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ATD 2011 Draft Thread IV

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Old
02-13-2011, 02:58 PM
  #51
monster_bertuzzi
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Take 3 minutes and send a list if you have to, this is ridiculous.

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02-13-2011, 03:01 PM
  #52
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At this pace we could call this thing ATD 2013

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02-13-2011, 03:02 PM
  #53
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Guys my next pick is going to define the direction of my team so just calm down.

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02-13-2011, 03:04 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
Guys my next pick is going to define the direction of my team so just calm down.
na, i think you should send a list

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Old
02-13-2011, 03:04 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Take 3 minutes and send a list if you have to, this is ridiculous.
Weekends should be All Time Draft crunch time! I didn't go out either night this weekend, but when I do and I'm almost up, I'm never hesitant to leave a list.

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Old
02-13-2011, 03:07 PM
  #56
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I'm not blaming anyone , but surely there's a way to make this thing work faster in the future.
We walked on the moon afterall.

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02-13-2011, 03:09 PM
  #57
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from a 2-23-1942 column by dink carroll:

Quote:
Shore The Inventor Of Pressure Hockey?

Earl Seibert sums up the players' reaction to pressure hockey with the same neat efficiency that he displays on the ice. He says, "The forwards love it--the defencemen hate it."

The defencemen hate it, the big Chicago rearguard star explains, because they have to do the back-checking for the forwards, and the forwards love it because they no longer have that long haul back the length of the ice when their checks break away. Credit, or blame, depending on your point of view, for the new game, he pins squarely on the shoulders of the great Eddie Shore, though he thinks wily X may have had a hand in it.

"Shore used to leave his position on the defence and come up near the opposing team's blueline," big Earl recalls. "He'd only stay there for a minute or two at a time, putting on a little power play of his own."

(redacted for undrafted players)

That is probably the truth about the origin of pressure hockey, as great individual stars have a habit of leaving their imprints on a game. Frank Nighbor, a forward with a particular genius for defensive hockey, was the cause of the kitty-bar-the-door style that prevailed for so many years. Shore, a defenceman with a brilliant offensive spark, may just as readily been the cause of the switchover to the new type of game.

Suggests Anti-offence Rule

Seibert doesn't think pressure hockey is here to stay. In his opinion, the fans don't like the new game and that is what will defeat it in the long run. He even has his own idea of what will develop.

"When all the clubs were playing defensive hockey," he pointed out, "the fans squawked all over the circuit. So they introduced the anti-defence rules. They're not always enforced, but they're there. According to the rules, only three men are allowed behind the defending blue line before the puck is carried into that defensive zone. It seems to me the next step will be anti-offence rules. They won't allow more than a certain number of players on the attacking team to go over the defending team's blue line."

Personally, he doesn't find it tougher to play the new game. He is always careful when playing "points" (that is the term defencemen use to describe their position when playing up on a power play) to keep moving. He skates at an angle and figures that helps him to turn with a forward and prevent him getting loose on a breakaway. In the old game, a defence player had to start from a standing position and he found the starting and stopping a bit wearying. Moving around as he does in the new game, his muscles are always loosened up ad he doesn't tire so quickly.
more of the same column on different subjects:
Quote:
One of the things that most impresses him (Earl Seibert) is the visible improvement in the goalies since he broke into the league. He thought Chuck Gardiner was in a class by himself once, but he doesn't think Chuck would be a standout if he were in the league today. He thinks the goalies are all smart now and have learned to play the angles.

Big Earl lives in Kitchener in the off-season and he used to see quite a bit of the Krauts in the summers. He admired them greatly and thought it remarkable that there had never been the slightest amount of jealousy among them. It was this complete harmony that made them such a great line.

"Schmidt was the best hockey player of the three," he said, "and the second best player in the league. But I'd have to rate Apps ahead of him. Apps is still a wonder. When he's on the ice, we have to change our whole team around to stop him. Without him, the Leafs wouldn't be so hard to take."

.....

Bryan Hextall he rates as a second Nels Stewart. Hextall doesn't have to get set to get rid of the puck and somehow, though he hasn't Big Sam's (Stewart was also nicknamed Big Sam) strength, he manages to work into a scoring position.
part about stewart needing to be set before shooting seems to contradict something i read.

i am mostly sure nighbor did not invent that kind of passive defensive hockey. but the ottawa dynasty, and nighbor in particular, almost certainly popularized it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
nik jr-was this the article you were referring to?

