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And the drama continues...Enroth back to Portland

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Old
02-16-2011, 09:58 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Why didn't they do this before? Because Jhonas has actually been pretty poor for the Pirates this season. He's taken a step back. His SV% has hovered around .907-.910 over the last two months. He's been outplayed by his backup (Leggio). This has been the worst of his three AHL seasons. They were expecting he'd be one of the top goaltenders in the AHL. Instead, he's been eminently average.

Put simply, he hadn't earned the opportunity and, given his poor play, the Sabres probably didn't want to bring him up while he was off his game.
So because you choose to have your real backup in Portland, and because he isn't doing the best you decide to not call him up at all and run your starter into the ground?

Makes sense.

If they really thought that Enroth wasn't deserving of a start then they should have waived Lalime and looked for a suitable backup. I will take it to my grave that the way Lindy and Darcy communicate over backup goaltenders is a top 3 problem with this team. Year in and year out they think they get a capable backup, Lindy doesn't use him and then his numbers look like a sack of trash.

Running your starter into the ground because you don't trust your #1 backup and your #1 prospect isn't lighting it up should NEVER be an option. 31 straight starts is asinine.

We all should send thank you notes to Vogl for finally getting Miller a game off. Without a loss there and an argument in the locker room, Ryan probably would have started last night and tonight too.


Last edited by S319R11S16: 02-16-2011 at 10:06 AM.
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02-16-2011, 10:19 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by MillerFan1 View Post
So because you choose to have your real backup in Portland, and because he isn't doing the best you decide to not call him up at all and run your starter into the ground?

Makes sense.
Nice strawman. I never said that. You asked why they didn't do this earlier. I told you. You didn't like the answer, so now you're trying to put words in my mouth that fit your argument.

It's clear Lindy didn't think he was running Miller into the ground. I was growing concerned about Miller's consecutive games streak after the Colorado game. After that, though, he, for the most part, played very well heading into the all-star break. Lindy clearly thought the ten days off would refresh him physically and mentally, and probably worried less about the consecutive starts streak because he just had ten days off--something that's pretty rare in the midst of a streak that long.

You can disagree with Ruff if you want to. But that was his logic.

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If they really thought that Enroth wasn't deserving of a start then they should have waived Lalime and looked for a suitable backup.
I don't disagree. But that's not what you said. You asked why they didn't employ this strategy earlier. And I told you: because (1) he hadn't been very good in Portland; (2) Miller started playing better after the Colorado game; and (3) Lindy probably thought the 10 days off would be of great benefit for Miller.

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We all should send thank you notes to Vogl for finally getting Miller a game off. Without a loss there and an argument in the locker room, Ryan probably would have started last night and tonight too.
Right, the media deserves the credit. But for Miller's outburst with Vogl, Miller would've started last night? Come on, be realistic. Ruff said he contemplated pulling Miller in the Isles game. If you don't think Lindy would've made that decision independently after Miller's performance against the Isles, you're wrong.

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02-16-2011, 10:22 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by HogtownSabresfan View Post
Yeah, that's point of message boards and talk radio. No?
Not after 20 messages, then its just increasing the inventory of beaten, dead horses while simultaneously wasting bandwidth.

*bonk*

Ta,

<-- took the bait.

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02-16-2011, 10:23 AM
  #29
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he played one game against one of the better goalies in the league, got us a point and we send him down.

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02-16-2011, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by ImpressedDAHagent View Post
he played one game against one of the better goalies in the league, got us a point and we send him down.
Right. We sent him down to keep him sharp and keep him playing, rather than have him collecting cobwebs on the bench behind Miller. When it's time for Miller to have his next rest, Enroth will be called up and given the start. And he'll be sharper because he'll have been playing in real games down in Portland.

It's the right decision.

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02-16-2011, 10:27 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Right. We sent him down to keep him sharp and keep him playing, rather than have him collecting cobwebs on the bench behind Miller. When it's time for Miller to have his next rest, Enroth will be called up and given the start. And he'll be sharper because he'll be playing in real games down in Portland.

It's the right decision.
good point.

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02-16-2011, 11:19 AM
  #32
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I'm more of a comedy fan myself, no so much a fan of the drama.

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02-16-2011, 12:58 PM
  #33
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I would've been worried if we didn't send Enroth back down. To me, that would've meant Miller's issues were more than mental.

