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Old
02-15-2011, 06:02 PM
  #126
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[QUOTE=DeeMeck;30943854]
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Lewis, Richardson, Ponikarovsky....
How do you bump a 4th line down, besides scratch them? And then someone above has to go down to play their roles, which lessens their production, and someone goes down off the 2nd line to the 3rd, lower production, and so on. You don't drop Lewis and put in Versteeg and just trade off Lewis' two goals for Versteeg's 14. Someoen on the top two lines is losing ice time with Versteeg coming in, and it's clearly not Lewis, Poni or Richie.


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When it comes to secondary scoring....the Flyers secondary scoring is the reason they are so good, and we aren't even close to them talent wise in either primary or secondary scoring.
No it's not. When your top four forwards have accounted for nearly 100 goals already, that's why they are so good. You give us ONE of Briere, Carter, Richards and Giroux and do you think we are complaining near as much? They are why Versteeg works in Philly, because he can slide in on the second line and provide SECONDARY scoring. secondary scoring is from your guys who aren't you stars or key pieces. Our problem isn't secondary scoring, just as you pointed out by saying how many 10+ goal scorers we have. Our issue is the lack of 20+ goalscorers at this point in the season. We need a top guy, not another Versteeg.

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02-15-2011, 06:04 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Based on what? We've tried almost everyone on the top line, and what about Versteeg or his production makes you think he'd have done any better?
Based on his 3 20 goal seasons. What have the Kings tried on the top line? Loktionov, Dwight King, Richardson, Ponikarovsky, Clifford... maybe you disagree but I think Versteeg is better than all those options. That is just my opinion. Apparently, I'm in the minority.

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Fine, so in a parallel universe where (1) Gaborik is not a china doll and (2) Simmonds is as good as Brown and (3) our d prospects are redundant because Scuderi, Green, and Mitchell have signed lifetime contracts, and (4) our 1st rounder is already a bust, then I totally agree with you.
1) You are missing the point. Erase Gaborik's name and insert any 30 goal scorer. I just used Gaborik as an example because of the rumors about the Rangers getting rid of him. That is why I said hypothetical...

2) Simmonds can do what Brown can do. I guess we'll just have to disagree on that. I fully expect to see one or the other traded at some point. You have to give to get and those are a couple of our more valuable trading pieces.

3) I never said a damn thing about our prospects making Scuderi, Greene and Mitchell being redundant. We have a stocked cupboard and eventually those guys are going to have to be moved to make room for new guys. Or are you under the idea that the Kings will hold onto all of them until they know if they've panned out or not?

4) Again, it has nothing to do with being a bust. The Kings could pick the next Datsyuk in the draft. You aren't going to know for 3-4 years at the earliest and probably closer to 5. I'd sure the Kings are contending for a Cup by then but I guess you're willing to wait an eternity.

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Originally Posted by SFKingshomer View Post
Not worth making a trade unless it's a legit 1st liner. We have enough marginal 2nd liners as is.


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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Ironically, Toronto is just as goal starved as the Kings and they didn't think enough of Versteeg to keep him around...interesting....I wonder why.
You are comparing apples and oranges. Toronto is not in the same position as the Kings. They are abottom dweller not expected to make the playoffs. They also have a GM that is a tad erratic.

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02-15-2011, 06:08 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by nK View Post
It is rumored that the NHL made DT add Jokinen so it would not look like a salary dump. Either way I do that trade any day. DT had the balls to make moves for star players like Palffy and Allison. As for the whole Purcell/Boyle thing yes hindsight is 20-20 put what the hell have Tambellini and Grebeshkov done? That deal is a wash too IMO
They didn't do much. In hindsight. At the time, their value was still pretty strong, and DT didn't maximize it all in getting a struggling Parrish and Sopel. At the time Boyle and Purcell were traded, and Moulson was let go, their value was very low. Base a move on the time it was done. Not many Kings fans were to happy with the Parrish/Sopel deal, and not to many gave a crap about the Boyle/Purcell trades, for a reason.

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02-15-2011, 06:15 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
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If it isn't that difficult, why hasn't DL acquired a player of his caliber last offseason?
The Kings desperately needed scoring, everyone knew that. He either dropped the ball or what you are saying is readily available isn't. Or maybe he was trying to send a cryptic message to the players about getting better?