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...l+gadsby&hl=en
yes


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Old
02-13-2011, 03:11 PM
  #58
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This is not the first episode of gayness in the ATD, nor will it be the last.

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Old
02-13-2011, 03:22 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
This is not the first episode of gayness in the ATD, nor will it be the last.
I thought about a way to make this thing faster but of course it's still just a idea , having pre-determined date for each set of 20 picks , and if you can't be there you have to leave a list of 20 players , of course there's some flaws in this operation because you always like to know what players got picked to evaluate what's left of the position for later picks but it's just food for thoughts.

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02-13-2011, 03:25 PM
  #60
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I believe this is the highest he's ever gone, but I think he could stand to go even higher. I will select defenseman Lester Patrick. With all the other defensemen available, you pretty much know what you're getting, but the upside for Patrick is huge because most of the sources that talk about him are largely unexplored. I hope to find some great stuff on his play away from the puck. Even if I can't, he adds an amazing offensive dimension to my 2nd pairing.

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02-13-2011, 03:26 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
I thought about a way to make this thing faster but of course it's still just a idea , having pre-determined date for each set of 20 picks , and if you can't be there you have to leave a list of 20 players , of course there's some flaws in this operation because you always like to know what players got picked to evaluate what's left of the position for later picks but it's just food for thoughts.
Ding ding ding.

Chill out, guys.

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Old
02-13-2011, 03:30 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReenMachine View Post
I thought about a way to make this thing faster but of course it's still just a idea , having pre-determined date for each set of 20 picks , and if you can't be there you have to leave a list of 20 players , of course there's some flaws in this operation because you always like to know what players got picked to evaluate what's left of the position for later picks but it's just food for thoughts.
Far too many variables involved. Twenty players?! No, that would make the ATD almost like listpick fantasy drafts, which universally suck. It is what it is. We had a couple of GMs back-to-back who disappeared for a while; it happens. Life gets in the way. I sincerely hope that Nighthawks is banging Jessica Alba (and not Hal Gill) as we speak.

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Old
02-13-2011, 03:34 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Wonder View Post
I believe this is the highest he's ever gone, but I think he could stand to go even higher. I will select defenseman Lester Patrick. With all the other defensemen available, you pretty much know what you're getting, but the upside for Patrick is huge because most of the sources that talk about him are largely unexplored. I hope to find some great stuff on his play away from the puck. Even if I can't, he adds an amazing offensive dimension to my 2nd pairing.
Jarek

Gahh, thought I could get him at 185, I like that placement that you just took him at. He's underrated as far as defenseman go in All-Time rankings.

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Old
02-13-2011, 03:50 PM
  #64
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Quote:
TDMM picks Art Coulter, D.
Thanks for announcing my pick, Boy Wonder (god, it sounds so gay saying that).

I'm not sure if Coulter was the BDA - he's probably not (I was certainly considering Lester Patrick among others when I made the pick). But if he wasn't the BDA, he was close, and his skillset perfectly compliments Bill Quackenbush's IMO.

Nalyd really sold me on Coulter as a rock solid #2 defenseman in this thing when he (and sturm) were my opponents in ATD12:

-4 Times a 2nd Team All-Star, playing in a very tough era for defensemen - Eddie Shore and Earl Seibert had permanent places on the AS teams at this point, and there were quite a few other very good defensemen in the 1930s (much stronger than the 1940s IMO).

-Coulter was a fantastic defensive defenseman and an absolute physical beast in every sense of the word.

-The Rangers had such confidence in his defensive ability, they used him as the only defenseman along with 3 forwards on an innovative "attacking penalty kill." The Rangers won the 1940 Stanley Cup with this system.

-While he's not a guy to lead the offense up ice (Quack and Henri Richard can handle that), he's quite competent at moving the puck when it's on his stick.

-Like Quack, he's noted for his great endurance, so the pair can play big minutes.

-His undrafted teammate called him "a leader like Mark Messier" and "the best player" on the 1940 Rangers Cup team.

-He's a right-handed shot to boot.

