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Seguin back to Junior?

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Old
02-15-2011, 11:45 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
He'd be sent to Plymouth... He's not eligible for the AHL.
I hope so just so I can catch a couple more games.

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Old
02-15-2011, 11:45 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by GDU View Post
are the people calling seguin a bust for real, wow there are some dumb people on this board... i guess stamkos is a bust too, cause his rookie year was about the same...
It really is nowhere near the same. Stamkos had more goals than Seguin will probably have points by March 1st.

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Old
02-15-2011, 11:47 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by GDU View Post
are the people calling seguin a bust for real, wow there are some dumb people on this board... i guess stamkos is a bust too, cause his rookie year was about the same...
stamkos had 23 goals and 23 assists his rookie year

seguin has 18 points

food for thought: seguin has 1 more goal than shawn thornton

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Old
02-15-2011, 11:48 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
There is a significant difference in the typical development curves of big forwards versus average-sized forwards. You also can't point to the extreme outlier and say "That's who Seguin is going to be" because, well, Thornton is the outlier.

Here are the top ten forwards who spent their 18-year-old season in the NHL and averaged 0.35 PPG or less (minimum 50 GP, 1990 on):

Tyler Seguin: 52 GP, 9-9-18
Patrik Stefan: 72 GP, 5-20-25
Vincent Lecavalier: 82 GP, 13-15-28
Ryan O'Reilly: 81 GP, 8-18-26
Dainius Zubrus: 68 GP, 8-13-21
Alexander Burmistrov: 57 GP, 5-12-17
Jiri Tlusty: 58 GP, 10-6-16
Petr Nedved: 61 GP, 10-16-16
Keith Primeau: 58 GP, 3-12-15
James Sheppard: 78 GP, 4-15-19

Again, assuming you understand bigger forwards tend to develop at a slower pace, you can exclude Lecavalier, Nedved and Primeau from the list. If you don't, there isn't much point in continuing to read this post.

...

At any rate, that's some dangerous company to be in at this point of Seguin's career I'd have to think Bruins management and fans were expecting a little more out of him than a player performing at the rate similar to that of several underwhelming draft picks; it was only a year ago many claimed him to be on the same level as or better than Hall.
Never understood this. For most of the season it was Hall and Fowler. As of right now Hall and Fowler had the biggest impact, besides Skinner.

Not trying to say that they made the wrong choice because if I was Boston I would of went for Seguin too, but Fowler is exacly what they needed. Plus he would of helped them more

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02-15-2011, 11:48 PM
  #55
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probably for the best

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Old
02-15-2011, 11:54 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Leafs87 View Post
Never understood this. For most of the season it was Hall and Fowler. As of right now Hall and Fowler had the biggest impact, besides Skinner.

Not trying to say that they made the wrong choice because if I was Boston I would of went for Seguin too, but Fowler is exacly what they needed. Plus he would of helped them more
We'll send you Erik Johnson for Seguin... He can come to STL and try to figure things out, and Boston can get a young stud PMD...

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Old
02-16-2011, 12:03 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
There is a significant difference in the typical development curves of big forwards versus average-sized forwards. You also can't point to the extreme outlier and say "That's who Seguin is going to be" because, well, Thornton is the outlier.

Here are the top ten forwards who spent their 18-year-old season in the NHL and averaged 0.35 PPG or less (minimum 50 GP, 1990 on):

Tyler Seguin: 52 GP, 9-9-18
Patrik Stefan: 72 GP, 5-20-25
Vincent Lecavalier: 82 GP, 13-15-28
Ryan O'Reilly: 81 GP, 8-18-26
Dainius Zubrus: 68 GP, 8-13-21
Alexander Burmistrov: 57 GP, 5-12-17
Jiri Tlusty: 58 GP, 10-6-16
Petr Nedved: 61 GP, 10-16-16
Keith Primeau: 58 GP, 3-12-15
James Sheppard: 78 GP, 4-15-19

Again, assuming you understand bigger forwards tend to develop at a slower pace, you can exclude Lecavalier, Nedved and Primeau from the list. If you don't, there isn't much point in continuing to read this post.

...

At any rate, that's some dangerous company to be in at this point of Seguin's career I'd have to think Bruins management and fans were expecting a little more out of him than a player performing at the rate similar to that of several underwhelming draft picks; it was only a year ago many claimed him to be on the same level as or better than Hall.