Hey I've been a DL supporter from the beginning and I still like what he has done but my patience is wearing thin. This has been 5 long years and I want to start seeing some results. You guys seem to give him an awful lot of rope.

What happens if they miss the playoffs this season and next season too? Stay the course?
Forget the Kovalchuk drama did we? If Kovalchuk would have signed in the first few days like every other top end free agent in every other free agent period in the last two decades, then maybe he would have moved on and signed that Versteeg-esque guy. At least he tried to get Kovalchuk, and given the contract, I'm glad he didn't, but that prolonged effort from a drama queen in Kovalchuk would have thrown a wrench into anyone's efforts.

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02-15-2011, 06:18 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
Just for perspective, which player would you want? Shouldn't be too hard to figure out these 2 players...stats are to date

1) 214gp 34g-49a-83p

2) 210gp 58g-78a-136p Calder finalist

Say what you want about intangibles of player 1...but a 50+ point difference in 2 and a half seasons is ALOT. Yes, player 2 is 2 years older than player 1
Different styles of player, and maybe we should see where Simmonds is at the same age. If Simmonds was on pace for another 40 point season, you also wouldn't have used him as an example. He's taken a step back, but there's no reason he can't rebound and have a 50 point season next year, just like Versteeg is doing.

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02-15-2011, 06:20 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by tomd View Post
Ironically, Toronto is just as goal starved as the Kings and they didn't think enough of Versteeg to keep him around...interesting....I wonder why.
I think you're being a little shortsighted. Toronto isn't going to be any good this year or next. They are maximizing their value for a guy who isn't going to be around when they are any good. They get 2 decent picks who WILL be around if they ever get it going.

All it has to do is getting value for a guy. Lombardi did it with Demitra and sent everyone into a hissy fit...it is a similar trade.

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02-15-2011, 06:21 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I'm curious... anyone feel free to answer.

What if the Kings do not make the playoffs this season? What changes, if any, do you propose in the offseason?
Depends on how we miss. If we lose 20 of our last 26 games, yeah we need a shake up. If we keep playing at this pace we have been on lately, and the teams around us win at an even greater pace, how can we be truely upset?

Btw, don't forget LA was having a similar season last year until they went on a huge run in the final 30 games.

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02-15-2011, 06:24 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
1 is Simmonds

2 is Versteeg

I really don't get all the hate for Versteeg. Versteeg also has 26 points in 39 playoff games.
I don't hate Versteeg, I just don't think he's the answer to our needs or worth the cost of acquiring him.

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02-15-2011, 06:26 PM
  #134
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next year (2011-2012) we will have one spot open on the back end if there are no injuries:

Doughty Johnson
Martinez Greene
Scuderi Mitchell
???

Voynov
Muzzin
Hickey
Drewiske
Deslauries(Could be better than all of them)
Teubert
Forbort

The following year (2012-2013) we might have one or two more openings:

Doughty Johnson
Voynov (Greene)
(Martinez) ???
???

One of Hickey, Teubert, Drewiske, Martinez or Voynov should be moved this year IMHO for an upgrade. You just can't keep them all.

D prospect + #1 overall + ??? for an upgrade if possible.

My guess is we end up with Penner or Booth

Forwards for the stretch run:
(Penner/Booth) Kopitar Simmonds
Smyth Stoll Williams
Sturm Loktionov Brown
Clifford Handzus Poni
Lewis?
Richardson?
Parse?


Last edited by Knight of the Realm: 02-15-2011 at 06:36 PM.
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02-15-2011, 06:30 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Forget the Kovalchuk drama did we? If Kovalchuk would have signed in the first few days like every other top end free agent in every other free agent period in the last two decades, then maybe he would have moved on and signed that Versteeg-esque guy. At least he tried to get Kovalchuk, and given the contract, I'm glad he didn't, but that prolonged effort from a drama queen in Kovalchuk would have thrown a wrench into anyone's efforts.
I didn't forget anything. The comment I was responding to said that Versteeg type players are readily available. I don't think that is accurate. We could desperately use a 20 goal scorer for the top line LW.

