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Old
02-16-2011, 03:19 PM
  #51
Chainshot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Another stat to consider when looking at turnovers is takeaways.

Guess who still leads us in takeways even though he has missed 20 games?

Roy did have 25 turnovers in 35 games but he also had 37 takeways.


Last year he had 68 giveaways and 51 takeways.

By comparison Myers had 94 giveaways and 30 takeaways.
As an aside, Byron had the highest number of takeaways per game prior to the Montreal game. The kid just digs for pucks.

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Old
02-16-2011, 03:31 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
ideally, I want Roy on this team... I just want him in a completely different role. On the ice, I want him in the Drury role where he centers a "2nd" line, that really functions as a checking line. Put 2 banger/grinder/checker wingers with him... but guys who can skate and chip in offensively...

In a perfect world that will never happen...

Vanek-#1 Center-Pommer
Hecht 2006-Roy-Grier 2006
Ennis- #2 Young center- Stafford
Agreed 100%

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Old
02-16-2011, 04:25 PM
  #53
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Typical correlation vs. causation argument. I don't think Roy's absence is what has caused the team to play better nor do I think if he were still playing they would be any worse. Kaleta has been out for a significant portion of this period too, maybe they are winning because he is out of the lineup...

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Old
02-16-2011, 05:04 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Freezerburn View Post
Typical correlation vs. causation argument. I don't think Roy's absence is what has caused the team to play better nor do I think if he were still playing they would be any worse. Kaleta has been out for a significant portion of this period too, maybe they are winning because he is out of the lineup...
I don't think the sarcasm is needed, we certainly aren't missing much with Kaleta being out. He has been quite unimpressive this year, be it from injuries or being scared of re-injuries. Obviously to say a 4th liner being out is why we are winning is preposterous, but it hasn't hurt us in the slightest.

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02-16-2011, 05:11 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by BowieSabresFan View Post
Jame, you are certainly entitled to that opinion. Personally though, I find there are too many other possibilities to make it a viable one.

Heck, one could also credit the good play since Roy went down to Ruff's coaching talents
poking Jame where it hurts the most...

If it looks like Roy won't be able to come back, they need to figure out how to clone him so they get a Roy with an undamaged knee/quad/tendon.

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Old
02-16-2011, 05:44 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by thefifagod View Post
I don't think the sarcasm is needed, we certainly aren't missing much with Kaleta being out. He has been quite unimpressive this year, be it from injuries or being scared of re-injuries. Obviously to say a 4th liner being out is why we are winning is preposterous, but it hasn't hurt us in the slightest.
You missed the point but then kind of re-stated it yourself.

I'm saying that individual players being in or out of the lineup do not directly correlate to performance in the standings, there are so many variables.

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Old
02-16-2011, 06:12 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Freezerburn View Post
You missed the point but then kind of re-stated it yourself.

I'm saying that individual players being in or out of the lineup do not directly correlate to performance in the standings, there are so many variables.
I know what you mean, but missing a guy who played ES, PP, and PK, and getting lots of minutes on all of them, clearly makes an impact one way or the other. Maybe you're right that everyone is just stepping up, but I feel certain that the top lines are better off without him.

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02-16-2011, 07:49 PM
  #58
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If Connolly is agree to sign a 1 year under 3 millions, i will keep him another year just because next year there will be no improvment in center but Richards if he is still avalaible and with Roy status and in Portland, i don't see anyone ready to pick up the 2nd center spot.

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Old
02-17-2011, 01:23 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
ideally, I want Roy on this team... I just want him in a completely different role. On the ice, I want him in the Drury role where he centers a "2nd" line, that really functions as a checking line. Put 2 banger/grinder/checker wingers with him... but guys who can skate and chip in offensively...

In a perfect world that will never happen...

Vanek-#1 Center-Pommer
Hecht 2006-Roy-Grier 2006
Ennis- #2 Young center- Stafford
This makes sense because Roy 'freelancing' would be more by design. They could make that happen. Grier won't be the player on the wing but they can still fashion such a line next season.