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Old
02-13-2011, 03:58 PM
  #65
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Quote:
agreed

i did not see much difference between zubov (in dallas) and blake (or niedermayer) at the same time. dallas was more structured, though, which helps.
Zubov benefits from "Niedermayer syndrome" in that his best individual seasons were after the lockout and people project that level of play back over his whole career. Whereas Blake's best seasons were all before the lockout. (I'm not saying you're doing that, just that a lot of people do).

There was absolutely no way Zubov or Niedermayer was as good as Blake pre-lockout.

Blake was one of the premiere overall defenseman in hockey for the better part of the dead puck era. Sure, he had his issues - he was known for getting out of position going for the big hit and having to take penalties to compensate (or sometimes just getting burned). Blake's in my division? Better pair him with a guy who can cover for him when he cheats.

Blake's size did let him dominate in front of the net, in addition to his puck moving, so he was a fanstastic PKer. And the guy was probably the 2nd most intimidating open ice hitter of the era after Scott Stevens.

Quote:
What? no way. Blake was talked about as a future norris winner from Day 1. Zubov was considered just an offensive guy for about his first 5 years.
Exactly. If we can call Blake's defensive ability "solid, but overrated do to his big hits," then Zubov's ability pre-lockout ranged from "barely acceptable to total sieve" in his Rangers days (much-maligned Leetch took all the tough defensive assignments), before becoming "adequate" after he worked with a defensive-minded coach in Dallas.

Zubov didn't really take the tough defensive assignments for his team for most of his career (racking up big minutes on a puck moving pair that was kept away from the opposition's best), much like Niedermayer. Blake always had the toughest defensive assignments for his team, except for when Bourque took over those duties in Colorado briefly.

Zubov became a very good two-way defenseman for a brief period of time after the lockout (and I believe he was constantly improving before the lockout, at least after getting a good coach in Dallas), but he's a candidate for the worst defenseman in his own zone who has been taken so far, along with Coffey and maybe one or two others. Though there will be far worse taken.

That said, Zubov's an excellent right hander on the PP. Watching him and Leetch play the points on the PP together for the Rangers was a thing of magic. Perfect pass after perfect pass between the points, until they had an opening. (I hadn't yet realized I had to hate the Rangers yet, so I was still free to appreciate the skill of their players).


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Old
02-13-2011, 04:01 PM
  #66
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Take it from a Sharks fan: Blake is very underrated.

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02-13-2011, 04:08 PM
  #67
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I think there needs to be some disciplinary actions taken against people trying to rush people who are drafting. If you want to fast track a draft I suggest you go play an NHL video game. Weekends is to my knowledge not draft crunch time. People will take their time. Now shut up and either enjoy the draft or leave it.

Quote:
2). The time windows will be tight but reasonable.

12 hour clock for the first two rounds, (shortlists PM'd to me highly encouraged here)
then 8 hour clock for rounds 3-8,
then 6 hour clock for rounds 9-18,
then 4 hour clock for rounds 19-25

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Old
02-13-2011, 04:13 PM
  #68
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Comments on a couple of recent picks:

-I don't think it's too early for Paul Kariya. If you are looking for a lightning fast, offensive minded LW, he's as good a pick as any.

-I don't see much difference between Jacques Lemaire and Ron Francis in terms of peak value. If anything, I'd take Lemaire, since his offense was much better balanced (better goal scorer in other words). Francis is a weird case of a guy who maintained his standard of play for almost 20 years, however.

-I strongly considered taking Holecek over Gardiner, just because I had Gardiner before. I firmly believe that on a "List of the best players," Holecek should be included right along with Parent/Durnan/Belfour/Brimsek/Bower/Gardiner. From what I've read, Holecek was quite clearly better than Tretiak in the 1970s, though he was done by the time Tretiak had his truly dominating peak in the early 1980s. What scared me away from Holecek was that he seemed to have problems against Canada, while giving the Soviets all kinds of problems. And most of the players in the ATD are Canadian. So I went with Chuck Gardiner, the safer pick. Still the BGA available.

-Denis Savard is a great pick. Way to compensate for the criticized Konstantinov pick. Savard was definitely not quite as good as Peter Stastny, but really... was the difference all that big? Savard is a guy who is often underrated do to playing in the best era ever for playmaking centers. There's a reason Savard has been involved in 3 of the last 4 ATD finals - he's always very good value where he's taken.

