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Old
02-15-2011, 02:53 AM
  #51
Mogo
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How would Brad Richards alone makes us a playoff team? He ain't no Mario Lemieux all of the sudden. Who on earth would he pass the puck to who could finish?

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02-15-2011, 10:40 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Mogo View Post
How would Brad Richards alone makes us a playoff team? He ain't no Mario Lemieux all of the sudden. Who on earth would he pass the puck to who could finish?
He'd have to pass the puck off the boards....to himself.

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02-16-2011, 12:50 PM
  #53
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How would Brad Richards alone makes us a playoff team? He ain't no Mario Lemieux all of the sudden. Who on earth would he pass the puck to who could finish?
You've got Booth,Dadanov,and Santorelli that he could Pass it too. Also, you really think that because we don't have an Ovy type of winger, that we shouldn't improve our Top line Center? if The Panthers either traded or acquired Richards via FA, that you'd be upset and say "ahhh. We don't have anyone for him to pass it too, so Richards is useless"??

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02-16-2011, 01:27 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Pantherfan12 View Post
You've got Booth,Dadanov,and Santorelli that he could Pass it too. Also, you really think that because we don't have an Ovy type of winger, that we shouldn't improve our Top line Center? if The Panthers either traded or acquired Richards via FA, that you'd be upset and say "ahhh. We don't have anyone for him to pass it too, so Richards is useless"??
Ugh... Read.. I only questioned how bringing in Richards alone would make us a sure playoff team. It makes it sound like #1 center is our only hole.

Anyhows. Richards would never sign here so no worries there

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02-16-2011, 01:32 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Mogo View Post
Ugh... Read.. I only questioned how bringing in Richards alone would make us a sure playoff team. It makes it sound like #1 center is our only hole.
Anyhows. Richards would never sign here so no worries there
A #1 center fixes everything, to be fair.
I mean, aside from a #1 center, the only need would be to get some players who are more physical for the 4th/checking lines, maybe. But those guys are easier to find.

What other "holes" do we have?

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02-16-2011, 01:42 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
A #1 center fixes everything, to be fair.
I mean, aside from a #1 center, the only need would be to get some players who are more physical for the 4th/checking lines, maybe. But those guys are easier to find.

What other "holes" do we have?
Let's start with two other first line forwards (we have 0 on the current roster and maybe only 1 or 2 if we get lucky that project as a potential first liner). Also, a couple top pairing guys wouldn't hurt. Kuli will be good but a couple years out from being a true #1 pairing guy (which he will be IMO). On a good team he's probably a #3 or #4 right now as is but it's because he's so young. We have so many holes up front and all we do have are decent second liners and solid third liners.

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02-16-2011, 01:58 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by PanthersRule96 View Post
Let's start with two other first line forwards (we have 0 on the current roster and maybe only 1 or 2 if we get lucky that project as a potential first liner). Also, a couple top pairing guys wouldn't hurt. Kuli will be good but a couple years out from being a true #1 pairing guy (which he will be IMO). On a good team he's probably a #3 or #4 right now as is but it's because he's so young. We have so many holes up front and all we do have are decent second liners and solid third liners.
We have certain guys who would score more if we had an actual 1st line center. This would also move Weiss to the 2nd line which would be great.

Our D core is fine. Playoff caliber with the potential to really improve (Kulikov, Ellerby, Gudbranson).

The team isn't as horrendus as you're making it out to be; there's just no game-breaker. There's a reason why they're pretty much in every game, though.

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02-16-2011, 03:03 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
A #1 center fixes everything, to be fair.
I mean, aside from a #1 center, the only need would be to get some players who are more physical for the 4th/checking lines, maybe. But those guys are easier to find.

What other "holes" do we have?
Exactly... First-line center and some more size, sand-paper...

You have a top-9 with Richards, Booth, Weiss, Santorelli, Dadonov, Skille, Matthias, Higgins... Add another big body like Olesz but on a reasonable contract and then you take care of the 4th line...

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02-16-2011, 08:10 PM
  #59
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We have certain guys who would score more if we had an actual 1st line center. This would also move Weiss to the 2nd line which would be great.

