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Vanek on Roy's absence: "...I've gotten the puck more"

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Old
02-12-2011, 08:56 AM
  #51
joechip
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Pominville rarely plays with Roy at ES and he's near point/game since Roy went out. Pommer has also put up similar stretches in past seasons--usually at the end of the season. I don't see how Roy's absence has any effect on him at ES.

And it's not like Stafford was sucking when Roy was healthy and in the lineup. He had 9 goals in 19 games with Roy, which is a 39-goal pace over 82 games. Pretty good. Stafford was their best forward after Roy early in the season. I was shouting it from the rooftops, but I was probably drowned out by the calls to trade Stafford for a 2nd rounder "while his value is high."

So, we get back to the real point: all of this is little more than Vanek fans trying to pin the team's and Vanek's struggles on Derek Roy. And that's because nothing is ever Thomas Vanek's fault to these people. Ever. Frankly, I'm surprised they haven't blamed Ruff or Roy for Vanek's past conditioning problems--then again, to them, he probably never had any conditioning issues.

They give themselves away when they say this stretch "proves" Roy is the problem and should be moved. Nevermind confusing correlation and causation, don't people wonder to themselves, "wait, why don't we just keep both, keep them separated at ES and on the PP, and build two lines around Vanek-Pommer and Roy-Stafford." It's because they don't want Roy here. Roy is the oppressor, Vanek the oppressed.

But Zip, wasn't Roy the center for Vanek when he scored 43 goals and 87 pts? Or when he had 119 goals in a span of three seasons? SHHHHH!!! Move along, nothing to see there; instead, let's focus on these 18 games.
Vanek's streakiness in the last two seasons have to do with two things:

1) Josh's point that Vanek is a monster on the PP. When the PP sucks, Vanek's production goes down.
2) Vanek's played through nagging injuries. IMO he's been a leader on this team for the past 3 years.

He plays a different game with Roy. Fine. That doesn't mean that playing with Roy is per se a bad thing. It's different. He is productive with Roy. He's also productive with other people as well. It may be more fruitful to argue that Vanek's game is fluid and that at different times he would be more effective with different people depending on circumstance. It's Ruff's job to see this and move him to get the best from him, which I think he does.

Ta,

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Old
02-13-2011, 05:32 AM
  #52
SECRET SQUIRREL
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The team is better without Roy. It doesnt matter if he has a great contract or can score a bunch of points. I have said it before and I will say it again. Having a selfish, heartless, self centered, immature "leader" on your team can have a devastating effect throughout your locker room. I really hope Pegulla has taken notice of this as well...

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02-13-2011, 07:12 AM
  #53
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while I agree to squirrel i just think ruff misshandles vanek badly.
I think ruff has chosen the wrong leader (roy) and he should play vanek on the pk.
Vanek said that he wants to play at any situation but he's never gotten the chance to do so.

I really think when Ruff retires vanek will have a breakout season.....

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02-13-2011, 07:30 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
while I agree to squirrel i just think ruff misshandles vanek badly.
I think ruff has chosen the wrong leader (roy) and he should play vanek on the pk.
Vanek said that he wants to play at any situation but he's never gotten the chance to do so.

I really think when Ruff retires vanek will have a breakout season.....
Actually if you follw the sabres you would know that Vanek was playing short handed two years ago for about the first 20 games and Ruff took him off becuase it was too much of a work load.

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Old
02-13-2011, 07:35 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by sabresfan123 View Post
Actually if you follw the sabres you would know that Vanek was playing short handed two years ago for about the first 20 games and Ruff took him off becuase it was too much of a work load.
I do follow the sabres and vanek has played on the pk that 20 games becuase connolly was injured.
Vanek played on the pk with paille. when connolly returned vanek was taken off the pk

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02-13-2011, 07:53 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SECRET SQUIRREL View Post
The team is better without Roy. It doesnt matter if he has a great contract or can score a bunch of points. I have said it before and I will say it again. Having a selfish, heartless, self centered, immature "leader" on your team can have a devastating effect throughout your locker room. I really hope Pegulla has taken notice of this as well...
i really hope pegula has taken notice as well that this team is better without kaleta.

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02-13-2011, 11:55 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luceni View Post
while I agree to squirrel i just think ruff misshandles vanek badly.
I think ruff has chosen the wrong leader (roy) and he should play vanek on the pk.
Vanek said that he wants to play at any situation but he's never gotten the chance to do so.


The funny thing is Vanek is tearing it up right now and he isn't Pking nor is he getting more ice time.


Yet you're still arguing that he needs to play more and PK to be effective.


We have better PKers than Vanek on the team. Why in the world should they be sat in favor of Vanek?

Quote:
I really think when Ruff retires vanek will have a breakout season.....

When Ruff is gone Vanek will have a breakout season? What was 06-07 then? When Ruff was his coach and Roy was his center.

82gms --> 43g 41a 84pt
At ES --> 28g 34a 62pts (he hasn't come close to that rate at ES until this recent stretch).


So what will be his "actual" breakout year look like? 50g 100pts?

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02-13-2011, 12:01 PM
  #58
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Wasn't he on the third line in 06-07 and therefore faced very few of the other team's defensive lines?

Besides, Ruff's system was much different then.

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02-13-2011, 12:31 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kassian View Post
Wasn't he on the third line in 06-07 and therefore faced very few of the other team's defensive lines?

