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Old
02-15-2011, 10:19 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
out of everything you mentioned, why do you have to take one of those things away? the game is fine the way it is. a cheap shot happens you deal with that person. a clean hit happens, then there is nothing to talk about. elimenating fighting doesnt elimenate cheap shots and one thing has nothing to do with the other.
I listed everything that makes up hockey basic essentials, and the fact that only fighting doesn't radically change the game if you took one of those out. Take out shooting and winning faceoffs? That's not hockey. Take away Fighting and that's not the hockey we've known, but its still hockey.

Cheap shots was my conversation with the other guy, not you. He questioned how cheap shots could be avoided/policed if there was no fighting.

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02-15-2011, 10:23 PM
  #77
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sorry i forgot that calling something a bozo nose isnt talking negativly about it
Its not me that see's it that way, its the places the NHL wants to take the game that view it in that light.

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02-15-2011, 10:25 PM
  #78
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the point is you say its an essential, which is it then you say take it out and its still hockey. the point is that you dont need to take it out and its not going anywhere as seen in the games this past week.

and unless you pmed the other guy you werent having a private conversation, so no you werent just talking to him your talking to everybody. and if you want to talk about cheap shots, i can too

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02-15-2011, 10:27 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Declan View Post
Do you honestly think people don't watch hockey because of fighting? Really?

I'd venture to guess that a hellofa lot more people watch hockey because of the fights than will ever stay away because of them
Sounds a lot like NHL '11

BUT, Yes I do think a majority of people, mostly mothers, shy away from hockey because of the fights and the violence. Mothers have a lot of say in what a child does. If the Dad is not a big time hockey fan, the kid is not introduced very much to the great sport.

Instead he watches Baseball, and Football.

Just like when a kid asks to play Football at a young age and is told it is too dangerous. In a mother's eyes it is not beneficial to have their children watch a sport that promotes fighting.

It may sound silly to us fans of the sport, but is is the truth.

What you said in Bold is not true for the majority of people, it is true for people that have hockey background, or have parents that brought them up with the sport.

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02-15-2011, 10:28 PM
  #80
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oh my god stop. you wrote it, then say its not how you feel. so now your talking about places that the nhl wants to bring their game to. didnt know i was speaking to their spokesperson.

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02-15-2011, 10:28 PM
  #81
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You know I'm happy and glad what happen friday night happened. That is OLD SCHOOL HOCKEY. Not this P!**y ***** we have to watch now. I'm 26 years old born in 84. Started watching hockey in 90-91 was a Ranger fan my whole life. Hockey was at its peak back in the late 80s- to the mid to late 90's. That's when hockey was hockey tough rugged men with no teeth brawling bleeding and not missing a shift for a high stick or a slash. Games like the old school Avs vs Redwings or Rangers Islanders. Hard nose tough games. Fighting is what makes hockey what it is. You take someone out you expect to drop the gloves or someone will take out your star player. This game they call hockey now is Basketball on skates. Its a joke what this league turned into. It isn't hockey they are trying to put more goals up to make it pretty. To get the attention of more fans. That's not what sells fighting brawls blood hard fought games sell. Not want to be Models missing a tooth or two that can skate. Bring me back to the days where if something happened tonight we would be talking about it day after day till we faced them again. if they stop fighting in hockey I for one won't be watching as much as I do. I'm more then sure there are a lot more people feeling the same way as I do.

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02-15-2011, 10:41 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
oh my god stop. you wrote it, then say its not how you feel. so now your talking about places that the nhl wants to bring their game to. didnt know i was speaking to their spokesperson.
Again, the people that don't pay attention to hockey see it as a goon league. Right or wrong, that's how so many potential paying customers see hockey because of the fighting and negative press every time some bonehead does something stupid on the ice.

If you think the NHL would not LOVE to have those fans you are just not paying attention

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02-15-2011, 10:50 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Again, the people that don't pay attention to hockey see it as a goon league. Right or wrong, that's how so many potential paying customers see hockey because of the fighting and negative press every time some bonehead does something stupid on the ice.

If you think the NHL would not LOVE to have those fans you are just not paying attention
what kind of negative press have the rangers received from all the fights prust has gotten in? fights dont generate negative press, stupid things do. too much is being said about hockey and negative press. in every other sport especially football and basketball there are guys bringing guns in the locker room, getting dui's, having sex parties on a boat and even jumping in the crowd and starting huge riots. and those sports dont lose any coverage or sponsers. do you really think hockey isnt mainstream because of fights or a bonehead does something stupid? its deeper than that.

and how could i forget steroids in baseball. there is an era where it seems everybody besides derek jeter cheated and their sport is doing just fine.


