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Bryan Murray's Draft Record

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Old
02-11-2011, 03:40 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Yeah, because once he's gone he'll be remembered as the guy who ran the once great Ottawa Senators into the ground and the only thing he did right was draft Erik Karlsson
Most of the player that made us "great" left while Murray was coach. The moves a GM has done for an organization impact it long after his tenure is over. Wait and see...if we have to wait for draft picks and crafty moves from the next GM because Murray's picks don't pan out at all...well he failed.

He's only had Karlsson so far because his scout team has only been drafting since 2008. Patience....and then evaluate.

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02-11-2011, 03:47 PM
  #27
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02-11-2011, 04:29 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Bob Kudelski View Post
So Murray DID draft Brian Lee! Not Muckler.
They each drafted a Brian Lee, Muckler just decided to take his 9th overall.

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02-11-2011, 04:31 PM
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They each drafted a Brian Lee, Muckler just decided to take his 9th overall.
Murray drafted a Brian Lee. Muckler drunkenly thought he was getting Brian Leetch.

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02-11-2011, 04:50 PM
  #30
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Had no idea he drafted Kuba.

His 1991 draft was very strong as well.

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02-11-2011, 06:28 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
Burke deserves credit for going the long way around to sign Scott Niedermayer- by signing Rob Niedermayer. That's about all I'll give him credit for.

He got lucky with Pronger's "situation" and true to form, capitalized on it.
Murray traded for Rod Niedermayer in 03, not sure if Burke had to re-sign him in 05, but he certainly didn't go the long way around to sign Scott. I'd say much like the Pronger situation, he got lucky that Scott wanted to play with his brother and capitalized on it, so kudos for that.

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02-11-2011, 07:46 PM
  #32
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It is interesting to see that he traded for players that he previously drafted. That seems like a knock against him. You sign/trade based on what's best for the team, not the players that you're most familiar with.

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02-11-2011, 07:56 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
Murray traded for Rod Niedermayer in 03, not sure if Burke had to re-sign him in 05, but he certainly didn't go the long way around to sign Scott. I'd say much like the Pronger situation, he got lucky that Scott wanted to play with his brother and capitalized on it, so kudos for that.
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02-11-2011, 11:26 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
Murray traded for Rod Niedermayer in 03, not sure if Burke had to re-sign him in 05, but he certainly didn't go the long way around to sign Scott. I'd say much like the Pronger situation, he got lucky that Scott wanted to play with his brother and capitalized on it, so kudos for that.
Burke gave him $8M over 4 years...

http://www.zimbio.com/Rob+Niedermaye...talks+continue

Last paragraph. He was a good player, but come on.

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02-12-2011, 01:05 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenzZen View Post
Burke deserves credit for going the long way around to sign Scott Niedermayer- by signing Rob Niedermayer. That's about all I'll give him credit for.

He got lucky with Pronger's "situation" and true to form, capitalized on it.
Acutally, Murray acquired Rob

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Yeah, because once he's gone he'll be remembered as the guy who ran the once great Ottawa Senators into the ground and the only thing he did right was draft Erik Karlsson
Ya, Erik Karlsson is probably the only good thing that will happen under Murray (and it's 2.5 years ago). Butler, Winchester, DD, Rundblad, Wiercioch, Lehner, Cowen, ... is nothing

Although, with only Karlsson, Murray brought more in 3.5 years than Muckler did in 6 years. That's funny when you think of it

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02-12-2011, 03:22 PM
  #36
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Tuna99
Murray has made some mistakes sure but to say he ran the team in to the ground is 100% false.He has done a great job restocking the famr system and building up the player pool.

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02-12-2011, 03:41 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Acutally, Murray acquired Rob



Ya, Erik Karlsson is probably the only good thing that will happen under Murray (and it's 2.5 years ago). Butler, Winchester, DD, Rundblad, Wiercioch, Lehner, Cowen, ... is nothing

Although, with only Karlsson, Murray brought more in 3.5 years than Muckler did in 6 years. That's funny when you think of it
Yes, Murray acquired him, but Burke resigned him to a huge contract to keep him there, then signed Scott.