Besides, Ruff's system was much different then.
Was Ruff his coach and was Roy his center? Why is context needed when the folks arguing Vanek is better off without Roy don't bother with it.

The posters right now arguing Vanek is better off without Roy want things simplistic for their arguement. Vanek is playing better and Roy is out of the lineup. So Vanek is better off without Roy. No context needed. Nevermind that Vanek's production took off when Pommer was put with him (he had no points in the first 2 games that Roy was out). Or that we actually have two effective scoring lines right now thus taking the heat off the top line. Thats too much context and ruins the battle cry of Roy must go.

Also what difference does it make what line he was on in 06-07 in the context of it being his breakout year?

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02-13-2011, 12:50 PM
  #60
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It is true that Roy and Vanek had good chemistry in 06-07 (they must have, since they both had great seasons). But since then they haven't played that well together. You can disagree, but I would say that 06-07 was the anomaly.

And you can't really use 06-07 as a standard for Vanek because never again will Vanek play on the third line for us. He has been a somewhat consistent 60 point player since 06-07, so we should use that as the mark that he has to pass to have a "breakout" season IMO.

Also, I don't think a player's first great season or even his best statistical season is necessarily a "breakout" season, and a player's true breakout season might change in the course of his career. For example, Andrew Raycroft was excellent in 2003-04 and that was legitimately regarded as his breakout season back then. But he basically has fallen off the map since then and is now regarded as a backup. If he were ever to have a season so great that his team makes him the starter and he remains a great starter for several seasons after that, then that would be his true breakout. That's my take on it anyway.


Last edited by Pengo: 02-13-2011 at 12:58 PM.
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02-13-2011, 01:08 PM
  #61
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Vanek is essentially getting Roy's numbers while Roy is out of the lineup. Roy had 55 pts in 50 regular season games overlapping last season and this season--the final 29 games last year, and the first 21 games this season. Of course the Vanek fanboys want Thomas to be getting those numbers and not Derek, because it advances their anti-Roy, pro-Vanek agenda. That much should be obvious.

The funny part is how they try to spin the W/L record to be caused by Vanek's bigger role, and Roy's absence. Nevermind the fact that 10 of 18 games have been against teams currently sitting outside the playoffs--with any significant sample size, you'd expect roughly 1/3 of the games to be against non-playoff teams (actually less considering we are one of the non-playoff teams)--or the improved play of players who were already playing well with Roy (Stafford) or whose games have little to no dependence on Roy (Pominville, Weber, Morrisonn, et al.). Nope, it's Derek Roy's fault.

Isn't it fun to live in a simplistic world?

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Old
02-13-2011, 01:13 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kassian View Post
It is true that Roy and Vanek had good chemistry in 06-07 (they must have, since they both had great seasons). But since then they haven't played that well together. You can disagree, but I would say that 06-07 was the anomaly.

And you can't really use 06-07 as a standard for Vanek because never again will Vanek play on the third line for us. He has been a somewhat consistent 60 point player since 06-07, so we should use that as the mark that he has to pass to have a "breakout" season IMO.
Some historical context to my intitial post.

The poster in question (and others) have debated with me for many years about Vanek. Many of them feel his 43g 84pt season was just the beginning for Vanek. They have argued in previous years that he should have progressed in the last several years into something more. Some even arguing he should be a 50g 100pt player by now. But they feel he is being held back from becoming that player by Ruff and Roy

I have argued what you just pointed out. That a big reason he had 43g 84pts in 06-07 was due to him playing on the 2nd scoring line and 3rd line behind the Briere/Drury lines. I've argued that his struggles since the captains left have more to do with him adjusting to his increased role (top line player with a huge contract) than who his center and coach are.

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02-13-2011, 01:33 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kassian View Post
It is true that Roy and Vanek had good chemistry in 06-07 (they must have, since they both had great seasons). But since then they haven't played that well together. You can disagree, but I would say that 06-07 was the anomaly.

And you can't really use 06-07 as a standard for Vanek because never again will Vanek play on the third line for us. He has been a somewhat consistent 60 point player since 06-07, so we should use that as the mark that he has to pass to have a "breakout" season IMO.

Also, I don't think a player's first great season or even his best statistical season is necessarily a "breakout" season, and a player's true breakout season might change in the course of his career. For example, Andrew Raycroft was excellent in 2003-04 and that was legitimately regarded as his breakout season back then. But he basically has fallen off the map since then and is now regarded as a backup. If he were ever to have a season so great that his team makes him the starter and he remains a great starter for several seasons after that, then that would be his true breakout. That's my take on it anyway.
Since this edit was added after my initial response.


To me a breakout season is the first season a player plays or produces close to their potential ( or shows it) and establishes themselves in the NHL. It doesn't mean thats the most they can do as a player or they will always produce at that level. Some players take it to another level, some produce similar numbers from that year going forward and still others drop off from that year. But the breakout season is when the established themselves as an NHLer.

As an example, Pommer's breakout year was 06-07 as our 1st line RW when he had 34g 34a 68pts. He had a better statistical year the next season 27g 53a 80pts. But 06-07 is still the year he brokeout and established himself. Just as Vanek did that year.


Last edited by joshjull: 02-13-2011 at 01:44 PM.
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