Our D core is fine. Playoff caliber with the potential to really improve (Kulikov, Ellerby, Gudbranson).

The team isn't as horrendus as you're making it out to be; there's just no game-breaker. There's a reason why they're pretty much in every game, though.
Our D is nowhere near playoff caliber. How can you even throw the word "playoff" out there when referring to anything about our team other than Vokoun. It's an average NHL defense at absolute best, with everyone healthy, certainly not a playoff caliber defense. Ellerby, as good as he looks compared to our expectations, is not a dman who would crack a playoff caliber team's top 6 unless he was the 6th or 7th guy. Garrison would be a 7th guy on most good defenses. Weaver is a #5 or 6 at best on a good team. The only way they're playoff caliber is if you throw them behind Philly or Tampas offense. Ellerby turns it over a lot still even though he's progressing nicely and I like him a lot. Kulikov is also young and has potential but he'd be a #4 guy on a good defense. This team is not good. Santo is scoring in his role because he's being given the opportunity that other teams wouldn't give him because they have better top 6 forwards. On a good team, Santorelli's a 3rd liner. He makes some nice plays offensively but he's not strong on his feet or on the puck, at least yet. If he improves that over the next couple years, then he'll establish himself as a top 6 guy.

Weiss is a 2nd line center and is being forced to play over his head at the #1 center spot. Booth is an average second liner or solid 3rd liner these days on a good team. Even when he was hot I saw him as a great second liner and a fill-in first liner guy because he doesn't have the finish that first liners typically have, especially for as much as he shoots and for as little as he makes plays for other people.

We're fooling ourselves if we think we're good. Half the games we win, we get because the other team sleeps on us and we surprise them and outwork them and get luck as heck on bounces. The one thing we do have this year is a harder working team so theyre not getting embarrassed often. That should be the way it is even for the worst teams in the NHL. It's just that we're used to putrid in FLA so this is a nice change compared to the norm. We're still markedly flawed though and only Kulikov, Gudbranson, and Markstrom are keepers for the org IMO. You could put Ellerby in there too maybe but there is not one guy on the forward roster that I'd cry over trading. Santorelli is the one guy I'd be pretty upset to see go at this point. I've been a diehard fan forever but there are no more rose-colored glasses over my eyes.

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02-16-2011, 08:38 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by PanthersRule96 View Post
Our D is nowhere near playoff caliber. How can you even throw the word "playoff" out there when referring to anything about our team other than Vokoun. It's an average NHL defense at absolute best, with everyone healthy, certainly not a playoff caliber defense. Ellerby, as good as he looks compared to our expectations, is not a dman who would crack a playoff caliber team's top 6 unless he was the 6th or 7th guy. Garrison would be a 7th guy on most good defenses. Weaver is a #5 or 6 at best on a good team. The only way they're playoff caliber is if you throw them behind Philly or Tampas offense. Ellerby turns it over a lot still even though he's progressing nicely and I like him a lot. Kulikov is also young and has potential but he'd be a #4 guy on a good defense. This team is not good. Santo is scoring in his role because he's being given the opportunity that other teams wouldn't give him because they have better top 6 forwards. On a good team, Santorelli's a 3rd liner. He makes some nice plays offensively but he's not strong on his feet or on the puck, at least yet. If he improves that over the next couple years, then he'll establish himself as a top 6 guy.

Weiss is a 2nd line center and is being forced to play over his head at the #1 center spot. Booth is an average second liner or solid 3rd liner these days on a good team. Even when he was hot I saw him as a great second liner and a fill-in first liner guy because he doesn't have the finish that first liners typically have, especially for as much as he shoots and for as little as he makes plays for other people.