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Old
02-15-2011, 11:06 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
what kind of negative press have the rangers received from all the fights prust has gotten in? fights dont generate negative press, stupid things do. too much is being said about hockey and negative press. in every other sport especially football and basketball there are guys bringing guns in the locker room, getting dui's, having sex parties on a boat and even jumping in the crowd and starting huge riots. and those sports dont loose any coverage or sponsers. do you really think hockey isnt mainstream because of fights or a bonehead does something stupid? its deeper than that.
Hockey probably will never be mainstream, its not a major sport. The reason is Hockey ! Take away fighting and its probably less attractive to the casual observer.

But the league wants to grow. Well how do you grow when the people who's money you want think the league is a bunch of apes? Take out fighting? Then you lose that certain section of fans that only watch to see the fights and blood, like those charming people that watch Nascar for the crashes(though the crashes are not sanctioned and staged like the NHL).

All those other sports guys getting in trouble was about off field issues, not the same.

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02-15-2011, 11:15 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Hockey probably will never be mainstream, its not a major sport. The reason is Hockey ! Take away fighting and its probably less attractive to the casual observer.

But the league wants to grow. Well how do you grow when the people who's money you want think the league is a bunch of apes? Take out fighting? Then you lose that certain section of fans that only watch to see the fights and blood, like those charming people that watch Nascar for the crashes(though the crashes are not sanctioned and staged like the NHL).

All those other sports guys getting in trouble was about off field issues, not the same.
the basketball riot was during a game, the cheating in baseball happens on the field. all the hits to the head in football happen on the field. all these sports are fine.

hockey isnt where it should be because of 2 things, its totally different from every other sport. so different that many people arent interested and 2, the league is horribly managed. i highly doubt the league doesnt get the coverage it should because of the perception that its nothing but apes on the ice.

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02-16-2011, 04:22 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
anyone that thinks fighting should be outlawed is downright wrong. not my opinion, fact.

how many games have you seen turned around because somebody got into a fight and it sparked their team? if you dont like fighting, watch baseball.
Of course, I agree.

But, if you look into to it, it makes more sense.

You would never "outlaw" fighting. 9 out of 10 times when they show Baseball on the sport-show in Sweden, its fighting. I guess "fighting" is outlawed in Baseball?

My point is just -- you will never be able to outlaw fighting in hockey.

I do not think anyone would like to see a lifetime ban for everyone who drops their gloves.

But, how would the game be effected by like:
-5 min + game misconduct + 1 game automatic suspension for a fight?

Thats what the IIHF have. I still think we would see goons in the NHL. But just fewer fights when games are on the line. There are downsides though, like here in Sweden you often see someone baiting a better player on the other team to drop them. If a 3rd line wing can get a D on the other team to drop them -- its a big win of course. Stuff like that.

So I defintiely is not prepaired to say that I am in favor of making the above happened in teh NHL -- because I would be afraid that there could be other negative results. But to some extent I have to agree that the typical goon vs goon fight is pretty meaningless. The automatic "jump someone on the other team and hug some" if a clean big hit is made, is also pretty meaningless.

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02-16-2011, 08:29 AM
  #87
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There is nothing wrong with spontaneous fights. Those fights are organic to the game, as well as germane. But the vast majority of fighting in the NHL today are premeditated, staged, and completely irrelevant to the game itself.

And if you go to games and simply look at the crowd and see which fans respond the most to these circus brawls, it's beyond obvious what segment of the population they're meant to attract. This is true in Boston, this is true in Florida, this is true in Colorado, and this is true at Madison Square Garden, etc.

This idea that these staged brawls somehow add to the physicality of the sport is complete ********. But then again, no one is more "concerned" about the physicality of the sport to begin with than the very same segment of the population that is so adamant about making sure that, one way or another, they get to see people try and hurt one another when they watch a hockey game. What's particularly disturbing is that what none of them ever seem to care about is the quality of the hockey being played (and the quality of hockey being played at the Garden has been incredibly inferior for a number of years now), but I guess they'd have to actually care about that to notice, and I'm not so sure that they do.

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02-16-2011, 09:11 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
If fighting goes then the rules have to be altered and penalties strictly enforced.

IMO, old hockey will have its way until someone is paralyzed or killed, been saying that for a few years now. I've never seen so many on ice accidents and concussions in 30 years of playing/watching hockey.
And less than 1% of that has anything to do with fighting.

In fact, you can expect those issues to increase should fighting be taken out of the game as now bugs like Cooke and Ruutu can do pretty much what they want on the ice and not have to answer for it.

Staged fighting needs to go.

Heat of the battle fighting should never be taken out of the game. It's actually healthy as those fights are few and far between and more often than not do not lead to any additional rough stuff.