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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Depends on how we miss. If we lose 20 of our last 26 games, yeah we need a shake up. If we keep playing at this pace we have been on lately, and the teams around us win at an even greater pace, how can we be truely upset?

Btw, don't forget LA was having a similar season last year until they went on a huge run in the final 30 games.
And this is supposed to be a year where we improve on last year's performance. I don't care where the team finishes in the standings as long as they make the playoffs. Winning a round is an impovement.

We can be upset because the team dogged it in January when the season was on the line. Not making the playoffs would be a major disappointment for both fans and the team. I dont' see how anyone could see otherwise.

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02-15-2011, 06:30 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I think this is about the time that DL needs to be aggressive in improving the roster. If they miss the playoffs or receive another early exit, I think they need to look close at who really are the key pieces to this team and start plugging holes. I guess it totally depends on what is available in the trade market because that is only way I think the team is going to improve. In which case, I fully expect to see some valuable prospects, picks and potentially roster players moved. What are the team's strengths and weaknesses? Strengths = goaltening and defense. Weakness = goal scoring. More specifically, top 6 wingers. The Kings stand to lose Justin Williams this offseason too as it stands now. There is nobody on the UFA market that is going to replace his production. The Kings almost HAVE to re-sign him.

The bottom line is, you say don't make quick fix trades, well, what if there is nothing out there? Are we going into next season with virtually the same roster and expecting different results? Are these young guys going to improve that much? Is that a fair expectation without help? These are all questions I think the answer is "no".
I think we need to resign Williams as well, but we won't be entering with the same roster. Schenn and Loktionov for sure should be making the team full time, and any time you can ad players of those abilities it will improve the play of the wingers they are with. If we resign Williams, add Schenn and Loktionov and maybe Mollar as well, we are increasing our offense from within.

We can also add a guy like Vertseeg at the draft at a likely much better cost, the draft is when a lot of offensive talent is available for trade, see past draft day deals for reference.

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02-15-2011, 06:37 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Versteeg would put up 20 goals on the left wing of the top line. Who in the Kings line up can or is going to do that? The answer is nobody. The guy is 24 years old too. Everyone keeps talking about how our players are going to keep getting better. We'll the same applies to Versteeg right?
You don't know that. If you, or anyone else would have said Poni would have eight points in 36 games this year, not many would have bought into that, so to say with any certainty Vertseeg would have scored 20 goals in LA isn't accurate.

In addition, what makes Versteeg better than Ryan Smyth? or Marco Sturm? Or possibly Parse, who the Kings felt was a top two line winger coming out of camp? Smyth couldn't fit in with Kopitar well, and he has a heck of a lot more experience on the top line than Vertseeg, and Sturm and Parse are coming back so why not let them have a real chance to help out the top lines? I'd rather take a chance on those two guys then peddle out a 1st and 3rd for a guy who may not be any better.

For the record Parse had 11 goals in 59 games last year, while Versteeg as 14 in 53 this year, and was on pace for 66 points this year before getting hurt, while Sturm was scoring at a 20+ goal pace over a full season before getting hurt, and was doing so after coming back from a significant injury. Why would we not give these guys a chance before we trade two good assets for a guy with a career high of 22 goals?

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02-15-2011, 06:39 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
The low 1st, Bergfors, and Cormier weren't MAJOR prospects, and that was for a 50-goal scorer.
As a rental. What 50 goal scorer is on the market as a rental?

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02-15-2011, 06:43 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
As a rental. What 50 goal scorer is on the market as a rental?
Milan Hejduk?

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02-15-2011, 06:44 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
I wouldn't trade Doughty for anyone in league. Sure I'd trade him for Crosby but lets be realistic.

I'm willing to part with Schenn if he is included in a package that returns a legitimate 1st/2nd line center who is not older than 28 y/o. Otherwise, I wouldn't move him.

I'd move Brown without a hesitation depending on who is coming back.

I wouldn't move Quick. I'd move Bernier upon protest but it'd have to be a very valuable player.