We're fooling ourselves if we think we're good. Half the games we win, we get because the other team sleeps on us and we surprise them and outwork them and get luck as heck on bounces. The one thing we do have this year is a harder working team so theyre not getting embarrassed often. That should be the way it is even for the worst teams in the NHL. It's just that we're used to putrid in FLA so this is a nice change compared to the norm. We're still markedly flawed though and only Kulikov, Gudbranson, and Markstrom are keepers for the org IMO. You could put Ellerby in there too maybe but there is not one guy on the forward roster that I'd cry over trading. Santorelli is the one guy I'd be pretty upset to see go at this point. I've been a diehard fan forever but there are no more rose-colored glasses over my eyes.
McCabe and Kulikov are hurt.
When everyone's healthy, our D core isn't that bad.

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02-16-2011, 09:07 PM
  #61
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Ellerby and Garrison are not low guys on other teams, that's ridiculous. Both guys have played very well against the top lines in the League. Our defense is very solid, can still use tweaking, but they've done well.

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02-16-2011, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Ellerby and Garrison are not low guys on other teams, that's ridiculous. Both guys have played very well against the top lines in the League. Our defense is very solid, can still use tweaking, but they've done well.
They've done well compared to expectations aka they've exceeded what we expected from them. Plus they're nowhere near as awful as our horrid offense so they look great compared to that. Ellerby probably wouldn't even have been promoted if he had been on 20 other teams in the NHL but fortunately for us, he got up with the big club and has earned a spot for now.

They are low guys on other teams. Garrison is not that good. He's scored a couple clutch goals and he's been decent against other teams top lines, but we play a more defensive style anyway and if he hasn't been exposed as much, it's because he's been getting help from his goalie and from the forwards. His max potential in his career IMO is a really good #5 guy or so. Nothing wrong with that. He's tough and can put up points here and there and is hard to play against but he just isn't that fast or that talented compared to top 4 NHL dmen. Only Wideman and perhaps Kuli would be able to crack the top 4 of the average NHL team's defense. Ellerby perhaps down the road but don't confused promise with current readiness. McCabe just isn't very good anymore. He's tough and puts up some points but defensively, he's slower and makes dumb plays.

Allen is pretty bad. Sucks to see what the knee injuries have done to him. Honestly, I'm just being realistic. Weaver is good for waht he is, but that's a #5 dman, PK specialist. There's a role for that guy on every team in the league but let's not confuse it and call him a #1 or #2 or even top 4 guy.

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02-16-2011, 09:53 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by PanthersRule96 View Post
They've done well compared to expectations aka they've exceeded what we expected from them. Plus they're nowhere near as awful as our horrid offense so they look great compared to that. Ellerby probably wouldn't even have been promoted if he had been on 20 other teams in the NHL but fortunately for us, he got up with the big club and has earned a spot for now.

They are low guys on other teams. Garrison is not that good. He's scored a couple clutch goals and he's been decent against other teams top lines, but we play a more defensive style anyway and if he hasn't been exposed as much, it's because he's been getting help from his goalie and from the forwards. His max potential in his career IMO is a really good #5 guy or so. Nothing wrong with that. He's tough and can put up points here and there and is hard to play against but he just isn't that fast or that talented compared to top 4 NHL dmen. Only Wideman and perhaps Kuli would be able to crack the top 4 of the average NHL team's defense. Ellerby perhaps down the road but don't confused promise with current readiness. McCabe just isn't very good anymore. He's tough and puts up some points but defensively, he's slower and makes dumb plays.

Allen is pretty bad. Sucks to see what the knee injuries have done to him. Honestly, I'm just being realistic. Weaver is good for waht he is, but that's a #5 dman, PK specialist. There's a role for that guy on every team in the league but let's not confuse it and call him a #1 or #2 or even top 4 guy.
I agree with this, but those are our lower-tier defensemen. Kulikov, McCabe, and Wideman are top 4 D men on just about every team in the NHL.

At the end of the day, what's hurting the team is the mediocre offense (forwards).

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02-17-2011, 12:28 AM
  #64
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I agree with this, but those are our lower-tier defensemen. Kulikov, McCabe, and Wideman are top 4 D men on just about every team in the NHL.