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02-12-2011, 03:44 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Xspyrit View Post
Acutally, Murray acquired Rob



Ya, Erik Karlsson is probably the only good thing that will happen under Murray (and it's 2.5 years ago). Butler, Winchester, DD, Rundblad, Wiercioch, Lehner, Cowen, ... is nothing

Although, with only Karlsson, Murray brought more in 3.5 years than Muckler did in 6 years. That's funny when you think of it
Not to split hairs, but a good portion of that list IS nothing. Winchester is a value-less piece. Players like him are a dime a dozen. Wiercioch has been miserable in the AHL. It will be a long road if Lehner is to separate himself from the pack of 30 or so mediocre goalies in the league that are a step behind the elite ones.

Murray has added some nice prospects, but I think people get carried away and list all his top picks like they will all pan out. Most won't, and people will be much less happy about his drafting in 3-4 years.

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02-12-2011, 03:50 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
Not to split hairs, but a good portion of that list IS nothing. Winchester is a value-less piece. Players like him are a dime a dozen. Wiercioch has been miserable in the AHL. It will be a long road if Lehner is to separate himself from the pack of 30 or so mediocre goalies in the league that are a step behind the elite ones.

Murray has added some nice prospects, but I think people get carried away and list all his top picks like they will all pan out. Most won't, and people will be much less happy about his drafting in 3-4 years.
Don't put alot into what players do in the ahl some don't player well in the ahl but play well in the nhl.On the flip side some player well in the ahl but don't turn out to be good nhl players.Te fact is ottawa's farm system was a mess and murray has turned that around its so much better then it was just 2 years ago is it perfect no but give murray some credit.

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02-12-2011, 03:59 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
Don't put alot into what players do in the ahl some don't player well in the ahl but play well in the nhl.On the flip side some player well in the ahl but don't turn out to be good nhl players.Te fact is ottawa's farm system was a mess and murray has turned that around its so much better then it was just 2 years ago is it perfect no but give murray some credit.
I just have very little respect for what he's done. We have been a joke on the ice for his entire tenure, and to show for it we have:

- Karlsson at the NHL level. He has quite literally added no other NHL players of real value.
- Lehner, Butler, Rundblad, Wiercioch, Cowen, Silvferberg. Of these, 1-2 will likely reach their full potential.

So congrats to Murray on adding a single very good player to the organization every year (maybe) but that is far short of what is expected from an NHL GM.

Also, before Muckler was fired, people were talking about how good Foligno, Daugavins, Lee, Meszaros, Zubov, Anikeyenko, Lyamin, Weller, Bass et al were going to be going forward. Hopefully that provides some perspective to people listing Murray's picks like they are money in the bank.

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02-12-2011, 04:31 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
I just have very little respect for what he's done. We have been a joke on the ice for his entire tenure, and to show for it we have:

- Karlsson at the NHL level. He has quite literally added no other NHL players of real value.
- Lehner, Butler, Rundblad, Wiercioch, Cowen, Silvferberg. Of these, 1-2 will likely reach their full potential.

So congrats to Murray on adding a single very good player to the organization every year (maybe) but that is far short of what is expected from an NHL GM.

Also, before Muckler was fired, people were talking about how good Foligno, Daugavins, Lee, Meszaros, Zubov, Anikeyenko, Lyamin, Weller, Bass et al were going to be going forward. Hopefully that provides some perspective to people listing Murray's picks like they are money in the bank.
Sure maybe 1-2 may be the only ones that become full time nhl players however more then 2 may be full time players.What you have to keep in midn si people out side of ottawa even say ottawa has some good young players.With mucks that was all we had and not many out side of ottawa said any but maybe folingo would be nhl players.Another thing in 2007 we were ranked around 29th in terms of our farm system ranking now were in the middle of the pack so murray must be doing something right.

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02-12-2011, 04:37 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by wjhl2009fan View Post
Sure maybe 1-2 may be the only ones that become full time nhl players however more then 2 may be full time players.What you have to keep in midn si people out side of ottawa even say ottawa has some good young players.With mucks that was allw e had and not many out side of ottawa said any but maybe folingo would be nhl players.
I'm actually quite pleased with the system right now, or would be if we had been successful over the past 4 years. I just don't think its anything to brag about considering the fact that the NHL squad has won exactly two playoff games in four years under Murray, and missed the postseason twice. Many teams with better prospects than us have been successful on the ice over the past four years.