Size isn't the issue. It doesn't actually take that long for players to learn how to use their size at the NHL level. The thing that takes the longest is the ability to handle the puck. Joe Thornton, just like Seguin, is at his best when he is carrying (and eventually passing or shooting) the puck. It's tough to adjust to how long you have before you're going to be hit. Skinner and Hall both spend less time carrying the puck before shooting or creating scoring chances than what Seguin is used to. Just like Thornton, it will take time for him to adjust that part of his game. He has only barely underperformed from what I expected. Barely.

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Old
02-16-2011, 12:04 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnyweed View Post
stamkos had 23 goals and 23 assists his rookie year

seguin has 18 points

food for thought: seguin has 1 more goal than shawn thornton

At this point in the season, Stamkos had 7 goals.

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Old
02-16-2011, 12:12 AM
  #59
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don't want to be a dick but I really hope so
don't want to be an dick but you may have down syndrome

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02-16-2011, 12:14 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seguin2Couturier View Post
At this point in the season, Stamkos had 7 goals.
Stamkos looked way better when he was playing than Seguin does. Not gonna lie today I saw Seguin play for the first time for three full periods, I don't see the hype, at all actually. He looks like Tlusty and his stats don't say hes any better.

This is not because I am a leafs fan either, but you will try and swing it that way

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Old
02-16-2011, 12:26 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg View Post
There is a significant difference in the typical development curves of big forwards versus average-sized forwards. You also can't point to the extreme outlier and say "That's who Seguin is going to be" because, well, Thornton is the outlier.

Here are the top ten forwards who spent their 18-year-old season in the NHL and averaged 0.35 PPG or less (minimum 50 GP, 1990 on):

Tyler Seguin: 52 GP, 9-9-18
Patrik Stefan: 72 GP, 5-20-25
Vincent Lecavalier: 82 GP, 13-15-28
Ryan O'Reilly: 81 GP, 8-18-26
Dainius Zubrus: 68 GP, 8-13-21
Alexander Burmistrov: 57 GP, 5-12-17
Jiri Tlusty: 58 GP, 10-6-16
Petr Nedved: 61 GP, 10-16-16
Keith Primeau: 58 GP, 3-12-15
James Sheppard: 78 GP, 4-15-19

Again, assuming you understand bigger forwards tend to develop at a slower pace, you can exclude Lecavalier, Nedved and Primeau from the list. If you don't, there isn't much point in continuing to read this post.

...

At any rate, that's some dangerous company to be in at this point of Seguin's career I'd have to think Bruins management and fans were expecting a little more out of him than a player performing at the rate similar to that of several underwhelming draft picks; it was only a year ago many claimed him to be on the same level as or better than Hall.
The one thing I'll caution with the above stats is make sure you put them in the proper context. Namely, what kind of ice time have most of these rookies (not just listed, but rookies who performed in general) received in their first year?

Seguin's in the very odd situation where he just happened to be drafted by a deep team. Because of Toronto's folly, a team that wouldn't have been in a position to draft Seguin, was able to pick him 2nd overall. Consequently, unlike other high draft picks, the team that chose him didn't need him to log top six minutes as a rookie.

Adjustments to the NHL game aside, one of the key things that enables players to produce at an early age is playing time. Not just playing time, but playing time in important offensive situations. Most top picks go to teams with very little depth, and thus those top six minutes, as well as top unit PP minutes, are given to them, which in turn allows for an easier offensive transition to the next level.

If Seguin was playing 18 minutes a night, on a line with Boston's top two wingers, would his stats be as mediocre as they currently are? I'd go out on a limb and suggest that his numbers would be higher than what they are now.

That's not to suggest he'd be leading the NHL in rookie points, but that you have to also take into account not only the kind of ice time he gets, but which players he gets ice time with. It's an easier transition when you've got top line players passing and receiving passes from you, than it is if you're on a line primarily with two players who are career 3rd or 4th liners for a reason.

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02-16-2011, 12:40 AM
  #62
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Should have went with Skinner boys.
And I'm sure that with all of your vast hockey knowledge that you would have picked the 34th rated prospect over the # 1 rated prospect - right Einstein ????