At the end of the day, what's hurting the team is the mediocre offense (forwards).
I agree and our offensive problems need to be fixed, but before we become a contending team, this defense needs to be fixed as well. McCabe is no longer a top 4 Dman to me IMO. If any of you feel he is then that's your opinion but to me he gives it away too often, makes stupid plays, and is way too predictable with the puck. Wideman is a similar player to McCabe and keeping just one of those two (Wideman) would actually probably improve our defense since they play a similar style and are both prone to DUMB decisions.

The offense is going to take a while to rebuild and I think it looks worse than I originally thought. No longer are Weiss and Booth core guys to me. Their luster has dimmed a little bit. Frolik was a core guy with those two at the start of the year but now he's off in Chicago. At this point on offense, only Santorelli, Matthias, Dadonov, and perhaps Skille have a shot at being here 2+ years into the future IMO. Maybe I'm forgetting someone. I'd like to see Repik given a true shot post-deadline to see what he is once and for all. Regardless, None of Santo, Matthias, Dads, or Skille are potential first liners. If everything goes perfectly, Santo will turn into a solid 2nd liner, Dadonov as well, Matthias will develop into a good #2/3 center, and Skille will be a good top 6 winger who can crash and has a good shot. Those aren't guys to build around, rather those are the David Bollands, the Tomas Kopeckys, the Versteegs, Ladds, or w/e as opposed to the Toews, Kanes, Sharps, etc. On defense we look a bit better but I'm worried about up front. I don't see Howden having 1st line NHL potential (more like 2/3) but I do think Bjugstad is a potential #1 if the stars align. Regardless, Shore, Knight, Bjugs, etc. don't project as first liners at the NHL level. You never know but we badly need at least 2 #1 level prospects on offense to turn things around. Couturier/RNH plus Yakupov or whoever in 2012 could help get us where we need to go and only tanking will get us there.

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02-17-2011, 12:59 AM
  #65
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I agree and our offensive problems need to be fixed, but before we become a contending team, this defense needs to be fixed as well. McCabe is no longer a top 4 Dman to me IMO. If any of you feel he is then that's your opinion but to me he gives it away too often, makes stupid plays, and is way too predictable with the puck. Wideman is a similar player to McCabe and keeping just one of those two (Wideman) would actually probably improve our defense since they play a similar style and are both prone to DUMB decisions.

The offense is going to take a while to rebuild and I think it looks worse than I originally thought. No longer are Weiss and Booth core guys to me. Their luster has dimmed a little bit. Frolik was a core guy with those two at the start of the year but now he's off in Chicago. At this point on offense, only Santorelli, Matthias, Dadonov, and perhaps Skille have a shot at being here 2+ years into the future IMO. Maybe I'm forgetting someone. I'd like to see Repik given a true shot post-deadline to see what he is once and for all. Regardless, None of Santo, Matthias, Dads, or Skille are potential first liners. If everything goes perfectly, Santo will turn into a solid 2nd liner, Dadonov as well, Matthias will develop into a good #2/3 center, and Skille will be a good top 6 winger who can crash and has a good shot. Those aren't guys to build around, rather those are the David Bollands, the Tomas Kopeckys, the Versteegs, Ladds, or w/e as opposed to the Toews, Kanes, Sharps, etc. On defense we look a bit better but I'm worried about up front. I don't see Howden having 1st line NHL potential (more like 2/3) but I do think Bjugstad is a potential #1 if the stars align. Regardless, Shore, Knight, Bjugs, etc. don't project as first liners at the NHL level. You never know but we badly need at least 2 #1 level prospects on offense to turn things around. Couturier/RNH plus Yakupov or whoever in 2012 could help get us where we need to go and only tanking will get us there.
Yeah, the #1 line players are going to be gotten in the draft (hopefully).

Also, regarding the role player forwards you mentioned, maybe a body or two can be added in the next two weeks. Not everyone who's going to be traded is going to bring back draft picks. Frolik brought back a Skille, so maybe some of the guys will go for younger roster players who are NHL-ready.

And I think one or two of these guys of the UFA's might end up staying. I'm not sure if I agree with it, but I could see a guy like Higgins staying with the team. Tallon brought him in here, and he's been a nice fit playing in all situations. They need to keep a veteran or two; even young rebuilding teams need some veterans.

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