Those heat of the moment issues usually settle down games that are chippy, the bugs like Cooke and Ruutu usually escalate matters with their actions.

Fighting has it's place in the sport and will never be eliminated in our lifetime.

At least I pray it wont.

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02-16-2011, 09:32 AM
  #89
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In fact, you can expect those issues to increase should fighting be taken out of the game as now bugs like Cooke and Ruutu can do pretty much what they want on the ice and not have to answer for it.
This is a myth and is complete nonsense. Seriously, do you honestly think an NHL player is afraid of a fight? Most fights are laughable at best. A holding war where hardly any punches are thrown because both guys are holding each others jerseys. Rarely does anyone actually get hurt from the fight.

So why would such an occurrence deter any player from committing a cheap act? The only kind of fear a player would have is if something like a Steve Moore incident was common reaction for cheap shots. It's complete nonsense and my least favorite pro-fighting defense. Players care about being able to play and their paychecks. Teams care about money. If you impose steep fines and suspensions to players and steep fines for teams who allow such players to commit those actions, cheap shots would be reduced greatly.

The best and only logical pro-fighting stance is that it adds excitement, drama, and intensity to the game that can be felt all the way to the crowd. Which is why goon/staged fights suck and need to be eliminated. Spontaneous fighting is the only kind that has a place in the game if anything.

Personally, I'm a fan of the skating, the passing, the scoring, the hitting, defensive plays, the saves, and things of that nature. Fighting ranks pretty low on my list on things of excite me about hockey. In that respect I'm neither pro nor anti fighting.

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02-16-2011, 10:21 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by devito1192 View Post
the basketball riot was during a game, the cheating in baseball happens on the field. all the hits to the head in football happen on the field. all these sports are fine.

hockey isnt where it should be because of 2 things, its totally different from every other sport. so different that many people arent interested and 2, the league is horribly managed. i highly doubt the league doesnt get the coverage it should because of the perception that its nothing but apes on the ice.
I have always thought that the reason hockey isn't popular is because not many people have the chance to play the game because its too expensive. Pretty much everyone I know who has played hockey as well as other sports, chooses hockey.

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02-16-2011, 10:28 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Scooter17 View Post
I have always thought that the reason hockey isn't popular is because not many people have the chance to play the game because its too expensive. Pretty much everyone I know who has played hockey as well as other sports, chooses hockey.
regardless, its not because people think hockey players are a bunch of barbariens that go head hunting.

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02-16-2011, 10:31 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
Of course, I agree.

But, if you look into to it, it makes more sense.

You would never "outlaw" fighting. 9 out of 10 times when they show Baseball on the sport-show in Sweden, its fighting. I guess "fighting" is outlawed in Baseball?

My point is just -- you will never be able to outlaw fighting in hockey.

I do not think anyone would like to see a lifetime ban for everyone who drops their gloves.

But, how would the game be effected by like:
-5 min + game misconduct + 1 game automatic suspension for a fight?

Thats what the IIHF have. I still think we would see goons in the NHL. But just fewer fights when games are on the line. There are downsides though, like here in Sweden you often see someone baiting a better player on the other team to drop them. If a 3rd line wing can get a D on the other team to drop them -- its a big win of course. Stuff like that.

So I defintiely is not prepaired to say that I am in favor of making the above happened in teh NHL -- because I would be afraid that there could be other negative results. But to some extent I have to agree that the typical goon vs goon fight is pretty meaningless. The automatic "jump someone on the other team and hug some" if a clean big hit is made, is also pretty meaningless.
fighting is outlawed in baseball. you do it, you get thrown out and suspended. thats outlawed to me.

no it doesn't make more sense if you look at. period

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02-16-2011, 10:43 AM
  #93
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I have always thought that the reason hockey isn't popular is because not many people have the chance to play the game because its too expensive. Pretty much everyone I know who has played hockey as well as other sports, chooses hockey.
I agree with this. Its also not as easily accessible as other sports as far as venues go. Take Nassau County for instance. Every single elementary school, middle school, and high school has 3 things- a field (for football) a baseball diamond, and basketball hoops. How many hockey rinks are in Nassau? Like 7 roller hockey rinks and 4 or 5 ice complexes. Thats 12 venues compared to hundreds of basketball courts and baseball diamonds. You could easily bring a football or basketball to school for lunch break but you can't bring a hockey stick, skates, helmet, pads, etc.

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02-16-2011, 10:59 AM
  #94
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Should be no fighting... He's right.

Football is more physical than hockey and there's no fighting there. Hockey can get on without it. Cheap shots just need to be deal with severely. Just suspend and fine guys severely if they do it.

