for a grey toilet bowl.
1.5 billion and counting

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02-11-2011, 01:15 PM
  #45
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Id rather pay for a white elephant than for a grey toilet bowl.
1.5 billion and counting
And now you will pay for both.

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02-11-2011, 01:17 PM
  #46
HH
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Originally Posted by Ketzlaf View Post
The funniest aspect of this announcement is that everyone is buying the $400M price tag. We are talking about a construction project in the province of Quebec. Here is how you need to translate the projected cost and delivery date into real terms.

(Stated cost) x 2.5 and (Projected delivery) + 5.5 years

So we are looking at at $1G arena that will be delivered in 2020.

Epic fail project imo.
If a French isn't the architect, we should be fine.

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Old
02-11-2011, 01:18 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Team_Spirit View Post
Id rather pay for a white elephant than for a grey toilet bowl.
1.5 billion and counting
Haven't we paid for the Olympic Stadium already?

Edit: Yup, the last payment was made in 2006.

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02-11-2011, 01:20 PM
  #48
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Haven't we paid for the Olympic Stadium already?

Edit: Yup, the last payment was made in 2006.
I believe so he might be talking about maintenance costs...but the actual "mortgage" if you will is done.

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02-11-2011, 01:40 PM
  #49
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What I don't understand is why Quebec needs the most expensive Arena in america? 400 Millions is 80 more than the state of the art Pittsburgh's arena...
Well you need to understand alot of things in the world of construction to be able to see all why.

First alot of things are more pricey here than in the USA, because of the general climate. You need to put way more attention to the materials with the all the frost/defrost cycles and calcium etc.

Also remember that a huge arena like that take alot and I mean alot of steel, remember Pittsburg nickname ? steel city... That why alot of their costs were so low (they have so many offer in the steel market that the prices go down). Also alot of the things need to be transported in Quebec since there is not always alot of industries at proximity.

Big powerful syndicates also bring the price of workers higher in Quebec than in the state which is also a factor you need to think off.

All in all Quebec stadium will be probably of the same quality than the Pittsburg on, but the price difference will be determined by thoses factors (and some others).

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02-11-2011, 01:55 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Forsead View Post
Well you need to understand alot of things in the world of construction to be able to see all why.

First alot of things are more pricey here than in the USA, because of the general climate. You need to put way more attention to the materials with the all the frost/defrost cycles and calcium etc.

Also remember that a huge arena like that take alot and I mean alot of steel, remember Pittsburg nickname ? steel city... That why alot of their costs were so low (they have so many offer in the steel market that the prices go down). Also alot of the things need to be transported in Quebec since there is not always alot of industries at proximity.

Big powerful syndicates also bring the price of workers higher in Quebec than in the state which is also a factor you need to think off.

All in all Quebec stadium will be probably of the same quality than the Pittsburg on, but the price difference will be determined by thoses factors (and some others).
You have it wrong.

400M$ = 300M$ for the material + 100M$ for the wages + 200M$ for commitees + 50M$ for commitees to review the commitees + 50M$ of gifts to the mafia/construction + 300M$ in unexpected cost (such as forgeting to include weather in the initial projection, etc).

That is how you get the ''400M$'' figure.

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