Other than that I don't really wanna touch this post with a 10 foot pole. Roy's gonna be here, that much we know. I'd be fine trading him as part of a package for a legit #1 center. I'm sure anyone would. But I don't see what team would trade a legit #1 center for a likely similar-aged #2 center, albeit one on a great contract. So, unless other deals are made to bring in a #1 center and Roy is thus shipped out for other help, he's gonna be here. Keep him and Vanek separate, try him on the 2nd PP unit instead of the 1st, and I think we'll see good things. With or without Roy, center is a big question for next season with Tim gone. Will we end up with a lateral move (which from this season should be a cinch) or an actual improvement? And then, how is that going to effect the ability to find the most effective place for Roy? It's quite crucial to the forward progress of this team that one way or another they get a lot better overall play out of center.

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Old
02-17-2011, 07:38 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by zbubble View Post
Did you really just say my stats were meaningless because I have some bias, and then you go ahead and post more stats? I'm not sure you're doing yourself any favors here.
Actually I'm not only doing myself a favor, I'm doing one for you as well. What I've done is give context to Roy's turnover stats and a fuller picture. Which is why I said you were using that stat badly in your original post.

If you're going to argue the bad out weighs the good with Roy. Then refuse to look at the full picture (turnovers, his tunrovers in the context of other top offensive players, his takeways, production, etc) then you not trying to be fair and are biased.

I'm fairly confident you had no idea the players I listed had more turnovers or that Roy usually leads our team in takeaways.


Quote:
I don't have any personal bias against Roy. I just want to see smart hockey is all. When I was younger I used to be a big fan of Miro Satan. I thought it was a big mistake to get rid of a 40 goal scorer. I couldn't understand why people kept saying addition by subtraction, but I get it now.
Lets see if I have this straight. Roy out of the lineup is additon by subtraction but you don't have a bias against Roy.

Quote:
I really don't have any personal bias against Roy. Some games he helps us win. Some games he helps us lose. The point is, we've lost with him, and we've proven we can win without him. We've been doing it for a few months now. All it means is he's not irreplaceable and the team can have success without him.
All it means is many other players have stepped up their games while he was out.

Just like the Pens did when Crosby went down and the Ducks did when Getzlaf went down. But no one in their right mind would suggest those teams are better off or don't need those players.

Quote:
Someone also said this is nothing more than speculation, let's see the Sabres win a playoff round without Roy. Well, without Drury and Briere but with Roy we missed the playoffs twice in a row then lost in the first round last year. I'm waiting for someone to prove we can win a round with him. Sadly, the real players we couldn't live without are already gone.
That is absurd.


Why in the world would you single out Roy? We also missed the playoffs twice in a row and haven't won with Connolly, Vanek, Pommer, Miller, etc. How in the world does that fall on Roy?


Last edited by joshjull: 02-17-2011 at 07:50 PM.
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Old
02-17-2011, 08:16 PM
  #61
joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thefifagod View Post
I know what you mean, but missing a guy who played ES, PP, and PK, and getting lots of minutes on all of them, clearly makes an impact one way or the other. Maybe you're right that everyone is just stepping up, but I feel certain that the top lines are better off without him.
This drives me nuts.

If our top lines prior to Roy getting injured were this.....

Vanek/Roy/Pommer
Ennis/Connolly/Stafford

.....and if the only change was Roy going out of the lineup and Hecht taking his place. Then you might have an arguement. But thats not what the lines looked like prior to Roy's injury.

The lines when Roy was injured

Ennis/Roy/Vanek
Stafford/Hecht/Pommer
Gerbe/Goose/Kaleta
McCormick/Nieds/Grier

Connolly was out injured at the time.


- Another things that bugs me, Roy's injury is why Vanek's production took off

Vanek was scoreless in the first two games without Roy. But his production took off in the 3rd game. So what was different about the 3rd game. Connolly returned to the lineup and he along with Pommer were put with Vanek.

Pommer and Vanek clicked. They've have been linemates ever since with Hecht replacing Connolly not too long after that game. Vanek had been moved off Roy's line in the past with little success. But with Pommer, Vanek is having prolonged success without Roy for the first time. Yet thats rarely mention by posters hell bent on proving Roy is a hindrance to his linemates or teammates. Its all about Vanek being better off without Roy, as if nothing else changed for Vanek. Or that Vanek is doing it all by himself. It hasn't occured to them that Pommer clicking with him is a big reason for Vanek's success.

Pommer is a whipping boy for many of the same posters taking shots at Roy. So its not entirely shocking his contributions (21gms 7g 13a 20pts +6 while leading forwards in ice time and playing in all situations) during this run are being ignored.


Last edited by joshjull: 02-17-2011 at 08:53 PM.
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