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Old
02-18-2011, 03:03 PM
  #26
DubiDubiDoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stugots View Post
I'd do that if it were only one 1st. We're trying to re-build this team for the future (supposedly). Giving away 2 consecutive 1st rounders, even though we'd be getting Kessel, is not really a good idea IMO.
I understand, but how much younger can we get really???

Add to that the fact that Hank and Gabby are on the verge of 30 years old....How soon will the guy we draft next year (most likely in the 20-30 spot if we progress) take to get to the big club anyway.

The way I see it, our team that contends is already here or in the system...
we need some proven vet pieces next year..

Hell, with Dubi, Cally, Ani, Stepan, Gabby, Prust, Boyle, Zucca, Wolski....hopefully Kreider..

Thats 10 forwards right there, how many picks can we work in...

On D we have Staal, Girardi, McD, Sauer, Del Zotto....
then Kundratek and Valentenko in the system...

Were running out of room...IN A GOOD WAY of course

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Old
02-18-2011, 03:15 PM
  #27
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Gordie Clark really likes Thomas

Quote:
His strong season also caught the attention of the New York Rangers, who drafted Thomas 40th overall. While some teams shied away from Thomas’ small stature, pushing him to the second round, the Rangers keyed in on his skills and intangibles.

“We’ve gone through it with (Ryan) Callahan and there were a lot of question marks then around the league, but over the last couple of years it’s been, ‘Wow, look what this kid’s done,’” said Rangers director, player personnel, Gordie Clark. “Callahan doesn’t think he’s 5-foot-11, he thinks he’s 6-foot-3.”
http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...an-Thomas.html

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Old
02-18-2011, 03:23 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
he has intangibles he is going to be good just wait i don't trade him unless it is an overpayment

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02-18-2011, 03:36 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
I would absolutely trade him - for the right return, as Inferno says.

Only problem is, I don't know what the right return from Toronto is... maybe the recently acquired Colborne?
He's a better prospect right now than Colborne is. Pass on that.

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Old
02-18-2011, 03:38 PM
  #30
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Im keeping Thomas. I like seeing my prospects develop and become rangers

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02-18-2011, 03:38 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I would give Toronto

Thomas and our 2011 1st, 2nd (via Washington) and 2012 1st.....

For Kessel and Toronto's 2011 2nd.
What, are you a Leafs fan now? Get the hell out of here with that noise.

Two firsts, a second and Thomas? For Kessel? Phil the Thrill?

No thanks.

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02-18-2011, 03:50 PM
  #32
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Thomas is starting reach 'untouchable' status in my opinion. This kid has the type of skill level that is in short supply in this organization. Plus, I like his his bloodlines...Sons of former NHL players have a better understanding of what it takes to be successful in the NHL.

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02-18-2011, 04:05 PM
  #33
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Thomas' season after being drafted in the OHL is more impressive than Grachev's was.

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Old
02-18-2011, 04:07 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecemleafs View Post
Thomas' season after being drafted in the OHL is more impressive than Grachev's was.
youre not wrong. grachev had a ton of help, Thomas is more or less alone.

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Old
02-18-2011, 04:10 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jas View Post
Thomas is starting reach 'untouchable' status in my opinion. This kid has the type of skill level that is in short supply in this organization. Plus, I like his his bloodlines...Sons of former NHL players have a better understanding of what it takes to be successful in the NHL.
So that means little Borque is going to be like daddy?

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02-18-2011, 04:11 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
What, are you a Leafs fan now? Get the hell out of here with that noise.

Two firsts, a second and Thomas? For Kessel? Phil the Thrill?

No thanks.
I understand if you dont like it, but its actually-

two firsts, a second, and Thomas,....for Phil and Toronto's 2nd.

I know I wont convince you, but let me atleast explain.

1)Phil is a multiple 30+ goal scorer, sick speed, very young
2)Thomas, while a good prospect, is still unproven

As for the Picks-
Our first rounders will both be mid to later round picks
Toronto's second will be a better pick than the one we send them from Washington

No one wants to move any of the guys we like on this team, and we need proven help.

It's Thomas and 2 firsts for Kessel...

With our record drafting forward what are the chances our next 2 first rounders become 30+ goal scorers????

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02-18-2011, 04:32 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I understand if you dont like it, but its actually-

two firsts, a second, and Thomas,....for Phil and Toronto's 2nd.

I know I wont convince you, but let me atleast explain.

