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I hope we get nobody at the trade deadline

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Old
02-15-2011, 02:48 PM
  #76
Buddy The Elf
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Originally Posted by santiclaws View Post
"Hoarding" happens because DL is very particular when it comes to acquiring players. When he feels he found "his" type of a deal - he moves. Witness Johnson, Williams, Smyth, Stoll, Greene all coming here via trade and becoming an integral part of the team. The man is all about getting value for his assets. Having lots of tradeable assets is a problem any GM would love to have. Lombardi has a plan and is sticking to it. Agree or disagree, you know what you're going to get with him. It's the right deal (in his estimation), or it is no deal.
That is great and all but if there isn't anyone who is willing to give him the value he wants, then he'll be stuck with what he has. Imagine if the team misses the playoffs this year. Is DL going to tell season ticket holders "you know, I'd like to add somebody to improve this team but I can't get full value so the young guys are just going to have to get better". I'm sorry but at some point he is going to have to bite the bullet or we'll be stuck waiting for prospects to pan out. Meanwhile, good luck selling that to your fan base over the next few seasons! People have waited long enough. Find a way to improve the team. Other team's GMs do it regularly without mortgaging the future.

The Versteeg or Fisher moves would not have crippled this franchise in the least. With the prospect depth the Kings have, losing a few draft picks isn't going to kill them.

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02-15-2011, 02:50 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Olli Jokinen.

DL didn't trade away a lot of prospects to be honest, his trades were more veteran for veteran, like the Murray+Stumpel for Allison and Eloranta trade, or else was adding picks/players in dumps like the Rob Blake trade.

As for Boyle, Purcell and Moulson, I don't recall to many fans being upset when they left, but now that we have hindsight it's easy to throw the darts at DL. There were plenty of people applauding DL for getting a 3rd for Boyle, and some even said it was addition by subtraction to trade away Purcell. Moulson, I doubt if anyone shed much of a tear when he left either, in fact I don't recall even one post dedicated to whether or not he should be kept.
I was one of a few posters here who said time and again that both Boyle and Moulson were treated incorrectly and that they would go on to be solid NHLers (or at least I believed so). Purcell is still a middle of the road guy but the deal that sent him to TB turned out to be a bad one for us and I had nothing to say about it. I suppose it could be argued that the TB deal was alright with Modin playing well and Halpern having the potential to have at least given an NHL effort but both points are arguable.

As to how we dealt with Moulson and Boyle, we made mistakes but it absolutely happens to every team. There were a few posters here who weren't happy about what happened with both of these kids though, of that you can be sure.

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02-15-2011, 03:00 PM
  #78
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Just to be clear, I'm not upset at all that DL missed out on FIsher and Versteeg. I just think the trade value that they received was fair value and that they were both good hockey deals, not these horrible overpayments people round here think they were.

Its funny that anytime a 1st gets traded, people expect a star player to be involved, but that is really not the case, particularly at the trade deadline. 1st rounders get tossed around like candy and aren't that valuable unless you are a bottom basement team. The draft order is FAR from set, so you can't really align too much value to anyone's first other than Edmonton's, Ottawa's or NYIs. You can't even say New Jersey's since they are on such a tear. That pick could be 3-5th or drop down to ~10th. Big value difference there.

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02-15-2011, 03:02 PM
  #79
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As to when to make a move goes I am one of those people who feel that we are still a year, maybe two away from being ready to make a seven or maybe even eight year run at being legitimate contenders and the reason that I feel this way is the manner in which our team is/has been being built.

We hang onto our most talented prospects/picks and draft with an insane amount of accuracy and develop NHL players out of them. We have had our misses but they don't come close to the amount of gold we have found and this is why we are so close to success in my opinion.

Up front next year we will have a young Schenn who is going to continue to develop into an exceptional top six player for us. We have Kozun, Moller, Toffoli Kitsyn and Vey who are all NHL caliber young players and will be ready within the next year or two to prove themselves.

