HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk
Trade Rumors and Free Agent Talk Trade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.

Stl - Was

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-16-2011, 03:38 PM
  #26
BlueBeard
Registered User
 
BlueBeard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 2,760
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Yes, I have seen him play. And I really like him.

But the question is, have you watched Green play this year (while injured, no less)? Green has been excellent defensively all season long, even before the system change that Boudreau iniated in December. He's always been underrated defensively, this year he's really picked up his defensive play to a new level, though.



Mike Green:
EVGA/60: 2.04
SHGA/60: 4.30

Alex Pietrangelo:
EVGA/60: 2.50
SHGA/60: 6.11

Stats don't seem to reflect your statement. Green gives up almost half a goal less per 60minutes than Pietrangelo and does better relative to his teammates than Pietrangelo does. And Green has better PK numbers.
Now compare the PK SV% of the goalies between the two teams. You should notice an incredibly glaring difference right off the bat(Halak). Lets also not forget the caliber of forwards WSH has at ES. Do you think the puck possesion time would not heavily favor the forwards in front of Green? A higher percentage time of a shift spent in the offensive zone means less time for a goal scored against.

Even then we're talking about a player who is in his first full year of NHL action versus someone who has been in the NHL for quite a few seasons now. It's hardly homerism to say that Pietrangelo is much better defensively than Green was at a similar stage of their careers.

BlueBeard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 04:03 PM
  #27
doofydoofer08*
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 159
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
No thanks from the Blues.

Petro is already as good, if not better than Green defensively and I would wager that he ends up at the very least a 50 pt D man, with 60 likely. Oshie was poised for a breakout year this year, but is still projecting 50 pts in 82 games despite still recovering from a broken ankle, plus he bring so many intangibles.

Green would not score 70pts in STL. The surrounding offensive talent is nowhere close to what it is in WAS. Hell Petro would probably hit 45 pts if he were on WAS this season.
1. have you watched green this year?
2. based on what? he hasent shown anywhere near 60 point potential????
all your logic is based on you being a blues fan and everyting you said about petro is just way off

doofydoofer08* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 04:05 PM
  #28
Mystlyfe
We're Touched
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 11,999
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBeard View Post
Now compare the PK SV% of the goalies between the two teams. You should notice an incredibly glaring difference right off the bat(Halak). Lets also not forget the caliber of forwards WSH has at ES. Do you think the puck possesion time would not heavily favor the forwards in front of Green? A higher percentage time of a shift spent in the offensive zone means less time for a goal scored against.
What a conveniently timed article. Halak is exactly average (.876%) on the PK, though Varlamov (.900%) and Neuvirth (.890%) are both slightly better. Not enough to account for the difference though, as shown by the article. If Varlamov and Neuvirth had both played at Halak's level, they would have only surrendured between 5-6 (5.6) more goals on the PK, total, over the course of the season. Considering the Capitals have taken 676 PIM this season, thats just under 0.5 SHGA/60 minutes, which is far less than the nearly 2 goals/60 difference between their PK rates.

Green mostly plays with those excellent forwards in powerplay settings. His QualTeam at ES is -0.057 (Pietrangelo is -0.017).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBeard View Post
Even then we're talking about a player who is in his first full year of NHL action versus someone who has been in the NHL for quite a few seasons now. It's hardly homerism to say that Pietrangelo is much better defensively than Green was at a similar stage of their careers.
That's not what was said, though.

Mystlyfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 04:09 PM
  #29
tfriede2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 755
vCash: 500
Holy mary mother of God...that would be an awful trade for St. Louis.

I'm from St. Louis but have lived in D.C. for several years - so I'm a fan of both teams (St. Louis is my favorite, though). Honestly Caps fans, the Blues wouldn't deal Pietrangelo for Green, and yet this proposal also includes Oshie.

Yikes.

tfriede2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 04:16 PM
  #30
Oh Baby!
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: STL
Posts: 134
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Yes, I have seen him play. And I really like him.

But the question is, have you watched Green play this year (while injured, no less)? Green has been excellent defensively all season long, even before the system change that Boudreau iniated in December. He's always been underrated defensively, this year he's really picked up his defensive play to a new level, though.



Mike Green:
EVGA/60: 2.04
SHGA/60: 4.30

Alex Pietrangelo:
EVGA/60: 2.50
SHGA/60: 6.11

Stats don't seem to reflect your statement. Green gives up almost half a goal less per 60minutes than Pietrangelo and does better relative to his teammates than Pietrangelo does. And Green has better PK numbers.