1)Phil is a multiple 30+ goal scorer, sick speed, very young
2)Thomas, while a good prospect, is still unproven

As for the Picks-
Our first rounders will both be mid to later round picks
Toronto's second will be a better pick than the one we send them from Washington

No one wants to move any of the guys we like on this team, and we need proven help.

It's Thomas and 2 firsts for Kessel...

With our record drafting forward what are the chances our next 2 first rounders become 30+ goal scorers????
It's a bad trade proposal because it's a clear overpayment and the targeted player is far from an ideal acquisition.... You keep throwing out the "30 goal scorer" phrase... What else does Kessel contribute? Does he kill penalties? Block shots well? Contribute in other areas of the ice outside of the offensive zone? You know how much he makes right? The guy is in and out of the dog house... Inconsistent, and one dimensional... You want 30 goals? Why don't you look for two young and inexpensive 20 goal scorers... Or you can roll the dice signing Gagne in the off-season, not lose any assets, and hope that he's healthy... $5.5 mil cap hit for Kessel for the next 3 full seasons? No thanks... I'll keep our next two first rounders and sink half the cap expense into multiple players whose combined production is capable of matching or exceeding Kessel's goal output, and players who contribute in other areas of the ice... Phil Kessel is easily the most one dimensional 30 goal getter in the league... And now he's got a pricey contract.... Stay away.


Last edited by wolfgaze: 02-18-2011 at 04:56 PM.
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Old
02-18-2011, 04:44 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I understand if you dont like it, but its actually-

two firsts, a second, and Thomas,....for Phil and Toronto's 2nd.

I know I wont convince you, but let me atleast explain.

1)Phil is a multiple 30+ goal scorer, sick speed, very young
2)Thomas, while a good prospect, is still unproven

As for the Picks-
Our first rounders will both be mid to later round picks
Toronto's second will be a better pick than the one we send them from Washington

No one wants to move any of the guys we like on this team, and we need proven help.

It's Thomas and 2 firsts for Kessel...

With our record drafting forward what are the chances our next 2 first rounders become 30+ goal scorers????
That proposal is a case of severe overpayment. 2 firsts for Phil freaking Kessel is bad enough, but throw in our second + Thomas just to add a second coming back?
I honestly thought that you were taking a shot at Burke with this proposal as a joke.

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Old
02-18-2011, 04:46 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I understand if you dont like it, but its actually-

two firsts, a second, and Thomas,....for Phil and Toronto's 2nd.

I know I wont convince you, but let me atleast explain.

1)Phil is a multiple 30+ goal scorer, sick speed, very young
2)Thomas, while a good prospect, is still unproven

As for the Picks-
Our first rounders will both be mid to later round picks
Toronto's second will be a better pick than the one we send them from Washington

No one wants to move any of the guys we like on this team, and we need proven help.

It's Thomas and 2 firsts for Kessel...

With our record drafting forward what are the chances our next 2 first rounders become 30+ goal scorers????
Which of these would you choose:

Option 1) 2 1st round picks, a 2nd round pick, Thomas and Brad Richards

Option 2) Phil Kessel and a 2nd round pick

If you say Option 2, you're crazy. Going with Option 2 makes Brad Richards an impossibility. If we don't sign Richards, Option 2 is still there, assuming toronto would even make that deal.

You know what Phil Kessel is? He's Scott Gomez. He's Chris Drury. He's a complimentary talent not worth what it would cost to acquire him. Yeah, he's younger than either of them were, but he's inconsistent and one-dimensional. I'm sure Torts would hate him.

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02-18-2011, 05:06 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Which of these would you choose:

Option 1) 2 1st round picks, a 2nd round pick, Thomas and Brad Richards

Option 2) Phil Kessel and a 2nd round pick

If you say Option 2, you're crazy. Going with Option 2 makes Brad Richards an impossibility. If we don't sign Richards, Option 2 is still there, assuming toronto would even make that deal.

You know what Phil Kessel is? He's Scott Gomez. He's Chris Drury. He's a complimentary talent not worth what it would cost to acquire him. Yeah, he's younger than either of them were, but he's inconsistent and one-dimensional. I'm sure Torts would hate him.
Absolutely would take option one.
This thread was about what we would want from Toronto to give up Thomas though.

Phil Kessel is an All-Star NHLer. What two first round picks of ours are all stars?
I was unaware of Kessel's salary, and that definately changes how I feel a bit because it restricts other things like going after Richards.

