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Where do you stand on the youth movement and the current state of the union

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Old
02-20-2011, 03:04 PM
  #26
Ranger_Engineer
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Continue the youth movement.

Sign Kreider

Sign Hagelin

If one or both of these guys result in letting go of Avery or Fedotenko or someone else on the 2nd/3rd lines, I'm OK with that.

Tell Christian Thomas to work out with Gary Roberts over the summer and he has a legit shot going into training camp this September.

His skill is undeniable and skill is what this team needs, but he needs to bulk up. I don't know if he has anything else to prove in the OHL and he can't go to the Whale. Jeff Skinner did it, why not Thomas?

Draft more skill in June . . . but maybe a PMD first.

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02-20-2011, 03:04 PM
  #27
Machinehead
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To me there's just a lack of star power coming out of our system. Girardi, Staal, Zuc, Stepan, Dubinsky, Callahan, Anisimov; they all are, or are likely to be, great B players, but in my opinion there's not an A player in the bunch,

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02-20-2011, 03:05 PM
  #28
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What do you want us to do, though?
I can't do anyting. Save not spending money on tickets, merchandise and food and drink at MSG.

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You have to assume Sather isn't going to be incompetent and actually do something right, at some point.
I don't have to assume that. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

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I'd laugh at you if you said Gaborik was a question mark yesterday because of this season only, but with the concussion you're right.
He was a question mark when Sather signed him.

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That being said, you have to assume our first rounder in Chris Kreider will eventually be able to handle 1st or 2nd line duties. That allows you to put him or Dubi in the top LW slot, which paired with Brad Richards will be fine.
Kreider is maybe one. But that's one. When did they get Brad Richards?

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If we had elite talent in the prospect pool we would've been contenders already, and wouldn't need Richards and Gaborik.
11 years in and the above is the problem.

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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
but the fact is we have a good prospect pool and that pushes us closer to being contenders.
Until these guys start to pan out (and all won't) they are not closer to being a contender.

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02-20-2011, 03:05 PM
  #29
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This team doesn't have enough talent to play that way.
BS, they got plenty. They just need to get better defensemen.

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02-20-2011, 03:05 PM
  #30
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We are stuck in mediocrity.

We are never in the lottery so we never have a chance and the young elite talent guys. Our defense has tremendous potential but offense talent is lacking BIG TIME. Guys like Dubkinsky, Callahan, Stepan, Anisimov, etc are great guys and huge parts to this team but I think people are expecting them to suddenly turn into Crosby. They are not "elite" guys who are going to carry this team. How people see us as contender in like 3 years is beyond me. I don't want my team to tank but this team has to get offensive talent somehow and I have no idea how to exactly do that with how this team is currently constructed.

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02-20-2011, 03:06 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Are you blind? Do you listen to games on the radio?

Cause if not and you need me to explain it to you then I don't know what to tell you.


You think the constant line juggling is effective?

Limiting your best players ice time in favor of players with less skill?

Scratching a player like Eminger for Del Zotto for all these games when our D zone break downs have killed us?



Please do, tell me what you see from Torts as an IN game coach that makes you think he's even reasonably effective?
Look I'm eh in torts myself I wanted him gone this year but all those overachieving wins this year and those comeback wins we kept having makes me think he might be reasonably effective. I'm not even saying good here.

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02-20-2011, 03:06 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Are you blind? Do you listen to games on the radio?

Cause if not and you need me to explain it to you then I don't know what to tell you.


You think the constant line juggling is effective?

Limiting your best players ice time in favor of players with less skill?

Scratching a player like Eminger for Del Zotto for all these games when our D zone break downs have killed us?



Please do, tell me what you see from Torts as an IN game coach that makes you think he's even reasonably effective?
The result on the ice for the first half of the season. You think the line juggling is the big problem? While I don't like it, the big problem is WE LACK GAMEBREAKERS. We have nobody who is a constant threat anytime they are on the ice. Torts, who makes some stupid line combos sometimes, wouldn't have to if we had BONAFIDE FIRST LINE PLAYERS. Instead we have to rely on our supporting cast to play 110% every night, which has crashed and burned.