Miller owns the Leafs, and we're playing them on the second half of a back-to-back where Miller sat out the first game. If he didn't come back to play against the Leafs, no matter how good Enroth was, I would've been very worried about whether or not he was healthy.

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02-16-2011, 01:11 PM
  #34
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Around December or so, Lindy started to open up the offense. Probably because he realized that the Sabres just aren't good enough on defense to win games 1-0.

Opening up the offense ultimately gives more chances to your opponent as well. Even with the extra chances, Miller can still make most of the stops... sure, it hurts his stats, but it also gives the Sabres the best chance to win night in, night out.

If Patty is the starter, and you're going to leave him hanging out to dry... Good luck. Your offense better score 11 goals, because Lalime is going to give up 10. At that point, Lalime's butt got permanently glued to the bench.

Credit to Pat though. He always has a smile on his face and never appears to cause ripples in the locker room. Tough situation, but he handles it like a pro.

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02-16-2011, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Why didn't they do this before? Because Jhonas has actually been pretty poor for the Pirates this season. He's taken a step back. His SV% has hovered around .907-.910 over the last two months. He's been outplayed by his backup (Leggio). This has been the worst of his three AHL seasons. They were expecting he'd be one of the top goaltenders in the AHL. Instead, he's been eminently average.

Put simply, he hadn't earned the opportunity and, given his poor play, the Sabres probably didn't want to bring him up while he was off his game.
Call it a hunch, but I gotta feeling that Enroth will raise his game when he's in the big leagues for good.

If you like, a reversal of what guys like Noronen and Biron did, tore up the minors but never really settled in the NHL (well, Biron did, up to a point, but he was projected as Hasek's heir for a time).

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02-16-2011, 04:45 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MillerFan1 View Post
The drama that he belongs here backing up Miller and Lalime should be waived.
I don't think the Sabres can waive Lalime. They either have to keep him, trade him, or buy him out at the end of the season. They can send him to the AHL. Here's the kicker, though. I THINK that even if he is sent to the minors, his salary will count against the Sabres salary cap, because he was 35 or older when he signed this contract. If he was younger than 35, and he got sent to the minors, his salary wouldn't count against the cap. That's how teams like the Bruins, Devils, and Rangers circumvent the salary cap.

I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that's how is works.

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02-16-2011, 05:17 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by MillerFan1 View Post
Running your starter into the ground because you don't trust your #1 backup and your #1 prospect isn't lighting it up should NEVER be an option. 31 straight starts is asinine.

We all should send thank you notes to Vogl for finally getting Miller a game off. Without a loss there and an argument in the locker room, Ryan probably would have started last night and tonight too.
I didn't think he was run into the ground either. My God he just had 10 days off, played 2 games and all of a sudden he's shot. How is it that he couldn't recoup after 10 days? There were also a decent amount of days off between those 31 games. It's not like they were 15 back to backs. I think way to much is being made over this. Maybe he just had a stinker, nothing more, nothing less, and because of it everything the coach and organization has done is being microanalyzed when it doesn't need to be.

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02-16-2011, 06:24 PM
  #38
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It would be foolish to waive anyone considering the 23 man roster limit expires in 12 days.

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02-16-2011, 06:47 PM
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Really, honestly, I think Enroth is a winner and he needs his starts in the 'A' the whole season thru. He'll get his calls up and then the playoffs. Lalime won't get waived. Popular guy, knows his role, and an experience goaltender. Is he a starter? No. But having Enroth here to sit for 10 - 12 and play one makes no sense, IMO.

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02-16-2011, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by murp0837 View Post
I don't think the Sabres can waive Lalime. They either have to keep him, trade him, or buy him out at the end of the season. They can send him to the AHL. Here's the kicker, though. I THINK that even if he is sent to the minors, his salary will count against the Sabres salary cap, because he was 35 or older when he signed this contract. If he was younger than 35, and he got sent to the minors, his salary wouldn't count against the cap. That's how teams like the Bruins, Devils, and Rangers circumvent the salary cap.

I could be wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that's how is works.
Lalime is only signed through this season. He only makes $600K. He's already been paid 2/3rds of his salary. He doesn't have a no move clause so he can be waived regardless of his age. Regardless, the cap consequences are trivial.

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02-18-2011, 04:34 AM
  #41
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where is the Drama? I don't get it? Is the guy suppose to sit in the press box?