I guess what I'm saying is that the system is not in nearly good enough shape to justify the gong show that has been his NHL teams during his tenure.

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02-12-2011, 06:11 PM
  #43
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When is Murray going to draft the sens a Ryan Getzlaf, Corey Perry or a Keith Primeau?

He still hasn't really brought in any mean top six forward with size. I wonder if he is emphasizing more North American players with our Swedish scout gone. The sens really have emphasized drafting euro players the last few drafts, maybe this will change for the 2011 and 2012 drafts.

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02-13-2011, 10:30 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
Not to split hairs, but a good portion of that list IS nothing. Winchester is a value-less piece. Players like him are a dime a dozen. Wiercioch has been miserable in the AHL. It will be a long road if Lehner is to separate himself from the pack of 30 or so mediocre goalies in the league that are a step behind the elite ones.

Murray has added some nice prospects, but I think people get carried away and list all his top picks like they will all pan out. Most won't, and people will be much less happy about his drafting in 3-4 years.
I think some posters around here have a bit of a misconception problem. You really over-estimate the impact that a new GM has on his team and how long it takes before reality sets in. It takes many years before you can see it and it's not as linear as you think.

Basically, whatever the name of the GM would have been, you'd have seen an inevitable decline with Ottawa. It just would have been slower or faster after the Stanley Cup run depending of the GM.

You just can't do anything when you lose key players (due to the cap or other personal problems) like Chara, Redden, Emery, Corvo, Heatley, Havlat, Volchenkov for (almost) nothing and when you have absolutely no quality prospects to replace these guys in some proportion, and in a very long 5 years span!

Only thing you can do is try to patch things up (Kovalev, Kuba, Gonchar, Ruutu, Leclaire, Carkner) and lean on your long time serving members (Fisher, Alfie, Phillips, Kelly, Neil) to do more and more each and every year... But at some point, it comes back to bite you in the ass and those players are unhealthy and tired.

My intent is not to go into another long debate (time is always precious) but what I'm saying is that people expect way too much for GMs, like if it was some sort of Walt Disney miracle movie.

Outside of the Red Wings who have hit so many homeruns at the draft and have a very good developping system, no teams in the NHL has had long time success in today's NHL (outside of Ottawa and NJ maybe)

A GM's role is to put a good scouting department in place and draft/develop players the best they can. After that, when those draft picks become good NHL players, he needs to identify a core and keep the good ones around for several other years (which Murray did after the SC run. Of course you had to show the money to those guys or they would have gone elsewhere). In hindsight, Murray should have traded Heatley at his top-value back then, but who knew what was going to happen? And how would the fans reacted if they traded a back-to-back 50 goals scorer...

So, every year, you need some young prospects to come in a replace aging veterans or guys that would just cost too much to keep around. If you have a hole in your team, you can then sign a UFA or 2, but your key players shouldn't come from the UFA market...

You need those young guns to take place in the line-up and some to develop into future core members and/or key players

That's how you build a NHL team in today's game. And of course, there is the coaching staff and etc. where Murray failed IMO.

Basically, it takes years before you can see a GM's impact, you'll see it when the young guys he brought in are core/key/impact players on the team.

And it's always a matter of timing. The Gonchar signing would have looked a lot better if we still had Heatley, or if we had a NHL coach and a healthy NHL goalie. It would have been great to replace Redden by Gonchar 2 years ago, but Gonchar wasn't available and we didn't have cap space because of that 20M$ pizza line

The timing Murray came in was when the team was scheduled to decline (as Alfie goes, the Sens go). It was only a matter of time. I'm actually glad our GM was Murray and his connections because we could be looking at a full rebuild without all the assets we already have : Spezza, Michalek, Regin, Foligno, Butler, Silfverberg, Karlsson, Rundblad, Cowen, Wiercioch, Lehner, ... Two 1st round picks in 2011

Thankfully to Murray and his staff, we are ahead on the rebuild IMO and we shouldn't rot in hell like the Leafs, Panthers, Islanders, Jackets and maybe even the Oilers

Just for fun :