Ideally, I'd like to see the Kings move future picks which is why I'd be a big fan of a Versteeg type deal. Sure it isn't the big hoorah everyone seems to be anticipating in the next year or so. But it does give you some additional scoring and it doesn't cost you any assets you've spent time and money developing. I also wouldn't be against Simmonds or Brown going for the right player. What I really have a hard time with is people putting such a high value on our draft picks for this year. First off, from all accounts the draft isn't all that talent laden. Secondly, the org hasn't invested anything into those players (time or money). Lastly, those players, if the ever make the NHL, it won't be for another 3-4 years at the earliest.
Firstly, they say that about nearly every second darft and almost all drafts turn out very equal in terms of NHL players, with the very rare exception. In addition, even if the consensus is this draft is weak, what happens if the Kings scouts don't share that assessment? Maybe they feel there is some good pieces out there, and given their recent track record, can you argue with them?

Secondly, yes they have, just by the fact the Kings have sent scouts to already watch the players they would look at with those picks, especially the first rounders.

Lastly, how long did it take Simmonds, Clifford, Doughty etc to jump to the NHL? I know Doughty is an exception, but the other two were seconds and made the jump very quick.

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02-15-2011, 06:45 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
You don't know that. If you, or anyone else would have said Poni would have eight points in 36 games this year, not many would have bought into that, so to say with any certainty Vertseeg would have scored 20 goals in LA isn't accurate.

In addition, what makes Versteeg better than Ryan Smyth? or Marco Sturm? Or possibly Parse, who the Kings felt was a top two line winger coming out of camp? Smyth couldn't fit in with Kopitar well, and he has a heck of a lot more experience on the top line than Vertseeg, and Sturm and Parse are coming back so why not let them have a real chance to help out the top lines? I'd rather take a chance on those two guys then peddle out a 1st and 3rd for a guy who may not be any better.

For the record Parse had 11 goals in 59 games last year, while Versteeg as 14 in 53 this year, and was on pace for 66 points this year before getting hurt, while Sturm was scoring at a 20+ goal pace over a full season before getting hurt, and was doing so after coming back from a significant injury. Why would we not give these guys a chance before we trade two good assets for a guy with a career high of 22 goals?
Another thing to think about is Sturm, Poni, possibly Handzus and Williams could be gone next year. LA could make a play for someone who could help now and be around for next year as well. I do like the thought of Sturm and Parse coming in and making a difference but I'm doubtful. I think IF DL makes a move it will be for someone who might have more of an impact than a Versteeg or Sturm type of player. I think he has the assets to shop for a player but if its not there than we will indeed be hoping that Parse is back and in game shape by March, scary gamble tho.

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02-15-2011, 06:47 PM
  #142
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^ Well i guess Kopitar is just a pain in the ass to play with. Nobody seems to fit..

We're going in circles. I think I'm done with this. I concede. You guys are right, I'm wrong. Stay the course. God forbid they take a risk to improve the team.

I personally hope the GM has some testes and is prepared to take this team to the next level next season. I sure as hell hope we don't read things like "something will come up" or "the kids need to get better". I'm not advocating blowing the ship up or selling the farm or whatever other catchphrase you'd like, I just want the team to be better and I think hoarding your prospects/picks is a poor strategy. Again, I'm not saying get rid of them for the sake of making a move. I'm just saying we got plenty of assets to move that are replacable in the long term and the team needs help. Everyone knows that. There is no question this team needs help scoring and that ain't happening from within or UFA. Where does that leave us? Trades. The GM can either pony up or we'll be going into next season with largely the same roster quite possibly missing key vets with rookies as their replacement. That doesn't scream incremental improvement to me.

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02-15-2011, 06:54 PM
  #143
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[QUOTE=Buddy The Elf;30947666]
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Based on his 3 20 goal seasons. What have the Kings tried on the top line? Loktionov, Dwight King, Richardson, Ponikarovsky, Clifford... maybe you disagree but I think Versteeg is better than all those options. That is just my opinion. Apparently, I'm in the minority.
No, but you are in the minority of people who don't mention we have also tried Smyth, Simmonds, Williams and Brown on that top line, and none have performed well, as well as ignoring the fact two guys who actually didn't look to bad in Sturm and Parse got hurt and will be back in the next three weeks allegedly. I don't see Versteeg doing any better.

