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How would you feel if Brown was traded?

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Old
02-15-2011, 10:18 AM
  #51
bland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redcard View Post
I hate making this argument, as it usually holds little water, but it is very fitting in this case.

In 07-08 57 forwards outscored Brown, 18 of them RWs
In 08-09 81 forwards outscored Brown, 27 of them RWs
In 09-10 63 forwards outscored Brown, 15 of them RWs
This season, 57 forwards, 16 RWs.

Now this is where the argument loses weight, as its based on the assumption that with 30 teams, there are 90 first line forwards in the NHL....and a lot of people don't buy that (to extent, myself included). But what I can't comprehend is how anyone can legitimately claim that Brown is a 3rd liner, or a 2nd/3rd line tweener when he has consistently been in the top 30 in production for his position over the last 4 seasons, and the top 20 3 out of 4. These numbers claim he's a 1st liner, and I can live with people not buying that as even I don't put a tremendous amount of merit into these statistics. But at worst, Dustin Brown is one of the best 2nd line RWs in the league, the "3rd liner" garbage reflects the pessimism and scapegoatism (I know, just go with it) that is overly present with people wanting to express their dissatisfaction with the overall lack of success of this team over the last [however long each individual has been watching this team].

If the league has gotten so diluted that "third liners" like Brown are receiving first line minutes and producing better than 1/3 of the players receiving first line RW minutes, than we need to either drastically reduce the number of teams in the league or stop acting like there are 60-90 players out there somewhere who can do Brown's job better than him.
Numbers mean nothing. Watch the games, notice the turnovers, the flubbed passes, the poor forechecking, and the inconsistency of effort.

And, if you put most 3rd liners on the first line and gave them prime 1st unit PP numbers, you would see a whole lot of similar statistical results.

50-60 points per year is nothing to get excited about if you aren't smart enough to get the puck in deep when it calls for it.

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Old
02-15-2011, 12:59 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
Folks, Dustin Brown is just an average player, but a great man. Throw the mediocre stats out and look at what he brings on ice:

- average defensively
- well below average in the corners and along the boards
- flat our refuses to stand up for himself or his teammates
- goes into long stretches of limited production every year
- is a known diver
- has yet to show any kind of prolonged chemistry with a scoring or checking unit
- knows that he needs to play a simple, aggressive North/South game but only does so for about a 1/3 of the schedule

He's built to be a heart and soul player, but both his heart and soul are easily questioned. Some of you have built a nest out of your Brown love, and if you look at all of the individual strands, you'll realize that there just isn't much holding it together.

Please tell me why you like this guy so much that you are willing to overlook the constant turnovers and zone clearing PP passes to nobody that happen in every game. You ignore the way in which he wusses out of confrontations with smaller players because he has high, but typically useless hit totals?

All this guys bring on ice are mediocre stats - he does next to none of the little things that make the difference between winning and losing - how often do you see Brown try to force a play at the blueline and turn the puck over instead of getting it in deep? You could count the amount of loose pucks he has recovered all season on one hand.

If you gave Cal Clutterbuck the same minutes in important situations Brown gets, you would see the same production levels. He could be a very, very strong support player but he won't bear down enough to be counted on to do the right thing at the right time.

Now, he would most definitely be missed as a representative of our team - nobody could ever question his commitment to LA or the community, and we are lucky to have him around for that.

I doubt that Lombardi would move him just for that reason, but it might be the best thing to shake the feeling of passionless complacency that has been part of this team over the last 5 years.
Poster of the year material right here.

Bravo

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Old
02-15-2011, 03:10 PM
  #53
kingscourt26
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I'm with bland 100%

The guy has shown no heart on the ice lately, has become a 1-trick pony when carrying the puck into the zone and makes Kopitar a worse player. He seems afraid of confrontation and lacks the qualities of a captain (ie. is unable to change the flow of a game and doesn't stick up for himself or his team mates). He lacks the skill to be a top 6 and his only goal in the last 15 games was scored by a Calgary defenseman.