Spezza vs Gagner
Landeskog (?) vs Hall
Butler vs Eberle
Michalek vs Hemsky
Foligno vs MPS
Regin vs Cogliano
Silvferberg vs Omark

Karlsson vs 2011 first
Cowen vs Smid
Rundblad vs Whitney
Wiercioch vs Marincin
Lee vs Petry
Gryba vs Plante

It's just a matter of who will be better than who


Last edited by Xspyrit: 02-13-2011 at 02:53 PM.
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02-13-2011, 11:35 AM
  #45
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I think some posters around here have a bit of a misconception problem. You really over-estimate the impact that a new GM has on his team and how long it takes in reality to set in. It takes year before you can see it and it's not as linear as you think.

Basically, whatever the name of the GM would have been, you'd have seen an inevitable decline with Ottawa. It just would have been slower or faster after the Stanley Cup run depending of the GM.

You just can't do anything when you lose key players (due to the cap or other personal problems) like Chara, Redden, Emery, Corvo, Heatley, Havlat, Volchenkov for (almost nothing) and when you have absolutely no quality prospects to replace these guys in some proportion, and in a very long 5 years span!

Only thing you can do is try to patch things up (Kovalev, Kuba, Gonchar, Ruutu, Leclaire, Carkner) and lean on your long time serving members (Fisher, Alfie, Phillips, Kelly, Neil) to do more and more each and every year... But at some point, it comes back to bite you in the ass and those players are unhealthy and tired.

My intent is not to go into another long debate (time is always precious) but what I'm saying is that people expect way too much for GMs, like if it was some sort of Walt Disney miracle movie.

Outside of the Red Wings who have hit so many homeruns at the draft and have a very good developping system, no teams in the NHL has had long time success in today's NHL (outside of Ottawa and NJ maybe)

A GM's role is to put a good scouting department in place and draft/develop players the best they can. After that, when those draft picks become good NHL players, he needs to identify a core and keep the good ones around for several other years (which Murray did after the SC run. Of course you had to show the money to those guys or they would have gone elsewhere). In hindsight, Murray should have traded Heatley at his top-value back then, but who knew what was going to happen? And how would the fans reacted if they traded a back-to-back 50 goals scorer...

So, every year, you need some young prospects to come in a replace aging veterans or guys that would just cost too much to keep around. If you have a hole in your team, you can then sign a UFA or 2, but your key players shouldn't come from the UFA market...

You need those young guns to take place in the line-up and some to develop into future core members and/or key players

That's how you build a NHL team in today's game. And of course, there is the coaching staff and etc. where Murray failed IMO.

Basically, it takes years before you can see a GM's impact, you'll see it when the young guys he brought in are core/key/impact players on the team.

And it's always a matter of timing. The Gonchar signing would have looked a lot better if we still had Heatley, or if we had a NHL coach and a healthy NHL goalie. It would have been great to replace Redden by Gonchar 2 years ago, but Gonchar wasn't available and we didn't have cap space because of that 20M$ pizza line

The timing Murray came in was when the team was scheduled to decline (as Alfie goes, the Sens go). It was only a matter of time. I'm actually glad our GM was Murray and his connections because we could be looking at a full rebuild without all the assets we already have : Spezza, Michalek, Regin, Foligno, Butler, Silfverberg, Karlsson, Rundblad, Cowen, Wiercioch, Lehner, ... Two 1st round picks in 2011

Thankfully to Murray and his staff, we are ahead on the rebuild IMO and we shouldn't rot in hell like the Leafs, Panthers, Islanders, Jackets and maybe even the Oilers

Just for fun :

Spezza vs Gagner
Landeskog (?) vs Hall
Butler vs Eberle
Michalek vs Hemsky
Foligno vs MPS
Regin vs Cogliano
Silvferberg vs Omark

Karlsson vs 2011 first
Cowen vs Smid
Rundblad vs Whitney
Wiercioch vs Marincin
Lee vs Petry
Gryba vs Plante

It's just a matter of who will be better than who
I'm well aware that Murray inherited a tough situation, but his decisions at the NHL level have been nothing short of abysmal. Given the state of our farm, we were going not going to remain a perpetual Cup contender, but there is no reason why we had to miss the playoffs twice in four years, win only two playoff games over that span, and become the 2nd worst team in the league. That's on him.