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02-18-2011, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by MillerFan1 View Post
So because you choose to have your real backup in Portland, and because he isn't doing the best you decide to not call him up at all and run your starter into the ground?

Makes sense.

If they really thought that Enroth wasn't deserving of a start then they should have waived Lalime and looked for a suitable backup. I will take it to my grave that the way Lindy and Darcy communicate over backup goaltenders is a top 3 problem with this team. Year in and year out they think they get a capable backup, Lindy doesn't use him and then his numbers look like a sack of trash.

Running your starter into the ground because you don't trust your #1 backup and your #1 prospect isn't lighting it up should NEVER be an option. 31 straight starts is asinine.

We all should send thank you notes to Vogl for finally getting Miller a game off. Without a loss there and an argument in the locker room, Ryan probably would have started last night and tonight too.
You sabres fans love to look for problems and complain about them any chance you get.

1. Does Ryan Miller have a mouth? (Hey coach night off please)
2. Vogl has nothing to do with it and neither do the fans
3. Elite goalies should be capable of starting 31 games it is not even close to the record.
4. Lalime won't be waived until new ownership. Why does everyone keep thinking hockey decisions and money aren't connected people need to wait 4 more days before they think they know everything.

You feel they should wave Lalime but you have absolutely know idea who's money you are spending and what is said in the lockerroom. This isn't a video game. People's pockets are involved. Like it or not it is the way it is.

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02-18-2011, 07:00 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by sabresfan123 View Post
You sabres fans love to look for problems and complain about them any chance you get.

1. Does Ryan Miller have a mouth? (Hey coach night off please)
2. Vogl has nothing to do with it and neither do the fans
3. Elite goalies should be capable of starting 31 games it is not even close to the record.
4. Lalime won't be waived until new ownership. Why does everyone keep thinking hockey decisions and money aren't connected people need to wait 4 more days before they think they know everything.

You feel they should wave Lalime but you have absolutely know idea who's money you are spending and what is said in the lockerroom. This isn't a video game. People's pockets are involved. Like it or not it is the way it is.
It isn't Ryan's job to say "Hey coach give me a night off." Its the coach's job to realize that a stupid team like the Islanders have lit him up beyond belief this year and to say, "Ya know what? Maybe we should give him a night off here."

The last game that Miller didn't start before this stretch was the freaking day before THANKSGIVING. Do you have any idea how long ago that was? During that time, yea we did have a 9 day break. But we also had 2 west coast road trips. we didn't even have snow then for crying out loud. Goalies are headcases. Miller said it himself, it was refreshing for him to know that he was going to have a night off a day ahead of time. What happened? It showed in his game vs the Leafs.

I'm not blaming that horrendous loss vs. the Isles on the fact that Miller started 31 in a row. I know he was off during the All Star break (where he couldn't practice with the team) but the whole logic of a guy starting 31 in a row in pretty much "must win" games is asinine. Making a guy fly from Buffalo to Calgary, to Edmonton, back to Buffalo then to Colorado, California, then Phoenix before coming home to start the rest of the month of January is a bit much... no?

Find me an elite goalie who in the last 5 years has started 31 games in a row. That's almost 38% of a season dude. He only got yanked in 2 of those 31 games.

They bought Tim Kennedy out for just as much as waiving Lalime would cost. Just sayin'

Bottom line is they want to be as cheap as possible and keep Enroth playing. I get it. But not giving Lalime a started game since November 20th and expecting him to be on top of his game if Miller were to get yanked is naive. At the bare minimum he should be sent down for a few games of conditioning so he can come back in game form. Lindy kept Miller in a game he had no business playing in because he has no faith in the guy on the bench. To me... that's a problem.

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02-18-2011, 12:43 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zbubble View Post
I didn't think he was run into the ground either. My God he just had 10 days off, played 2 games and all of a sudden he's shot. How is it that he couldn't recoup after 10 days? There were also a decent amount of days off between those 31 games. It's not like they were 15 back to backs. I think way to much is being made over this. Maybe he just had a stinker, nothing more, nothing less, and because of it everything the coach and organization has done is being microanalyzed when it doesn't need to be.
That's certainly possible, and probably correct, Zbub. The real rest given to Miller by Enroth playing against MTL was watching him win a big game for us. That has got to take some of the stress off of Miller's psyche, knowing (as opposed to hoping) that someone can come in and play well enough to win a big game so that he doesn't have to do it all. It's a subtle point, but when we're talking about mental fatigue, it's a big factor.