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Old
02-16-2011, 12:43 AM
  #63
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joe thornton had 7 points his rookie year, must be a bust.

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02-16-2011, 12:43 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Seguin2Couturier View Post
At this point in the season, Stamkos had 7 goals.
and 15 assists

scored his first hat trick a year ago this thursday aswell, making that total 10

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02-16-2011, 12:48 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by SwedeSpeedBackstrom View Post
Biggest 2nd overall bust since JvR
Well he's no Greg Joly - that's for sure. But your team has had some great early picks - Nolan Baumgartner ( # 10 in 1994 ), Brad Church ( # 17 in 1995 ), Alexandre Volchkov ( # 4 in 1996 ), Kris Beech ( # 7 in 1999 ) and Sasha Pokulok ( # 14 in 2005 ). But I guess you're right - let's call him a bust after only 52 games.

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Old
02-16-2011, 01:06 AM
  #66
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I'm a Leaf fan so I have a bias to this situation... First, Chicheralli (sp) is a pretty smart GM and knows his game. Claude Julien is a great coach and proved it by winning the 2009 Jack Adams award.

But, the way they play against the Leafs shows that they like to rub it in the faces of Leafs fans everywhere. When playing Boston Seguin and Rask play a majority of the games.

Seguin shouldn't have stayed up in the big leagues and IMO was kept up in the attempts to prove that they won this trade hands down.... but I'm cynical and think that all other teams and fans are out to get us...

Were the Leafs, always your first favorite team or your last.

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02-16-2011, 01:15 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Rhody401 View Post
Just like in Joe Thornton's first season people were speculating him as a bust...

Look at joe now...

Troll attempt failed.
traded by Boston for a whole lotta nothing?

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02-16-2011, 01:20 AM
  #68
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traded by Boston for a whole lotta nothing?
I think everyone would be perfectly fine if Seguin turns out to be as productive as Jumbo Joe. He was traded more because of the team around him than because of anything he did. I know you were sarcastic, but just saying...

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02-16-2011, 01:21 AM
  #69
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Keeping Seguin down in juniors would not help in his development as much as playing in the NHL has done for him. Seguin didn't have much else to prove in the OHL.

Mark Recchi said it best about Seguin a few days ago.

Quote:
Mark Recchi has seen a lot of prodigies come and go over his 20-plus years in the NHL, ranging from Eric Lindros to Sidney Crosby, and hes worked side by side with many of them in their rookie forays into the league.

That gives him a unique ability to look at Seguins first season with more perspective than the average Bruin.

Recchi didnt deny Seguin was more of a raw project from a maturation perspective than Stamkos, Crosby, Eric Staal, Jordan Staal or any of the other young players hes helped shepherd along the way.

Absolutely. Maturity-wise, yeah," said Rechhi.

"But were watching him mature as he goes, and thats great. He wants to get better, and you see it. The worry would be if you didnt see that in his eyes. But I do. This is a process for him, and this is real learning year for him, said Recchi of Seguin, who has nine goals and nine assists this season and is pacing for close to 30 points. You can see it. You can see hes maturing as the year goes along. Hes a good kid that wants to get better. But hes also very raw, and hes got a lot to learn.

We know hes talented as hell and hes going to be a great player. His attitude has been great through all of this. Its not always easy going out, but you go and you work hard, get in the gym, and build up your strength. This is a building year for him toward bigger and better things.

Did everyone -- including expectant teammates, excited hockey executives and prone-to-hyperbole media -- perhaps underestimate just how raw Seguin was headed into this season?

I think so, said Recchi. I mean, hes really, really raw, but hes going to get polished. Hes working with the coaching staff and being around [Patrice Bergeron] and [David Krejci], watching how to play center, is going to help him for sure. Just by watching how they handle things and how they do things is a great thing for him. Bergie is very professional in how he prepares for games, and its really good for [Seguin] to see that. Bergie really isnt that much older than Seguin, so its really good.

Hes working at it and hes really getting there. Hes really starting to figure out what it means to be a pro and what it takes to be a good player

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Old
02-16-2011, 01:22 AM
  #70
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This is what happens when you try to develop an 18-year old high draft pick on a cup contending team. Was he rushed? no, there was nothing more he could learn playing in the OHL. The problem of course is -- a contending team simply is too talented to allow an 18-year old player to shine, and isn't prepared to live with 18 year old mistakes.