We are overloaded on the blue line and giving the kids this season to develop also allows us the ability to move one of our veteran D if we decide to do so. Muzzin, Voynov and Hickey are all NHL ready but bring different things to the table and in a couple of seasons Forbort and Deslauriers will be ready too.

We have built and are building a pipeline for talented players to consistently come up and fill the holes that develop as time goes on. We just aren't at the place where we can do so right now. Its like taking cookies out of the oven cause your hungry instead of waiting until their done and will be the best, its always better to wait it just isn't easy.

After over 40 years of struggling for doing exactly what some of us want to do now (dealing away picks and prospects for "proven" players) can't we wait another season or two to see this rebuild through?

I know we were all told it would be well on its way to gold by now and some of us aren't satisfied and arguably so but it isn't an exact science and we are just so darn close that I would hate to see us deal away first round picks and or talented kids in the hopes that we will be getting a star player in return, it can happen but it is a pretty rare thing.

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02-15-2011, 03:08 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
ove the team. Other team's GMs do it regularly without mortgaging the future.

The Versteeg or Fisher moves would not have crippled this franchise in the least. With the prospect depth the Kings have, losing a few draft picks isn't going to kill them.
No, but you lose chips you could use in making the deal you are looking for. The Fisher deal simply did not make a lot of sense with both Schenn and Loktionov in the pipeline in my opinion. Versteeg is an OK player, but would he have been a "difference maker" on the Kings? No. He is a depth player. Do you seriously believe that this team would be much better with Versteeg than without him? For Philly, an incremental difference may make them Cup winners. The Kings are not there yet. Versteeg types are available pretty regularly.

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02-15-2011, 03:28 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Just to be clear, I'm not upset at all that DL missed out on FIsher and Versteeg. I just think the trade value that they received was fair value and that they were both good hockey deals, not these horrible overpayments people round here think they were.

Its funny that anytime a 1st gets traded, people expect a star player to be involved, but that is really not the case, particularly at the trade deadline. 1st rounders get tossed around like candy and aren't that valuable unless you are a bottom basement team. The draft order is FAR from set, so you can't really align too much value to anyone's first other than Edmonton's, Ottawa's or NYIs. You can't even say New Jersey's since they are on such a tear. That pick could be 3-5th or drop down to ~10th. Big value difference there.
Sorry.. didn't mean to put words on your keyboard but that is all I'm saying as well. I could see the logic in doing either deal, though.

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Originally Posted by santiclaws View Post
No, but you lose chips you could use in making the deal you are looking for. The Fisher deal simply did not make a lot of sense with both Schenn and Loktionov in the pipeline in my opinion. Versteeg is an OK player, but would he have been a "difference maker" on the Kings? No. He is a depth player. Do you seriously believe that this team would be much better with Versteeg than without him? For Philly, an incremental difference may make them Cup winners. The Kings are not there yet. Versteeg types are available pretty regularly.
Really? I guess DL can go get one this summer when there is nothing available via UFA. I don't think that is accurate.

For the most part, DL has been an opportunist in most of his trades. DL can keep holding his "chips" for the right deal that will maximize his assets but that may never present itself. I'm really curious to see what DL does between now and the summer because his legacy is on the line right now. This is the pay off pitch for him. What he does also depends on how the team performs down the stretch and in the playoffs (should they make it).

DL has had the luxury of being able to be patient in the past because there weren't immediate needs until the team was actually competitive. Now that the team is competitive and struggling to stay in the western playoff race, he doesn't really have the luxury to wait until that perfect deal comes around.

The Kings could use Versteeg's goals. He would be better than any option the Kings have used on the top line LW spot all year. I think at bare minimum, he would have given continuity to the line up down the stretch and dealing a 1st and 3rd would not have crippled the Kings in the long run.