Playing under that kind of pressure for too long a period of time will take its toll on anyone.

Ta,

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02-18-2011, 01:28 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by MillerFan1 View Post
It isn't Ryan's job to say "Hey coach give me a night off." Its the coach's job to realize that a stupid team like the Islanders have lit him up beyond belief this year and to say, "Ya know what? Maybe we should give him a night off here."

The last game that Miller didn't start before this stretch was the freaking day before THANKSGIVING. Do you have any idea how long ago that was? During that time, yea we did have a 9 day break. But we also had 2 west coast road trips. we didn't even have snow then for crying out loud. Goalies are headcases. Miller said it himself, it was refreshing for him to know that he was going to have a night off a day ahead of time. What happened? It showed in his game vs the Leafs.

I'm not blaming that horrendous loss vs. the Isles on the fact that Miller started 31 in a row. I know he was off during the All Star break (where he couldn't practice with the team) but the whole logic of a guy starting 31 in a row in pretty much "must win" games is asinine. Making a guy fly from Buffalo to Calgary, to Edmonton, back to Buffalo then to Colorado, California, then Phoenix before coming home to start the rest of the month of January is a bit much... no?

Find me an elite goalie who in the last 5 years has started 31 games in a row. That's almost 38% of a season dude. He only got yanked in 2 of those 31 games.

They bought Tim Kennedy out for just as much as waiving Lalime would cost. Just sayin'

Bottom line is they want to be as cheap as possible and keep Enroth playing. I get it. But not giving Lalime a started game since November 20th and expecting him to be on top of his game if Miller were to get yanked is naive. At the bare minimum he should be sent down for a few games of conditioning so he can come back in game form. Lindy kept Miller in a game he had no business playing in because he has no faith in the guy on the bench. To me... that's a problem.
are you kidding me? After reading your first line there is nothing else to read. I don't think you have any credibility. Do you think when Martin Brodeur played 70+ games for 10 seasons in a row it was his decision? Do you think if Martin was tired and he told the coach he needed a rest the coach said forget you get back in the net? Come on, you can't be that niave, if Miller wants a night off he gets a night off, period.

The fact that you call a team stupid like the team itself is an entity with a level of intelligence really shows the maturity of your comments.
You ever think if a goalie got "lit up" maybe they would want to face them again instead of hiding on the bench. Hence the competetive nature of athletes.
Then you bring up Tim Kennedy when it has nothing to do with Ryan Miller playing too many games and Tim Kennedy couldn't even find an NHL spot for minimum wage.

Carry Price 52 games played
Miikka Kiprusoff 51 games played
Cam Ward 51 games played
Ryan Miller 46 games played
Glenn Hall 502 consecutive games-thats 7 straight years. 31 games is *****.
Grant Fuhr played 79 in one season
Brodeur over 700 in 10 seasons.
Kiprusoff 70+games last 4 seasons on pace this season(Is Miller not as good?)
Martin Brodeur at the age of 37 played 77 games last year and over 30 in a row


Your comeback is meaningless becuase if he is an elite goalie then play like one!
or is he not as good as all the other goalies?


You may have problems with the sabres but those problems mean nothing to the sabres.

you called the Islanders stupid-classic adjective for an NHL team
"goalies are headcases" hahahahahaha


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02-19-2011, 10:24 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by sabresfan123 View Post
are you kidding me? After reading your first line there is nothing else to read.
So why did you continue?

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Originally Posted by sabresfan123 View Post
Do you think when Martin Brodeur played 70+ games for 10 seasons in a row it was his decision? Do you think if Martin was tired and he told the coach he needed a rest the coach said forget you get back in the net? Come on, you can't be that niave, if Miller wants a night off he gets a night off, period.
So that's the only time a goalie gets a night off? I know if Miller said he wanted a night off, he would probably get it. But like I said, it isn't his job to do so. Lindy should look at the schedule and realize when the guy needs a night off. Also, its been said a million times around here that the Devils style of play and Buffalo's are completely different. You or I could probably get 5 wins a season playing for them a few years back. 15 shots against in some games. 12 in others. Not quite a lot of work there.