Are the Bruins disappointed with him? problably a little bit. Coming out of junior, expecting him to play sort of a hybrid #2/3 centre role where Bergeron's line played the traditional shutdown role, and Krejci was #1. Now, they had to pick up Kelly to play the 3rd line C role and try to rely on Bergeron for more of an offensive role. Then again, those may be unrealistic expectations for an 18 year old player.

That being said, his performance this year should make people realize that just because you're drafted high, doesn't mean you're an automatic for success at the NHL level. In most of his games, he has been relatively invisible / unspectacular. I also suspect that most teams would rather see a rookie forward (with big time offensive potential) dazzle on one play and then make a complete bonehead move on another play, as opposed to being invisible for the most part. The big question for him of course is -- is he capable of elevating his offensive game to the next level, or is he going to be another guy who dominated the junior scoring but just couldn't elevate his offensive game. Only time will tell.


As for what they do with him the rest of the year -- I can't imagine that they'd send him back to junior. It's just too much of a step back in his development. Keeping him around an NHL playoff environment (even if he's watching from the pressbox) is better for him than playing in the OHL.

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02-16-2011, 01:27 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Chungo View Post
When playing Boston Seguin and Rask play a majority of the games.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that Rask has a lifetime record of 5-1 with a GAA of 1.60 against Toronto ???? And just so you know - over the last 2 seasons Thomas and Rask have both started 5 games against Toronto.

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Originally Posted by Chungo View Post
Seguin shouldn't have stayed up in the big leagues and IMO was kept up in the attempts to prove that they won this trade hands down....
So I guess that Kessel was put on the 1st line and played on the Powerplay just to prove that Toronto won the trade ????

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.... but I'm cynical and think that all other teams and fans are out to get us...
Gee - I wonder if posts like this one have anything at all to do with that ????

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Old
02-16-2011, 02:56 AM
  #72
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So I guess that Kessel was put on the 1st line and played on the Powerplay just to prove that Toronto won the trade ????
King of a weird point of view on that one. What chungo was trying to say is he thinks (I don't agree with) Seguin would develop in the OHL better then in the NHL. How does kessel playing on the 1st line and powerplay make him develop compared to a rookie staying in the OHL..

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Old
02-16-2011, 03:07 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by MrForever View Post
Fowler should have gone #2 IMHO. Not even an attack on Seguin, just that Fowler has that much potential value
Not only potential but Boston needs. The type of D-Man that he his. When they drafted Seguin the B's already had Savard, Bergeron, Krejci, Colborne, + at Cente and were already looking for a PMD PP/QB

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Originally Posted by SwedeSpeedBackstrom View Post
Biggest 2nd overall bust since JvR
Yep, especially at 19 its all downhill from here

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02-16-2011, 03:14 AM
  #74
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Not only potential but Boston needs. The type of D-Man that he his. When they drafted Seguin the B's already had Savard, Bergeron, Krejci, Colborne, + at Cente and were already looking for a PMD PP/QB
I kind of feel like this is a great example of drafting BPA though... Savard may never be the same, and Colborne is being very underwhelming in the AHL -- sudenly they have only Bergeron and Krejci that are solid, with Bergeron being perfectly suited as a winger. Teams change so fast that drafting for need is a little crazy.

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Old
02-16-2011, 03:16 AM
  #75
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Seguin is in a stage of his development where he isn't ready for the NHL, but is definetly a big fish in a small pond in the OHL and cannot go to the AHL. He is in a great organization that has depth at Center.

Would you rather have a blue-chip prospect that is gaining confidence and leadership and maximizing in ice time in the OHL, while having the spare time to build muscle, speed, and agility. Not having to play 82 games in a season, that strains a 1st year body leading to sophmore slumps.

or would you rather have a 19 year old rookie in his first year with small ice time, he can't increase ice time because they are a competitive team trying to keep divisional lead and playing out of position on the wing.


If he was in Toronto, he might be in the line-up and get the ice time that is needed, but even then (not trying to compare) Kadri kept point pace in OHL with Seguin and Hall and still is where he shoudl be in the minors..

Take it from the Leafs, we know how to ruin careers by bringing in players to early.

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