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02-15-2011, 03:32 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
If you aren't willing to pay the price, somebody else will (and did). You'll be sitting here for a long time trying to get the perfect value. DL is going to have to bend over and take it if he wants to improve the team. There just isn't any other way he is going ot get it done. It is a sellers market and teams aren't going to give players away because they know that there aren't very many options out there. There isn't anything available via free agency this summer either. There is no way around it, DL is going to have to part with something valuable if he wants to fill that hole or add some scoring in some capacity. There is no way around it.
You don't get perfect value, you can get perfect timing though, and at this point there doesn't seem to be much support for LA trading a 1st and 3rd for a second line winger. Adding Versteeg doesn't necessarily add 20-25 goals to our line up. He will take the place of someone, bumping that players ice time and procduction down in the process. There isn't a huge difference in getting back Sturm and adding Versteeg from a strictly offensive point of view, and no one is suggesting Sturm is going to lift us above the Deroit's and Vancouver's.

Now isn't the right time to get a Versteeg. In Philly, with a number of legitimate front line players, they felt the need to add secondary scoring, and paid a premium for that. That's fine. We have a greater level of secondary scoring than Philly, if the players we have were allowed to play their roles. Adding a top end goalscorer would allow for that, Versteeg does not. We critize DL for not doing the big trade, but then ask/demand he overspend on second tier players?

He does have to spend, but he does not have to spend on this caliber of player, especially given their overinflated cost.

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02-15-2011, 03:36 PM
  #83
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Toffoli-Kopi-Brown
Moller-Schenn-Williams
Vey-Loktionov-Clifford/Simmonds
Kitsyn-Lewis-Richardson/Cliche

DD-Scuds
JJ-Muzzin/Greene
Voinov-Martinez

I think some people think that that line-up is just waiting around the corner (and it might be), and that all of the players in our prospect pool will work out, and they will be able to perform and compete at the highest level, and match up well against the best teams in the NHL. It's possible, but the chances of it are pretty slim. They might succeed or they might fall flat on their faces like another young, home-grown team, like the Avs. It's definitely a risk.

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02-15-2011, 03:46 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
You don't get perfect value, you can get perfect timing though, and at this point there doesn't seem to be much support for LA trading a 1st and 3rd for a second line winger. Adding Versteeg doesn't necessarily add 20-25 goals to our line up. He will take the place of someone, bumping that players ice time and procduction down in the process. There isn't a huge difference in getting back Sturm and adding Versteeg from a strictly offensive point of view, and no one is suggesting Sturm is going to lift us above the Deroit's and Vancouver's.

Now isn't the right time to get a Versteeg. In Philly, with a number of legitimate front line players, they felt the need to add secondary scoring, and paid a premium for that. That's fine. We have a greater level of secondary scoring than Philly, if the players we have were allowed to play their roles. Adding a top end goalscorer would allow for that, Versteeg does not. We critize DL for not doing the big trade, but then ask/demand he overspend on second tier players?

He does have to spend, but he does not have to spend on this caliber of player, especially given their overinflated cost.
Lewis, Richardson, Ponikarovsky....I don't think we are going to miss the production of any of these guys. Sure Lewis and Richardson play hard, but their offensive contributions have been less than minimal. They DO need to be bumped down the depth chart for people who actually chip in some offense like Clifford and Simmonds do.

In regards to secondary scoring...

Our primary scoring comes from Brown, Kopi, and the Stoll line. Secondary scoring comes from the bottom 6...and our bottom 6 scoring is extremely rare. in the last 6 games....the ONLY bottom 6 goal was from Loktionov. It has been all Kopi, Williams, and the PP scoring and it has been like this ALL season. When Zus and Simmonds were on the 3rd line they didn't do much offensively. Sure they played a good checking game but they need to put the puck in from time to time. 4th line has done nothing offensively regardless of whether the center was Zus, Richie, or Lewis.

We have 5 guys with 10+ goals and they are all the guys who should have 10+

The Flyers have 8 guys including Leino, JVR, and Zherdez. Versteeg makes 9.