I don't necessarily blame Brown for this as a lot has to do with coaching and management but Brown is a solid 3rd liner at best. He was thrust into a role he can't grow into and the team is paying for it.

I would easily package him for a 30+ goal scorer. He would be a decent grinder on the 3rd line of a good team and his experience as captain might give some allure to his affordable contract.

I think he's a great guy just a poor hockey player.

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02-15-2011, 03:16 PM
  #54
redcard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
Numbers mean nothing. Watch the games, notice the turnovers, the flubbed passes, the poor forechecking, and the inconsistency of effort.

And, if you put most 3rd liners on the first line and gave them prime 1st unit PP numbers, you would see a whole lot of similar statistical results.

50-60 points per year is nothing to get excited about if you aren't smart enough to get the puck in deep when it calls for it.
Sorry, but I don't buy it. If third liners can produce 50-60 point seasons on the first line, than who the hell is playing first line RW on half the teams in the league? Because last year only 13 teams had RWs surpass that plateau. And if 17 teams had 3rd liners playing on their first lines.....they're not 3rd liners.

I don't believe there are 30 first line RWs in the league....because there are several players who are 2nd on their respective teams depth charts that have the potential to be first liners on several other teams...I get that. But what I can't comprehend is that there are 44 players in the league receiving top 6 RW minutes who fail to outproduce a 3rd liner receiving top 6 minutes.

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Old
02-15-2011, 03:16 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by PSP View Post
FWIW, "hits" is the most worthless stat that the NHL tracks

"Hits" are only important if they make a difference - rarely do Dustin Brown's hits count for anything on the standings
This.

His hits rarely separate the player from the puck and are often late leading to him coasting in on a late back check. Sure it's nice to physically break down the team throughout the game but that isn't the job of a top 6 unless scoring comes with it.

And to those praising Brown's scoring early in the season, the Kings needed goals the most in their last 25 or so games and Brown has been invisible. It's not just goals, it's quality goals he's lacking. Most average players can do well on the 1st line.

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Old
02-15-2011, 03:24 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
He's built to be a heart and soul player, but both his heart and soul are easily questioned. Some of you have built a nest out of your Brown love, and if you look at all of the individual strands, you'll realize that there just isn't much holding it together.
And some, like yourself, a nest out of your Brown hate.

Your opinion of Brown will never be taken seriously because because of your unending distaste for him. You've written more posts bashing Brown than any other topic by a long shot.


Last edited by TonySCV: 02-15-2011 at 03:36 PM.
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Old
02-15-2011, 03:35 PM
  #57
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All this hating on Brown.. it's just wrong and misguided.

I didn't see anything better from Hartnell for example on Saturday.
Watched a Wings game the other day, didn't see a "different level" of play from Cleary , Helm, or Draper. What the hell do you expect from a role player, a great role player, and team leader for us?

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Old
02-15-2011, 03:40 PM
  #58
alpa
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I don't want Brown traded. I want him to play to his strength which is his game and I want him to learn how to play in front and around the crease those areas are where he would fit best in my opinion. He has a lot to learn but I really believe he has the tools for it. Someone should teach him to keep his stick on the ice as well, lost count of his misses on open nets. As many have mentioned in other threads it is when Brown tries to play a finesse game it starts to go downhill.

I believe we have not seen Brown at his best yet.

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02-15-2011, 04:06 PM
  #59
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Happy.

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Old
02-15-2011, 04:08 PM
  #60
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I think the only way Brown gets traded is in a specific situation. Say for instance at the end of the season we fail to make the post season, and DL cleans house on the coaching staff, I could see Brown being moved at that point sending a message to the team to wake up, and it's not just the coaching staff that's failing, and start a fresh with a new captain. That being said, it would have to be for the right player in return, your not just going to give him away.

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02-15-2011, 04:42 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
And some, like yourself, a nest out of your Brown hate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bland
Folks, Dustin Brown is just an average player, but a great man.
That's some strong hate right there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
Your opinion of Brown will never be taken seriously because because of your unending distaste for him. You've written more posts bashing Brown than any other topic by a long shot.
Will never be taken seriously by whom? You?