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02-15-2011, 06:56 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by DeeMeck View Post
I think you're being a little shortsighted. Toronto isn't going to be any good this year or next. They are maximizing their value for a guy who isn't going to be around when they are any good. They get 2 decent picks who WILL be around if they ever get it going.

All it has to do is getting value for a guy. Lombardi did it with Demitra and sent everyone into a hissy fit...it is a similar trade.
Versteeg is 24, how long is TO rebuilding that he won't be around? Demitra was 31 or 32.

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02-15-2011, 06:58 PM
  #145
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No, but you are in the minority of people who don't mention we have also tried Smyth, Simmonds, Williams and Brown on that top line, and none have performed well, as well as ignoring the fact two guys who actually didn't look to bad in Sturm and Parse got hurt and will be back in the next three weeks allegedly. I don't see Versteeg doing any better.
I'm not saying it was the perfect move. I just want to see the team make the playoffs and eventually win a Cup. I don't think Versteeg would have hurt from that goal and I don't think a 1st and 3rd rounder was an outrageous price or would have set the team back from that goal either. That is all I'm saying.

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02-15-2011, 06:59 PM
  #146
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I didn't forget anything. The comment I was responding to said that Versteeg type players are readily available. I don't think that is accurate. We could desperately use a 20 goal scorer for the top line LW.



And this is supposed to be a year where we improve on last year's performance. I don't care where the team finishes in the standings as long as they make the playoffs. Winning a round is an impovement.

We can be upset because the team dogged it in January when the season was on the line. Not making the playoffs would be a major disappointment for both fans and the team. I dont' see how anyone could see otherwise.

It would be a dissapointment. You asked how we'd feel if we missed the playoffs and I said it'd depend on what happens between now and then. January has happened and it's irrelavent to answering your question.

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02-15-2011, 06:59 PM
  #147
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Versteeg is 24, how long is TO rebuilding that he won't be around? Demitra was 31 or 32.
I figured the age thing would come into play.....I should have addressed it earlier.

Versteeg will still be a UFA before any of that happens, just like Demitra, regardless of age.

Toronto got 2 decent picks for a guy. Philly got a guy who will bump a lesser player off the depth chart, and he has excelled in the playoffs.

win-win

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02-15-2011, 06:59 PM
  #148
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You don't know that. If you, or anyone else would have said Poni would have eight points in 36 games this year, not many would have bought into that, so to say with any certainty Vertseeg would have scored 20 goals in LA isn't accurate.

In addition, what makes Versteeg better than Ryan Smyth? or Marco Sturm? Or possibly Parse, who the Kings felt was a top two line winger coming out of camp? Smyth couldn't fit in with Kopitar well, and he has a heck of a lot more experience on the top line than Vertseeg, and Sturm and Parse are coming back so why not let them have a real chance to help out the top lines? I'd rather take a chance on those two guys then peddle out a 1st and 3rd for a guy who may not be any better.

For the record Parse had 11 goals in 59 games last year, while Versteeg as 14 in 53 this year, and was on pace for 66 points this year before getting hurt, while Sturm was scoring at a 20+ goal pace over a full season before getting hurt, and was doing so after coming back from a significant injury. Why would we not give these guys a chance before we trade two good assets for a guy with a career high of 22 goals?
You can't seriously be bringing up point projections for guys who have played 15 and 5 games this season. Bottom line is Versteeg would have improved LA and all this talk about him being a 3rd liner in CHIC is like calling Jordan Staal a 3rd line center! You can argue his trade worth, but IMO he is an upgrade over LA's current LW's in terms of goal scoring and offensive play.

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02-15-2011, 07:00 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Versteeg is 24, how long is TO rebuilding that he won't be around? Demitra was 31 or 32.
Trying to understand what Brian Burke is thinking is a waste of time. I thought they were rebuilding while staying competitive? Does trading Versteeg for draft picks suggest that? I don't think even Brian Burke knows what he is trying to do.

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02-15-2011, 07:00 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wabwat View Post
Milan Hejduk?
CURRENT 50 goal scorer, or maybe we should ask about Mike Modano if he gets healthy before the trade deadline too?

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