When it comes to secondary scoring....the Flyers secondary scoring is the reason they are so good, and we aren't even close to them talent wise in either primary or secondary scoring.


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02-15-2011, 03:52 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
After over 40 years of struggling for doing exactly what some of us want to do now (dealing away picks and prospects for "proven" players) can't we wait another season or two to see this rebuild through?

I know we were all told it would be well on its way to gold by now and some of us aren't satisfied and arguably so but it isn't an exact science and we are just so darn close that I would hate to see us deal away first round picks and or talented kids in the hopes that we will be getting a star player in return, it can happen but it is a pretty rare thing.
Great analysis.... we're seeing a shift in the way teams get into contention... it's not about "impact trades" anymore. It's all development. And more development. And then a missing piece kind of trade.

The other thing that affects the patient development model is knowing that when a team does get into contention for seven or eight years in a row, it's draft picks get moved down. It's almost mandatory to keep them all while in development and stocking mode because that's when you get your best pieces. And those pieces have to last for awhile as you move down in the draft.

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02-15-2011, 03:54 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Really? I guess DL can go get one this summer when there is nothing available via UFA. I don't think that is accurate.
I don't mean that they are available only via UFA. But it is not that difficult to trade for a player of Versteeg's caliber because he is no one's "untouchable." His value is at its highest right now, with lots of teams looking for help during the playoff push.

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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
DL has had the luxury of being able to be patient in the past because there weren't immediate needs until the team was actually competitive. Now that the team is competitive and struggling to stay in the western playoff race, he doesn't really have the luxury to wait until that perfect deal comes around.
I could not disagree more. Patience is more important now than ever before. Lombardi has one goal - the Cup. The goal is not "get into the playoffs." They're not ready to with the Cup this season and probably won't be for two or three more seasons. This season's playoff push will serve in many ways to separate the wheat from the chaff. Who is going to step up and who is going to fold? Who needs to be dealt in the offseason? Is this "the core" that is necessary to win the Cup in a couple of years or does the team need to get rid of a piece or two? If missing the playoffs this season, by not expending assets on a player that is not a key component of the ultimate goal, contributes to the team's long-term success, let them miss the playoffs.

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02-15-2011, 03:54 PM
  #87
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Olli Jokinen.

DL didn't trade away a lot of prospects to be honest, his trades were more veteran for veteran, like the Murray+Stumpel for Allison and Eloranta trade, or else was adding picks/players in dumps like the Rob Blake trade.

As for Boyle, Purcell and Moulson, I don't recall to many fans being upset when they left, but now that we have hindsight it's easy to throw the darts at DL. There were plenty of people applauding DL for getting a 3rd for Boyle, and some even said it was addition by subtraction to trade away Purcell. Moulson, I doubt if anyone shed much of a tear when he left either, in fact I don't recall even one post dedicated to whether or not he should be kept.
It is rumored that the NHL made DT add Jokinen so it would not look like a salary dump. Either way I do that trade any day. DT had the balls to make moves for star players like Palffy and Allison. As for the whole Purcell/Boyle thing yes hindsight is 20-20 put what the hell have Tambellini and Grebeshkov done? That deal is a wash too IMO

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02-15-2011, 03:56 PM
  #88
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As to when to make a move goes I am one of those people who feel that we are still a year, maybe two away from being ready to make a seven or maybe even eight year run at being legitimate contenders and the reason that I feel this way is the manner in which our team is/has been being built.

We hang onto our most talented prospects/picks and draft with an insane amount of accuracy and develop NHL players out of them. We have had our misses but they don't come close to the amount of gold we have found and this is why we are so close to success in my opinion.

Up front next year we will have a young Schenn who is going to continue to develop into an exceptional top six player for us. We have Kozun, Moller, Toffoli Kitsyn and Vey who are all NHL caliber young players and will be ready within the next year or two to prove themselves.

We are overloaded on the blue line and giving the kids this season to develop also allows us the ability to move one of our veteran D if we decide to do so. Muzzin, Voynov and Hickey are all NHL ready but bring different things to the table and in a couple of seasons Forbort and Deslauriers will be ready too.