As for the players you list, most of the league has a young nucleus as good or better than ours. I would take the Panthers', Islanders' and Oilers' youth over ours without thinking twice. We've been bad for 4 years, and have a middling group of prospects to show for it. I can't justify saying he's done a good job, because the results say otherwise. He's a mediocre GM, and his tenure here will be looked back on as somewhere between mediocre and bad, depending on how many of his prospects actually become players.

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02-13-2011, 01:01 PM
  #46
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Don't see why people are knocking Murray so hard, his entire core pretty much got up and left for nothing. We have a GM who had a tiny core and decided to trade lottery picks to add a single player to that group. Murray is doing things the right way and I think its a little pessimistic to say out of Karlsson, Rundblad, Cowen, Weircoch, Lee, Regin, Foligno, Butler only Karlsson will play to his potential.

Murray tried to patch up the Sens instead of just going into rebuild after his core got up and left, it's a lot like how the Leafs fared after the lockout. Traded our two 1sts in 2003 and 2004 for basically nothing and couldn't even make the playoffs but continued to sign giant contracts and aging vets (Sound familiar?) but after 4 years of being in a top 10 draft position we only have 2 prospects to show for it who have a chance of making the NHL. One already has with Schenn and Kadri shows promise but still, be a little appreciative about Murray and his ability to refill the prospect pool with some good prospects and rebuilding the right way.

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02-13-2011, 02:49 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by inthewings View Post
I'm well aware that Murray inherited a tough situation, but his decisions at the NHL level have been nothing short of abysmal. Given the state of our farm, we were going not going to remain a perpetual Cup contender, but there is no reason why we had to miss the playoffs twice in four years, win only two playoff games over that span, and become the 2nd worst team in the league. That's on him.

As for the players you list, most of the league has a young nucleus as good or better than ours. I would take the Panthers', Islanders' and Oilers' youth over ours without thinking twice. We've been bad for 4 years, and have a middling group of prospects to show for it. I can't justify saying he's done a good job, because the results say otherwise. He's a mediocre GM, and his tenure here will be looked back on as somewhere between mediocre and bad, depending on how many of his prospects actually become players.
You see? That’s the problem right here.

Abysmal? What are you talking about? Some of you are just exaggerating way too much

His coaching hirings sucked (although Clouston showed some promise in the first 1.5 years) but what else has been that “abysmal”?

- The Heatley deal? How much blame can we fairly put on Murray there? And, while Heatley produces more than Michalek, he costs 3.2M$ more per season and is a pain in the ace for the fans and maybe some of his teammates/coachs. Michalek seems like a great guy who isn’t making any noise off the ice. You gotta love his speed and 2-way game as well, as opposed to Heatley being useless when he doesn’t score. The 2nd round pick was used to get a rental (Cullen or Sutton, don’t remember) but a rental is what it is, a chance to improve your team and go farther in the playoffs. There are at least 8-10 teams every year who give up assets at the deadline for “rentals”. ALL THE NHL teams have done it multiple times in the past, well those who make the playoffs. Murray is not a bad GM for doing it as well...

- The Leclaire deal? Maybe we could have kept Vermette instead of Fisher but damn, have you watched Vermette in the Playoffs? And outside of last season playing alongside NHL star Rick Nash, Vermette hasn’t been a more productive center than Fisher, ever.

And what were we suppose to do with goaltending? Have Elliott and Auld as our goalie tandem? No, Murray used Vermette as an asset before losing him to UFA and sacrificed him in an attempt to cure the biggest weakness of this team. Leclaire has the talent but not the endurance to do it. It was a good try nonetheless, as most experts liked that trade. Murray also got a 2nd round pick out of that deal (Lehner), so there’s a good chance we could still salvage this deal

- Kelly’s cap hit? With time, Kelly has even proven to be underpaid. His PK ability, work ethic, leadership skills, and production at ES proves it.

- Neil cap hit? With time, Neil has proven to be worth his value. NHL is a market, it’s not a fantasy world where virtual armchair GMs decide what the players are worth. Neil (product) is easily worth his salary because other teams (buyers) would have offered more. And I’m not talking about 1 or 2 teams there. Many teams would take Neil in their line-up, particulary playoffs teams.