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02-13-2011, 04:21 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Exactly. If we can call Blake's defensive ability "solid, but overrated do to his big hits," then Zubov's ability pre-lockout ranged from "barely acceptable to total sieve" in his Rangers days (much-maligned Leetch took all the tough defensive assignments), before becoming "adequate" after he worked with a defensive-minded coach in Dallas.
Heh. I remember calling Zubov "an adventure in his own zone" back in ATD#8 I think it was and making a couple of GMs pretty mad. I think Zubie benefits a bit from short-memory syndrome because he was much more solid defensively in Dallas than he'd ever been before, and that's the last image we saw of him.

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02-13-2011, 04:40 PM
  #70
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Punch Broadbent, RW


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02-13-2011, 04:45 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
177. Boy Wonder - North Pole Penguinators - Jessica Alba, G
If the draft list is to be believed, I think the Boy Wonder may have made the steal of the draft

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02-13-2011, 04:47 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Leafs Forever View Post
If the draft list is to be believed, I think the Boy Wonder may have made the steal of the draft
Hardly, she's not even AA-level.

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Old
02-13-2011, 04:55 PM
  #73
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Punch Broadbent, RW

I can't help but laugh at this picture , he looks like he's 10 years old lol

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02-13-2011, 05:01 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Zubov benefits from "Niedermayer syndrome" in that his best individual seasons were after the lockout and people project that level of play back over his whole career. Whereas Blake's best seasons were all before the lockout. (I'm not saying you're doing that, just that a lot of people do).

There was absolutely no way Zubov or Niedermayer was as good as Blake pre-lockout.

Blake was one of the premiere overall defenseman in hockey for the better part of the dead puck era. Sure, he had his issues - he was known for getting out of position going for the big hit and having to take penalties to compensate (or sometimes just getting burned). Blake's in my division? Better pair him with a guy who can cover for him when he cheats.

Blake's size did let him dominate in front of the net, in addition to his puck moving, so he was a fanstastic PKer. And the guy was probably the 2nd most intimidating open ice hitter of the era after Scott Stevens.

Exactly. If we can call Blake's defensive ability "solid, but overrated do to his big hits," then Zubov's ability pre-lockout ranged from "barely acceptable to total sieve" in his Rangers days (much-maligned Leetch took all the tough defensive assignments), before becoming "adequate" after he worked with a defensive-minded coach in Dallas.

Zubov didn't really take the tough defensive assignments for his team for most of his career (racking up big minutes on a puck moving pair that was kept away from the opposition's best), much like Niedermayer. Blake always had the toughest defensive assignments for his team, except for when Bourque took over those duties in Colorado briefly.

Zubov became a very good two-way defenseman for a brief period of time after the lockout (and I believe he was constantly improving before the lockout, at least after getting a good coach in Dallas), but he's a candidate for the worst defenseman in his own zone who has been taken so far, along with Coffey and maybe one or two others. Though there will be far worse taken.

That said, Zubov's an excellent right hander on the PP. Watching him and Leetch play the points on the PP together for the Rangers was a thing of magic. Perfect pass after perfect pass between the points, until they had an opening. (I hadn't yet realized I had to hate the Rangers yet, so I was still free to appreciate the skill of their players).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Heh. I remember calling Zubov "an adventure in his own zone" back in ATD#8 I think it was and making a couple of GMs pretty mad. I think Zubie benefits a bit from short-memory syndrome because he was much more solid defensively in Dallas than he'd ever been before, and that's the last image we saw of him.
i think those are generally true, and i think blake was better defensively, but the vast majority of zubov's NHL career was in dallas, 11 of 16 seasons (and 2005 would have been another). 1st 5 seasons is not a good way to judge players, and especially not d-men.

i don't think many of us are thinking of plante with NYR or shanahan with NJD or chara with NYI.

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02-13-2011, 05:06 PM
  #75
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i think those are generally true, and i think blake was better defensively, but the vast majority of zubov's NHL career was in dallas, 11 of 16 seasons (and 2005 would have been another). 1st 5 seasons is not a good way to judge players, and especially not d-men.

i don't think many of us are thinking of plante with NYR or shanahan with NJD or chara with NYI.
I view it as Zubov's "sieve" years at the beginning cancel out his "excellent" year or two post-lockout.

So I look at what he did for most of his time in Dallas, when he was good enough to play very well against second rate NHL competition. I would not want him on a top pairing at the ATD level.


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