Caps score more, get scored on less.


Last edited by Oh Baby!: 02-16-2011 at 04:17 PM. Reason: simplicity
Oh Baby! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 05:11 PM
  #31
HooliganX2
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,078
vCash: 772
Honestly regardless of stats anything like that. The Blues or their fans would not trade Pietrangelo strait up for Green adding Oshie makes it laughable from the Blues point of view.

It's not that Green is a bad player or horrible at defense. It's the the Blues and Blues fans have zero interest in trading Oshie or Pietrangelo.

HooliganX2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 06:05 PM
  #32
Mystlyfe
We're Touched
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 11,999
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oh Baby! View Post
Caps score more, get scored on less.
What does the Caps scoring have to do with Green's defensive numbers, especially on the PK? And the fact still remains that Green does better than his teammates in Washington by an even larger margin than Pietrangelo does better than his teammates in St. Louis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
Honestly regardless of stats anything like that. The Blues or their fans would not trade Pietrangelo strait up for Green adding Oshie makes it laughable from the Blues point of view.

It's not that Green is a bad player or horrible at defense. It's the the Blues and Blues fans have zero interest in trading Oshie or Pietrangelo.
Oh obviously. I'm not trying to convince them to trade either of them. I don't think move, regardless of value, is a good fit for the Capitals either. It's just not what the Caps need right now in order to move towards a Cup.
But I'm just attempting to debunk the claims that Pietrangelo is as good defensively as Green.

Mystlyfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 06:14 PM
  #33
Celtic Note
Moderator
Chi Town Bound
 
Celtic Note's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 8,576
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doofydoofer08 View Post
1. have you watched green this year?
2. based on what? he hasent shown anywhere near 60 point potential????
all your logic is based on you being a blues fan and everyting you said about petro is just way off
Have you watched Petro this year?

How hasn't he shown that potential?

Celtic Note is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 06:25 PM
  #34
Randall Ritchey
HockeyBuzz Blues
 
Randall Ritchey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: St. Louis
Country: United States
Posts: 10,696
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by doofydoofer08 View Post
1. have you watched green this year?

2. based on what? he hasent shown anywhere near 60 point potential????
all your logic is based on you being a blues fan and everyting you said about petro is just way off
1. I have, and while he's improved, he makes massive mistakes and mental errors, compared to Pietrangelo this season (who is in his first full season), have been worse. Pietrangelo is more physical than Green, has a more active stick and gets it into passing lanes quite well. He has been better defensively, and projects to be the better defensemen, DEFENSIVELY.

2. Based on the fact that the kid is in his rookie year, notching 27 point in 52 games.
If I was a naive fan, I'd say, oh Green has 24 points in 48 games, Pietrangelo is better offensively than Green. He isn't, but has the potential to hit 50 points regularly in his career and could have a few 60 point seasons.


Also, for the stat guy, Lets also consider that goals for to goals against ratio for the Captials is +10. For the Blues? -16.

Randall Ritchey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 06:30 PM
  #35
Blues0307
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: St. Louis
Country: United States
Posts: 816
vCash: 500
No interest in Mike Green, and you're basically taking the heart of our young nucleus. No thanks

Blues0307 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 06:38 PM
  #36
EastonBlues22
Global Moderator
 
EastonBlues22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,103
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
But I'm just attempting to debunk the claims that Pietrangelo is as good defensively as Green.
The problem is that you're attempting to do it using numbers that are inherently flawed. You might as well base an argument around the fact that Pietrangelo is +10 on a team that's collectively -8 in ES situations this year while Green is a +7 on a team that's collectively 0 in ES situations this year. Or around the fact that Pietrangelo has 28 takeaways and 24 giveaways while Green has 24 takeaways and 52 giveaways.

If you think Green has been better defensively this year than Pietrangelo, then I have no problem with that...it's certainly a reasonable opinion. If you think it's some immutable fact (based on those numbers, no less)...well, that I'm going to have to disagree with.

EastonBlues22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 07:37 PM
  #37
Mystlyfe
We're Touched
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 11,999
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
The problem is that you're attempting to do it using numbers that are inherently flawed. You might as well base an argument around the fact that Pietrangelo is +10 on a team that's collectively -8 in ES situations this year while Green is a +7 on a team that's collectively 0 in ES situations this year. Or around the fact that Pietrangelo has 28 takeaways and 24 giveaways while Green has 24 takeaways and 52 giveaways.