I do stand behind my original proposal though.
There is no guarantee with picks and prospects that they develop into anything.

And to address what Wolfgaze said about a 1 dimensional player. He's an excellent scorer, thats what we NEED. We dont need guys that can kill penalties, we have a roster full of them. We lack front end offensive talent.
I'd be all for 2 20 goal scorers for the price, but look at our own roster. What 20 goal scorers are you getting for half his price? We're about to pay Dubi and Cally what near 4 million a season. Yes, they are more complete than Kessel, but they cannot score like him. They are 20-25 goal scorers at best right now. Kessel could easily be a 40 goal scorer on a good team, and he's only 23 years old, younger than dubi and cally.

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Old
02-18-2011, 05:06 PM
  #41
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To the poster who said Thomas isn't playing with really anyone good. Thats not entirely fair. The gens actually have quite a few food players. Jenner, Jensen and Lessio are all projected as 1st , or early 2nd rounders in this draft

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02-18-2011, 05:09 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
It's a bad trade proposal because it's a clear overpayment and the targeted player is far from an ideal acquisition.... You keep throwing out the "30 goal scorer" phrase... What else does Kessel contribute? Does he kill penalties? Block shots well? Contribute in other areas of the ice outside of the offensive zone? You know how much he makes right? The guy is in and out of the dog house... Inconsistent, and one dimensional... You want 30 goals? Why don't you look for two young and inexpensive 20 goal scorers... Or you can roll the dice signing Gagne in the off-season, not lose any assets, and hope that he's healthy... $5.5 mil cap hit for Kessel for the next 3 full seasons? No thanks... I'll keep our next two first rounders and sink half the cap expense into multiple players whose combined production is capable of matching or exceeding Kessel's goal output, and players who contribute in other areas of the ice... Phil Kessel is easily the most one dimensional 30 goal getter in the league... And now he's got a pricey contract.... Stay away.
The salary aspect is important and I did not consider that.

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Old
02-18-2011, 05:13 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
And to address what Wolfgaze said about a 1 dimensional player. He's an excellent scorer, thats what we NEED.
What are you getting for your $5.5 mil player when he's not scoring? He just came off a 13 game goal scoring drought, do you think there was some intense pressure on him during that time to contribute something?

Here's some perspective... For the same $5.5 mil per year in cap space you would be willing to pay Kessel over the next 3 seasons, you could spend the same amount of cap space paying for the contracts of Boyle, Anisimov, and Stepan (Boyle & Artie likely to get deals similar to what Dubie got when he hit RFA for the first time and Stepan will make $850K over the next 2 seasons). Kessel likely to give you 30 G and around 60 points, but Boyle/Artie/Stepan could give you anywhere from 45-60 goals and 110-130 points combined. You don't need to sink $5.5 mil into a one dimensional player when you could spend the same amount of cap space on multiple players who will produce more and contribute more to the team... Obviously you won't be able to afford those 3 mentioned Ranger players for that price beyond the next 2 years, but that's why it's important to draft well and keep a steady influx of young players who start off with inexpensive contracts but are still contributing to our point production... As you know, those 3 players would contribute a heck of a lot more in other areas of the ice than Phil Kessel.... It's just poor cap space management to have Kessel on your roster. Certainly not worth losing two first round picks over either. I think you're putting too much importance/emphasis on having a single player provide the type of production you're looking for.


Last edited by wolfgaze: 02-18-2011 at 05:19 PM.
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Old
02-18-2011, 05:18 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by ColonialsHockey10 View Post
I don't see this high bust potential with Thomas. People just look at his size and figure he might never make the NHL. He plays gritty, goes into traffic, is very strong and he's not even THAT small.

Like everyone has said, obviously for the right return he's expendable, but he does have very high potential, amongst the top in our very deep system.
Good post. Thomas should have similar size to Callahan. Nuff said..

If Thomas keeps on playing with the grit and etc that he is showing, he should be fine in the NHL.. He is looking so far like a great 2nd round draft pick.

Although, I must add that when I was watching the draft and they announced Christian Thomas, he looked much shorter than his Dad when he hugged his dad at the draft, and his dad is not tall (Steve Thomas). It could have been the angle or whatever. I trust the scouts. Not sure if there is a youtube of this.

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Old
02-18-2011, 05:24 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
He's a better prospect right now than Colborne is. Pass on that.
Fair enough (and glad to hear it!) - I don't know much about the general consensus on Colborne's development in the last couple of years, which is why I asked it as a question. So that leaves me back at my original point, which is that I don't really know who I'd want out of the Leafs organization given how well Thomas seems to be progressing.