The logic being "If someone feels strongly about a certain subject, and is never shy to reassert his consistent and unwavering opinion on that subject, that opinion can be discounted or disregarded due to the consistency of its reassertion?"

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Old
02-15-2011, 04:47 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goallum View Post
That's some strong hate right there.



Will never be taken seriously by whom? You?

The logic being "If someone feels strongly about a certain subject, and is never shy to reassert his consistent and unwavering opinion on that subject, that opinion can be discounted or disregarded due to the consistency of its reassertion?"
Well said

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Old
02-15-2011, 05:00 PM
  #63
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now where did i put that dancing elephant smiley???

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02-15-2011, 06:09 PM
  #64
SLang
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While I think no player can be made untouchable I feel like moving Brown would signal a change in direction for the organization, at a time when I've been feeilng they're generally going in the right direction. And if you're going in the right direction isn't any change a change for the worse?

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Old
02-15-2011, 07:26 PM
  #65
KINGS17
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I am going to take the middle ground here because there is a lot of truth on both sides.

Brown needs to forecheck smarter (not necessarily harder). When he does that he is a very dangerous player, because he does possess some speed and quickness and creates turnovers. We have all seen him do it, just not often enough.

When it comes to the he's a wuss, he's not a wuss argument: Any player earning a living playing in the NHL and playing the kind of game Brown does is not a wuss. However, he does need to be more involved in scrums in front of the other team's net. He needs to be shown video on an endless loop of how Perry behaves in front of the other team's goal whenever the whistle blows.

I don't need him to fight, I just need him to be a little more abrasive.

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Old
02-15-2011, 09:21 PM
  #66
bland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
And some, like yourself, a nest out of your Brown hate.

Your opinion of Brown will never be taken seriously because because of your unending distaste for him. You've written more posts bashing Brown than any other topic by a long shot.
No, Tony, the problem is that there is a whole lot of people who are willing to overlook reality in the face of fandom and want to see things that are not happening.

The more baseless, and usually classless, crap that I and posters that share my opinion have to take on behalf of the unwavering Brown supporters only reinforces and strengthens the opinion. The arguments get out of hand - it's not me or my opinion that get marginalized, its those wearing the emperors clothes that are starting to see what we have been talking about for going on 5 years now.

There is no exaggeration in my posts - every stinking thing I have said about Brown is 100% true and its built upon years of watching the guy play. I know my stuff, and I haven't picked on Dustin just for the hell of it - the guy has earned every last bit of criticism he has received. I ALWAYS point to examples and use recent evidence so my arguments can at least be debated on even ground.

And, I might add, there has been no one that has started more positive Brown threads on either of these boards over the years than I have because fairness and culpability are more important to me than sticking to my guns when they are clearly unarmed. It's important for me to know that other posters can see that I am not "hating" on anyone in this game - I will always call a spade a spade - it's a shame that some of you guys won't do the same.

I'm not a rah-rah "Believe" kind of guy - but I'm not going to say something bombastic just to get a rise out of people either. And yeah, I have had to spend a LOT of time defending and proving this opinion for years. Never once have I resorted to cheap imflammatory comments, and all my posts have been based on actual on-ice events.

Take it or leave it.

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Old
02-15-2011, 09:24 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
At least Brown is trying. He plays hard.
That is VERY debatable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bland View Post
If you gave Cal Clutterbuck the same minutes in important situations Brown gets, you would see the same production levels.
Clutterbuck is one goal behind Brown, in 2 less games, averaging nearly 4 minutes less a game.

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Originally Posted by wabwat View Post
now where did i put that dancing elephant smiley???
Brown flubbed it off the end of his stick and fell down as the opposition flung it down the ice.

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Old
02-15-2011, 09:26 PM
  #68
Live in the Now
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Brown does give effort and play hard. The harder he plays he usually plays worse and worse. Seems like that's what he's doing right now. Perhaps he is not mentally strong, which, of all things, is probably the biggest downfall of his game. I like Brown a lot but I'd never say he's mentally tough.