- Carkner’s cap hit? Yes, some people found a way to whine at Murray for signing Carkner for a freaking 0.7 cap hit! Lol, Carkner is a top-3 fighter in the NHL and can hold a regular spot on a 3rd pairing.

- Fisher’s cap hit? Maybe Fisher was slightly overpaid but again if people think a consistent 20 goals/45 points scorer in the NHL who is among leaders in hits every year isn’t worth 4.0, they are the one mistaken. It’s easy to say “this guy is overpaid”, but you have to be able to understand what a market is.

David Poile, one of Fuhr (who has about the same opinion as you do on the subject) favorite GMs, just gave up a 1st round pick and a 3rd round pick for Mike Fisher and his overpaid grinder contract (for 2 more years)... Does it make Poile a bad GM now too?


- Kuba? Of course, if you want, Kuba makes Murray look bad this year, but no one can control players’ injuries and declines. Kuba is still young enough that he shouldn’t be in that phase already. Bad signing in hindsight but the Meszaros deal was a steal in the first place.

- Corvo deal? Murray should have traded him for prospect and a pick but seriously, who would have liked this at that time? The team was a few months removed from a SCF and was 1 secondary scorer (someone like Stillman), 1 physical D-man (someone like Commodore) and 1 coach away (Murray replaced Paddock) from being back in it. They were also missing a goalie (Gerber was Gerber and Emery was nowhere to be seen. Nothing could have turned that season around but Murray had to try.

- Kovalev? Yes, the guy is not your typical Canadian player but it only cost some Melnyk money to acquire this guy. We are about to get a pick back for him 1.5 years later. Not that dramatic when you consider that Kovalev really helped this team to make the p/o last year and helped Fisher to have a career year (hence maybe why we are able to get a 1st back for Fisher)

- Gonchar? One of the biggest signings last summer but came at the wrong time since the team is not contending. Gonchar doesn’t make this team bad, this team makes Gonchar bad. In the end, didn’t lose any asset to acquire him and we can always trade him or just use him as a stop gap and mentor for the young players.

What if we didn’t sign Kovalev and Gonchar? Cap space is fun but only for Melnyk. In hindsight, Murray should have probably signed other UFAs but what difference would it make in the end? Not much. Problems are still coach, goaltending, injuries/health, players declining, no quality prospects to relieve the pressure from them. Just ask Aflie

Outside of the Heatley deal, none of these signings/moves really hurt the franchise. It’s only some short term patching work. Injuries and declines, along with no proper coaching/goaltending and particulary no quality prospects is why we are here today

It’s repeat and repeat anyway, you guys don’t learn to dedramatize and put things in perspective. Murray has made mistakes (everyone in the world make some) but he is far from being the only one to blame. Muckler, Melnyk, coaching staff and players are to blame as well.

Yes, the results sucked but only good drafting could have prevented this from happening and we didn’t have that for 6 full years. Of course, the Sens suck now that Alfie isn’t carrying this team anymore

PS : We've been bad for 4 years? If you expect ECF every year from your NHL team, prepare to be disappointed 95% of the time. We had decent records in 2 of the last 4 season and made the playoffs twice. No success in the playoffs is another story but outside of this year and the stretch under Hartsburg, the team has been average or above average. We haven’t been “bad” for 4 years. Another mass exaggeration from you.

PS 2 : I didn't say our young nucleus is better than other teams. I just listed it in a comparison mode vs the Oilers. No one can really say which nucleus is better, it is way too subjective. You saying that you would take Panthers, Islanders and Oilers nucleus shows that maybe you don't know as much as you seem to think


Last edited by Xspyrit: 02-13-2011 at 02:57 PM.
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01-23-2013, 08:09 AM
  #48
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Another thread fun to bump

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01-23-2013, 08:35 AM
  #49
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Question for the draft experts here... May not come out the way I mean..

Are Murrays selections consistantly good, or does the development system bring the most out of most players selected?

Is it more the scouting of Tim Murray/Dorion?

Or more the development of Randy Lee, etc?

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01-23-2013, 08:45 AM
  #50
Curtinho
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Does this mean there's a chance we get Perry and/or Getzlaf this summer?

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