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02-18-2011, 05:25 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Sypher04 View Post
To the poster who said Thomas isn't playing with really anyone good. Thats not entirely fair. The gens actually have quite a few food players. Jenner, Jensen and Lessio are all projected as 1st , or early 2nd rounders in this draft
That's true, but Thomas truely is the force behind this team. He plays with Berger + Jenner right? except PP obviously.


Recording the Gens game tonight, hopefully Thomas lights up the scoreboard =)

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02-18-2011, 05:40 PM
  #47
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Quite often, yes. Jenner is a very good player in his own right tho

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02-18-2011, 05:43 PM
  #48
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http://ian.photoshelter.com/gallery-...000_724qQjiyIA

That's Thomas next to 6'4 Alain Berger. Doesn't loon much worse than Zuc or Pruch !

That's a good site to see Oshawa Gens game pics.

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02-18-2011, 05:51 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
What are you getting for your $5.5 mil player when he's not scoring? He just came off a 13 game goal scoring drought, do you think there was some intense pressure on him during that time to contribute something?

Here's some perspective... For the same $5.5 mil per year in cap space you would be willing to pay Kessel over the next 3 seasons, you could spend the same amount of cap space paying for the contracts of Boyle, Anisimov, and Stepan (Boyle & Artie likely to get deals similar to what Dubie got when he hit RFA for the first time and Stepan will make $850K over the next 2 seasons). Kessel likely to give you 30 G and around 60 points, but Boyle/Artie/Stepan could give you anywhere from 45-60 goals and 110-130 points combined. You don't need to sink $5.5 mil into a one dimensional player when you could spend the same amount of cap space on multiple players who will produce more and contribute more to the team... Obviously you won't be able to afford those 3 mentioned Ranger players for that price beyond the next 2 years, but that's why it's important to draft well and keep a steady influx of young players who start off with inexpensive contracts but are still contributing to our point production... As you know, those 3 players would contribute a heck of a lot more in other areas of the ice than Phil Kessel.... It's just poor cap space management to have Kessel on your roster. Certainly not worth losing two first round picks over either. I think you're putting too much importance/emphasis on having a single player provide the type of production you're looking for.
I agree with everything your saying in this post. My willingness stems for our continuing struggle to score goals.
I would never trade Anisimov and Stepan for Kessel. And if trading for Kessel meant moving them or not resigning them I would quickly do an about face. My thought is to get Kessel in here for essential what is Frolov and Gilroy money plus 750K.

I will admit maybe I'm overpaying, but I would say only a bit, and for a 23 year old.

I would also say though that people are overvaluing our draft picks. There are no guarantees with picks, not in ceiling, not in production and not in how long it will take them to get here.

My question would be who are the 2-3 guys we can GET to bring in what Kessel does production wise for his salary. And do we have the roster spots for it? I just think we have a team of 20 something goals scorers other than Gabby. I think it would help alot to have a Kessel. I concede the cap management wouldn't be the best we could do though.

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02-18-2011, 06:09 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
My question would be who are the 2-3 guys we can GET to bring in what Kessel does production wise for his salary. And do we have the roster spots for it?
Richards is the only forward I have on the radar in terms of UFA acquisitions, not interested in currently trading for anyone who's not a one season rental...

My point was that right now we're getting more production from the 3 mentioned players who cost about 1/2 of Kessel's cap hit (for the time being). If you continue to draft well, you will keep infusing young talent into your roster that can contribute to your offensive production, and they will be very inexpensive to retain due to the nature of contracts for young players as outlined by the CBA... As those players get older, you will pay them more, but you also expect increased output from what they're contributing today. It's just some cap perspective... When Kreider comes up, would you say it's realistic that he could pot 15 goals or so in his rookie season? Well that's half of your expected average goal output from Kessel right there, and you're only paying Kreider like $850K for each of his first 3 seasons of his ELC... Same could be said for players like Thomas when they are ready. You can achieve the same end (adding goal production) through different means. You are correct that we need to add some goal scoring to our roster, I think spending $5.5 mil on a player like Kessel isn't very cap efficient. Consider the value the Flyers are getting from Richards' $5.75 mil cap hit vs. what Toronto is getting from Kessel's $5.4 mil cap hit... Huge disparity in terms of what the players are contributing to the team....

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