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02-15-2011, 09:44 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
Brown does give effort and play hard. The harder he plays he usually plays worse and worse. Seems like that's what he's doing right now. Perhaps he is not mentally strong, which, of all things, is probably the biggest downfall of his game. I like Brown a lot but I'd never say he's mentally tough.
So true. He just needs to keep it simple.

Maybe its really the C on the sweater. If he was stripped of the captaincy maybe he can play better like Marleau did.

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Old
02-16-2011, 06:25 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by bland View Post
Numbers mean nothing. Watch the games, notice the turnovers, the flubbed passes, the poor forechecking, and the inconsistency of effort.
... First off, goals and assists mean something. Second, nobody on the team gives consistent effort every single game - every player out there has had a game or a string of shifts where he wasn't doing what he is capable of. Third, Brown is one of the best forecheckers on the team, if not THE best. Say what you will about the "hits" statistic, but the fact of the matter is that if Brown was not physical, he wouldn't have a high total of hits.

He was playing out of place on the first line; that was obvious, wasn't it??? Just because the man has a C on his sweater doesn't mean he's automatically going to become an All-Star player in every facet of the game. He was put in a role that was too much for his talent to handle, but he handled it pretty well for quite a while. He still takes the body as often as anyone else on the team. He draws more penalties and gets more opponents off of their games than anyone else on the team. He has been this same player for a number of years now, except in recent years he's become more disciplined and taken fewer penalties, which has helped his team even more. His 5 on 5 numbers are very solid, when taking into account the level of opposition he's faced. He has his obvious flaws - but to constantly beat this tired drum of "the numbers don't matter because they don't agree with my opinion" and "watch the games" when there are plenty of people here who watch nearly every minute of every game, yet feel that Brown is still a valuable player despite this recent slump - at what point does the drum simply lose its sound?

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02-16-2011, 09:14 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... First off, goals and assists mean something. Second, nobody on the team gives consistent effort every single game - every player out there has had a game or a string of shifts where he wasn't doing what he is capable of. Third, Brown is one of the best forecheckers on the team, if not THE best. Say what you will about the "hits" statistic, but the fact of the matter is that if Brown was not physical, he wouldn't have a high total of hits.

He was playing out of place on the first line; that was obvious, wasn't it??? Just because the man has a C on his sweater doesn't mean he's automatically going to become an All-Star player in every facet of the game. He was put in a role that was too much for his talent to handle, but he handled it pretty well for quite a while. He still takes the body as often as anyone else on the team. He draws more penalties and gets more opponents off of their games than anyone else on the team. He has been this same player for a number of years now, except in recent years he's become more disciplined and taken fewer penalties, which has helped his team even more. His 5 on 5 numbers are very solid, when taking into account the level of opposition he's faced. He has his obvious flaws - but to constantly beat this tired drum of "the numbers don't matter because they don't agree with my opinion" and "watch the games" when there are plenty of people here who watch nearly every minute of every game, yet feel that Brown is still a valuable player despite this recent slump - at what point does the drum simply lose its sound?

That's easy JT, when he gets Hot again. Which he will, Everyone will move on to the next slumping Kings players; and just Bit$% and Moan about him.

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Old
02-16-2011, 10:56 AM
  #72
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I'd trade Dustin Brown without ANY hesitation.

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Old
02-16-2011, 11:04 AM
  #73
saintsnsoldiers
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Brown for Neal...

The hard part with Brown is that we have Clifford, Simmonds, Toffoli(sp) thats 4 good right wingers. Where do ya put Brown. Do ya move him for a good LW?

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Old
02-16-2011, 11:22 AM
  #74
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Brown's cap hit is 3.175. He gets a lot of slack from me for that reason alone. That said I don't think he should wear the "C" that was DL's bad. And i would also welcome back the Brown of his first two seasons, a bulked up freight train who runs everyone and everything.

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Old
02-16-2011, 11:27 AM
  #75
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I'd trade Brown+Teubert/Hickey+2nd for Benn/Neal

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