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02-16-2011, 11:25 AM
  #95
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It amazes me that people who know hockey and have been around hockey most of their lives, want fighting removed from the game. I don't like the senseless goon-on-goon fighting, but fighting is an important part of the game because it can regulate the number of cheap shots in the game. Not only that, many people watch hockey just to see the fights, much like people watch NASCAR to see the crashes.

Has there ever been a poll done for non-hockey fans that asks something like, "Would you be more likely to become a hockey fan if they removed fighting from the game?"

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02-16-2011, 11:46 AM
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I think getting rid of fighting will eliminate players such as Cooke, no?
it would increase the likelyhood that more Matt Cooke's play in the NHL, not less

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02-16-2011, 11:54 AM
  #97
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This is a myth and is complete nonsense. Seriously, do you honestly think an NHL player is afraid of a fight? Most fights are laughable at best. A holding war where hardly any punches are thrown because both guys are holding each others jerseys. Rarely does anyone actually get hurt from the fight.

So why would such an occurrence deter any player from committing a cheap act? The only kind of fear a player would have is if something like a Steve Moore incident was common reaction for cheap shots. It's complete nonsense and my least favorite pro-fighting defense. Players care about being able to play and their paychecks. Teams care about money. If you impose steep fines and suspensions to players and steep fines for teams who allow such players to commit those actions, cheap shots would be reduced greatly.

The best and only logical pro-fighting stance is that it adds excitement, drama, and intensity to the game that can be felt all the way to the crowd. Which is why goon/staged fights suck and need to be eliminated. Spontaneous fighting is the only kind that has a place in the game if anything.

Personally, I'm a fan of the skating, the passing, the scoring, the hitting, defensive plays, the saves, and things of that nature. Fighting ranks pretty low on my list on things of excite me about hockey. In that respect I'm neither pro nor anti fighting.
It's not a myth.

When the NHL implemented the instigator to most fighting majors a few years ago, the number of actual fights decreased, but the number of stick infractions increased.

There's a direct correlation to other penalties being committed when certain ones are being enforced more.

Take fighting out of the game and there would be more issues from guys like the ones mentioned, that is not an opinion.

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02-16-2011, 11:57 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by NYROrtsFan View Post
Should be no fighting... He's right.

Football is more physical than hockey and there's no fighting there. Hockey can get on without it. Cheap shots just need to be deal with severely. Just suspend and fine guys severely if they do it.
Give footbal players 5-6 foot long sticks and lets see how many fights break out.

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02-16-2011, 12:02 PM
  #99
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Besides the physical skills, hockey to me is about passion. I think if you take out fighting you take out some of the passion in the game. I agree, the fighting between goons, just to fight, is ridiculous. But I'll take a Dubi/Richards fight from two skilled, yet passionate players who won't back down from anyone, any day of the week.

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02-16-2011, 12:06 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
This is a myth and is complete nonsense. Seriously, do you honestly think an NHL player is afraid of a fight? Most fights are laughable at best. A holding war where hardly any punches are thrown because both guys are holding each others jerseys. Rarely does anyone actually get hurt from the fight.
I disagree with you that rarely does anyone get hurt from a fight. Prust has taken his lumps this year and missed shifts after fights. Girardi got hurt a few weeks ago in a fight and Boogaard got his brains scrambled earlier this year. Plus then there's all the countless bloody mouths, noses, black eyes, etc.

And there's a reason that fights are primarily holding wars...people don't enjoy getting punched squarely in the face! It's not even close to as laid back of an event as you seem to think it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiSnacks17 View Post
So why would such an occurrence deter any player from committing a cheap act? The only kind of fear a player would have is if something like a Steve Moore incident was common reaction for cheap shots. It's complete nonsense and my least favorite pro-fighting defense. Players care about being able to play and their paychecks. Teams care about money. If you impose steep fines and suspensions to players and steep fines for teams who allow such players to commit those actions, cheap shots would be reduced greatly.

The best and only logical pro-fighting stance is that it adds excitement, drama, and intensity to the game that can be felt all the way to the crowd. Which is why goon/staged fights suck and need to be eliminated. Spontaneous fighting is the only kind that has a place in the game if anything.
Your missing another logical pro-fighting stance...aggression needs an outlet. When you have a league full of speed and contact and cheap shot artists that don't answer the bell, you're going to fuel a lot of angry feelings. When that happens, fists get thrown. When that doesn't happen, you get McSorely tomahawking Brashear to the temple, Bertuzzi pile driving Moore, Domi suckering Ulf, etc.

I'm not saying it's right to try to hurt someone, but to ignore that part of human nature is wrong.

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