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The fact that you call a team stupid like the team itself is an entity with a level of intelligence really shows the maturity of your comments.
You're right. What I should have said was how pathetic those bottom feeders are this season. My bad.

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You ever think if a goalie got "lit up" maybe they would want to face them again instead of hiding on the bench. Hence the competetive nature of athletes.
Nobody said Miller would be hiding on the bench. It takes a coach to know when its a good opportunity for a guy to get a night off. Just as it takes a good coach to develop a plan to beat an opposing team. The Isles have owned Miller this year and one would have hoped that Lindy would have considered a change for that game.

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Then you bring up Tim Kennedy when it has nothing to do with Ryan Miller playing too many games and Tim Kennedy couldn't even find an NHL spot for minimum wage.
You brought up the fact that they aren't just going to piss money away by waiving Lalime. I brought up the fact that they pretty much did the same thing for Kennedy during the offseason; for the same amount of money. So yea my argument does apply. Maybe they wouldn't do it now, but I argued that they should have considered it in Mid to late November before Miller started 31 straight. People argued that buying out Kennedy made the team better because of what he was due to make... same can be said about Lalime. Tim Kennedy couldn't find a spot in the NHL for minimum wage? Looks like Lalime barely could too. No other team wanted him, so your argument there isn't the greatest. If ya buy out one worthless player, why not buy out another? Lalime certainly isn't helping us at all.

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Originally Posted by sabresfan123 View Post
Carry Price 52 games played
Miikka Kiprusoff 51 games played
Cam Ward 51 games played
Ryan Miller 46 games played
Glenn Hall 502 consecutive games-thats 7 straight years. 31 games is *****.
Grant Fuhr played 79 in one season
Brodeur over 700 in 10 seasons.
Kiprusoff 70+games last 4 seasons on pace this season(Is Miller not as good?)
Martin Brodeur at the age of 37 played 77 games last year and over 30 in a row.
You brought up Glen Hall to validate your argument? The NHL was far different back then than it is now. The game is way faster, goalies play much different than they did back then. What next? Miller is a nancy because he wears a helmet? Please.

Millers streak started shortly after he was out for 2 weeks with an injury. Not the best of times to throw a guy in for 31 straight.

Nice games played you brought up there... does that validate how many of those games were consecutive? How did those teams fare down the stretch and in the playoffs?

In those 10 seasons that Brodeur played over 700+ games, they made the finals 3 times. The rest of the time? Bounced in the 1st or 2nd rounds. That's pretty good, but not great in terms of your argument. Again, the Devils play a completely different style of game than the Sabres do. A strong defense will only allow so much on a starting goalie... the Sabres do not have a strong defense and they haven't had one for quite a while. (No matter what Regier tries to tell you.)

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Your comeback is meaningless becuase if he is an elite goalie then play like one!
or is he not as good as all the other goalies?
Miller is good, but I don't know if he is elite. He was last year, but this year is off and I don't know what the problem is. Probably partly because of starting 31 games in a row. I don't know, but what I do know is that he hasn't been on this season and that is part of the reason why we're fighting to get back into the playoff chase. This team here looks a lot like last years team but only with worse defense and goal tending. Big problem going through a full season like that. Also, since when is games played used as a factor to say whether or not a player is elite?

Miller might wear down more than guys like Brodeur who knows. Every player is different. It takes a good coach to realize his players limits. Lindy pushes things too far with Miller. Maybe he can't handle 72 games a season or 31 in a row. That doesn't mean he isn't capable of being a fantastic goalie for us. If he needs a night off once every couple of weeks, that shouldn't be an issue. In fact, that's pretty normal.

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You may have problems with the sabres but those problems mean nothing to the sabres.

you called the Islanders stupid-classic adjective for an NHL team
"goalies are headcases" hahahahahaha
Not sure what you meant there... most problems I have with this team are the same problems most other people have with the team.

Lack of goal scoring an in opportune times
No quality goaltender backing up Miller
Miller starting too many games in stretches
A below average defense
No proven depth
Old Veterans who don't belong here...
A captain who hasn't played since god knows when

Yea goalies are headcases. Why do you think the Sabres sent Miller to a Sports Psychiatrist? With goalies its all about confidence. Everyone knows that. Miller gets lit up by the Isles 2 times in a week and then again 2 weeks later. It says something.

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