If you think Green has been better defensively this year than Pietrangelo, then I have no problem with that...it's certainly a reasonable opinion. If you think it's some immutable fact (based on those numbers, no less)...well, that I'm going to have to disagree with.
What's flawed about my numbers? +/- is a reflection of both offense and defense (and a great deal of luck), so that would be a flawed way to try and look at defense. Takeaways and giveaways only give a small portion of the defensive picture, especially given the roles the two defensemen play of their teams. And if we want to start incorporated peripheral stats, why stop at GvA and TkA? Why not look at hits and blocked shots (Green leads in both)?
You're using stats that either look at too big a picture, or not enough of a picture (or an entirely wrong picture). Mine reflect on the total defensive play of the two players and are given context by the performance of their teammates.

Mystlyfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 08:39 PM
  #38
EastonBlues22
Global Moderator
 
EastonBlues22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,103
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
What's flawed about my numbers? +/- is a reflection of both offense and defense (and a great deal of luck), so that would be a flawed way to try and look at defense. Takeaways and giveaways only give a small portion of the defensive picture, especially given the roles the two defensemen play of their teams. And if we want to start incorporated peripheral stats, why stop at GvA and TkA? Why not look at hits and blocked shots (Green leads in both)?

You're using stats that either look at too big a picture, or not enough of a picture (or an entirely wrong picture). Mine reflect on the total defensive play of the two players and are given context by the performance of their teammates.
You're misunderstanding me. I included those stats as examples because they were flawed...hence, the "you might as well."

Your numbers are drawn from data that reflect the relative success or failure of group efforts (i.e. scoring a goal, or preventing a goal), and they infer an individual's relative contribution toward those ends from that general data based simply on the rate that those group events happen while one specific player is on the ice. There's no actual analysis (whether objective or subjective) of an individual's actual quality of play.

There's a bunch of problems with that. For starters, a defensive player that plays on a team with a more talented set of forwards than average from top to bottom is going to have a systematic GF edge. In the same way, a defenseman that consistently plays with a better defensive partner and goaltender than average is going to have a systematic GA edge. The same goes for defensive assigments, etc. You might try and use QUAL stats to give "context" to those inferences, but that is flawed as well...QUAL stats might give an average, but they don't tell you anything about the QUAL conditions when the actual GFs or GAs are taking place. We just have to assume that things "even out"...and now we're making inferences about inferences. Goals for and goals against simply don't happen enough that we can assume the QUAL conditions are actually evening out to the point where they paint an accurate picture of the average conditions when GF and GA are scored.

Speaking of things "evening out"...a player's actual contributions to any one of those given GF or GA events could be anything from 0% to 100%, so there's one component that's obviously going to be affected a great deal by luck. What's more, a 0.5G/60min difference at this point in the season (53 games) represents 7 total goals at ES, and a 2G/60min difference represents approximately 2 total goals on the PK. Numbers of that magnitude are ripe for huge variance swings due to luck...to the point where they are absolutely meaningless.

EastonBlues22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 09:03 PM
  #39
WalterSobchak
Blues Trololol
 
WalterSobchak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Gutter Alley
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,743
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkearney913 View Post
Caps already have a TJ Oshie (Brooks Laich) with an all-around game and good character. They'd love to have Pietrangelo, his two-way game is starting to transition.

Pietrangelo, however, doesn't look moveable from the Blues' perspective. Brewer and Coliacovo look likely to be shipped out and there are starting to be doubts concerning Johnson (especially with his current injury history). They could, however, benefit greatly from having Green in the lineup, so maybe they'd think about it if it didn't cost them their top defensive prospect.
I like Laich but he is no Oshie.

Pietrangelo would be a Calder contender if he was eligible (and he should be)

WalterSobchak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2011, 09:05 PM
  #40
WalterSobchak
Blues Trololol
 
WalterSobchak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Gutter Alley
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,743
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tfriede2 View Post
Holy mary mother of God...that would be an awful trade for St. Louis.

I'm from St. Louis but have lived in D.C. for several years - so I'm a fan of both teams (St. Louis is my favorite, though). Honestly Caps fans, the Blues wouldn't deal Pietrangelo for Green, and yet this proposal also includes Oshie.

Yikes.
pretty much this. Green does what he does very well, Petro is more complete with his 2-way ability already and I'd bet he will be better all-around in the next 2 seasons.

WalterSobchak is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:52 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.