We have built and are building a pipeline for talented players to consistently come up and fill the holes that develop as time goes on. We just aren't at the place where we can do so right now. Its like taking cookies out of the oven cause your hungry instead of waiting until their done and will be the best, its always better to wait it just isn't easy.

After over 40 years of struggling for doing exactly what some of us want to do now (dealing away picks and prospects for "proven" players) can't we wait another season or two to see this rebuild through?

I know we were all told it would be well on its way to gold by now and some of us aren't satisfied and arguably so but it isn't an exact science and we are just so darn close that I would hate to see us deal away first round picks and or talented kids in the hopes that we will be getting a star player in return, it can happen but it is a pretty rare thing.
So if right now Lou offered Dean is signed Parise for Schenn, Bernier, and Voynov you wouldn't want him to do it?

I'm only against most of the proposed deals because they're for players that wont make a difference (Versteeg, Booth ect). But if we can get a legit young top line talent, that improves the team now, and in the future, then I'm all for it.

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02-15-2011, 03:58 PM
  #89
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It is rumored that the NHL made DT add Jokinen so it would not look like a salary dump. Either way I do that trade any day. DT had the balls to make moves for star players like Palffy and Allison. As for the whole Purcell/Boyle thing yes hindsight is 20-20 put what the hell have Tambellini and Grebeshkov done? That deal is a wash too IMO
That deal got us Simmonds....we win.

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02-15-2011, 04:05 PM
  #90
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I don't mean that they are available only via UFA. But it is not that difficult to trade for a player of Versteeg's caliber because he is no one's "untouchable." His value is at its highest right now, with lots of teams looking for help during the playoff push.
If it isn't that difficult, why hasn't DL acquired a player of his caliber last offseason? The Kings desperately needed scoring, everyone knew that. He either dropped the ball or what you are saying is readily available isn't. Or maybe he was trying to send a cryptic message to the players about getting better?

Hey I've been a DL supporter from the beginning and I still like what he has done but my patience is wearing thin. This has been 5 long years and I want to start seeing some results. You guys seem to give him an awful lot of rope.

What happens if they miss the playoffs this season and next season too? Stay the course?

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02-15-2011, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
If it isn't that difficult, why hasn't DL acquired a player of his caliber last offseason? The Kings desperately needed scoring, everyone knew that. He either dropped the ball or what you are saying is readily available isn't. Or maybe he was trying to send a cryptic message to the players about getting better?
He did.

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02-15-2011, 04:11 PM
  #92
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It is rumored that the NHL made DT add Jokinen so it would not look like a salary dump. Either way I do that trade any day. DT had the balls to make moves for star players like Palffy and Allison. As for the whole Purcell/Boyle thing yes hindsight is 20-20 put what the hell have Tambellini and Grebeshkov done? That deal is a wash too IMO
I don't think its a rumor that Bettman rejected the first Palffy trade, I'm pretty sure it's a fact.

DT trading away prospects was never the issue. It was his inability to draft and develop prospects which was the issue. Just look at DL's draft years. Eight players from the 2007 to 2009 drafts have already played in the NHL. That's damn impressive.

Boyle was mishandled for sure, with that failed move to defense. Moulson found greener pastures on a terrible team. Purcell would be a healthy scratch if still with us. Moulson and Purcell were free agent signings. Not much of a loss in the end.

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02-15-2011, 04:20 PM
  #93
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He did.
And who is that? Ponikarovsky?

Versteeg is on his way to his 3rd 20 goal season at 25 years of age. Ponikarovsky didn't have a 20 goal season until he was 25.

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02-15-2011, 04:20 PM
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Just for perspective, which player would you want? Shouldn't be too hard to figure out these 2 players...stats are to date

1) 214gp 34g-49a-83p

2) 210gp 58g-78a-136p Calder finalist

Say what you want about intangibles of player 1...but a 50+ point difference in 2 and a half seasons is ALOT. Yes, player 2 is 2 years older than player 1

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02-15-2011, 04:25 PM
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If it isn't that difficult, why hasn't DL acquired a player of his caliber last offseason? The Kings desperately needed scoring, everyone knew that. He either dropped the ball or what you are saying is readily available isn't. Or maybe he was trying to send a cryptic message to the players about getting better?

Hey I've been a DL supporter from the beginning and I still like what he has done but my patience is wearing thin. This has been 5 long years and I want to start seeing some results. You guys seem to give him an awful lot of rope.

What happens if they miss the playoffs this season and next season too? Stay the course?
100+ points last year not enough progress?

As for lamenting about missing the playoffs this year and next, is that even worth discussing right now given that they are in thick of the playoff race and on a 7-0-2 run?

If it is any solace, look at where Chicago and Colorado are in the standings right now...

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02-15-2011, 04:28 PM
  #96
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I'm curious... anyone feel free to answer.

What if the Kings do not make the playoffs this season? What changes, if any, do you propose in the offseason?

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02-15-2011, 04:32 PM
  #97
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And who is that? Ponikarovsky?

Versteeg is on his way to his 3rd 20 goal season at 25 years of age. Ponikarovsky didn't have a 20 goal season until he was 25.
OMG! He's so awesome! A player like that would definately fix our scoring problems!

Poni is a 2-way, 20 goal, 50 point, 2nd/3rd liner just like Versteeg. And before you argue the AP only has X points right now, and is on X line, the same thing could have happened to Versteeg here because his skill set is completely redundant on this team.

If DL makes a move I want to hear names like Nash, Parise, B. Ryan, Eriksson ect. coming back. Otherwise, there's no point in making a move.

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02-15-2011, 04:41 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
OMG! He's so awesome! A player like that would definately fix our scoring problems!

Poni is a 2-way, 20 goal, 50 point, 2nd/3rd liner just like Versteeg. And before you argue the AP only has X points right now, and is on X line, the same thing could have happened to Versteeg here because his skill set is completely redundant on this team.

If DL makes a move I want to hear names like Nash, Parise, B. Ryan, Eriksson ect. coming back. Otherwise, there's no point in making a move.
I'm not suggesting he is the answer. But I do think he'd be more effective than Ponikarovsky in a scoring position. I'm wasn't trying to belittle Ponikarovsky, I was asking you because I legitimately wasn't sure if that is who you were referring to. I don't think Versteeg is redundant on the Kings, though. He'd be the best option on the Kings top line that the Kings have used all season.

If those are the types of players we expect to see in return, expect to see some serious value headed the other way. None of those teams have any reason to get rid of any of those players.

Like I've said, i'm on board with what DL has done but regardless if the team makes the playoffs or not, I think everyone is in agreement that this isn't a contender. I guess the disagreement is how they get there. I don't think sitting idle waiting "for something to come up" is going to result in the Kings becoming a contender. We'll be waiting a long time...

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02-15-2011, 04:42 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I'm curious... anyone feel free to answer.

What if the Kings do not make the playoffs this season? What changes, if any, do you propose in the offseason?
Missing the playoffs with 90 points calls for very different answers than missing the playoffs with 70 points.

Also, missing the playoffs with a young core calls for very different answers than missing the playoffs with an aging core.

My answer to your question given that this will be a 90 point team with a young core? Continue to upgrade the roster and draft well. Don't panic by making stupid "quick fix" trades that are the trademark of all poorly run teams. Make sure that the young core players take ownership for their own success and continue to develop and stay focused.

That's what I would do. And you?

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02-15-2011, 04:43 PM
  #100
Buddy The Elf
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But I do disagree that Versteeg and Ponikarovsky are interchangable. Sure they could play similar roles but I think Versteeg has a lot more upside than Ponikarovsky and has accomplished more at a younger age than Ponikarovsky did.

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