And who's ice-time has he been limiting? The only argument you can make here is he's been giving Prust too much ice-time. Gaborik has been trash this season and everyone else who hasn't has been given ample ice-time.

Eminger was horrendous in his game back, and while I agree with this to an extent do you think scoring 1, losing by 2 is Del Zotto's fault? If our offense could hit twine with some of the golden opportunities they've been presented with in these one goal losses it'd be a NON-ISSUE.

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02-20-2011, 03:07 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
The defense is the least of our problems, IMO. We don't need a crease-clearer as much as we need a 1st line who will keep the puck out of our zone in the first place. And most times, Staal and Girardi, and even Sauer and McDonagh, are good enough at stopping the play before it gets to the crease. When they do, it's brain lapses or I guess you have to chalk it up to rookie mistakes.
With a good crease-clearer the Flyers score once and we win today. Matter of fact there's several games we win if we had one. We're trying to play a defensive, 2-1 victory system without a physical force on defense. It's laughable. Either get a Dman or change the system.

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02-20-2011, 03:09 PM
  #34
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Look I'm eh in torts myself I wanted him gone this year but all those overachieving wins this year and those comeback wins we kept having makes me think he might be reasonably effective. I'm not even saying good here.
And the way this team has played the last 20+ games isn't what they really are?

It's unfortunate because you see in the 3rd period today what happens when Torts gets off his soap box and lets the best players play.

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02-20-2011, 03:10 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
The result on the ice for the first half of the season. You think the line juggling is the big problem? While I don't like it, the big problem is WE LACK GAMEBREAKERS. We have nobody who is a constant threat anytime they are on the ice. Torts, who makes some stupid line combos sometimes, wouldn't have to if we had BONAFIDE FIRST LINE PLAYERS. Instead we have to rely on our supporting cast to play 110% every night, which has crashed and burned.

And who's ice-time has he been limiting? The only argument you can make here is he's been giving Prust too much ice-time. Gaborik has been trash this season and everyone else who hasn't has been given ample ice-time.

Eminger was horrendous in his game back, and while I agree with this to an extent do you think scoring 1, losing by 2 is Del Zotto's fault? If our offense could hit twine with some of the golden opportunities they've been presented with in these one goal losses it'd be a NON-ISSUE.
Damn right which of course the lack of 1st goes back to management. While I'm one to be fair and say the right moves seem to be getting made more often than bad and this team looks on the up and up the sins of the past are haunting us BIG time this year. Imagine what we're doing this year if instead of Dru we had Kovie? I did not want him signed b/c we franklycouldn't sign him but without that Dru contract I'd have been happy to get him.

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02-20-2011, 03:11 PM
  #36
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To me there's just a lack of star power coming out of our system. Girardi, Staal, Zuc, Stepan, Dubinsky, Callahan, Anisimov; they all are, or are likely to be, great B players, but in my opinion there's not an A player in the bunch,
Forget star power. I'll settle for more guys who are consistently effective. We all love Callahan and Staal because they are by and large consistently effective in that they find some way to give this team a better chance to win a game.

Look up and down this roster and there are not enough guys who do that. Wolski, Christensen, Gilroy, Del Zotto don't. And to a lesser degree Dubinsky, Boyle, Girardi, Ansimov and of late Lundqvist aren't consistently enough.

I also feel the hockey IQ of this team is not up to snuff, although, I'm willing to chalk that up to the overall inexperience of the team.

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02-20-2011, 03:13 PM
  #37
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I can't do anyting. Save not spending money on tickets, merchandise and food and drink at MSG.
That's not an argument. Obviously you're a Rangers fan or you would've given up on this team years ago. Obviously i'm a Rangers fan, too, or else I wouldn't be arguing with you about this. If it was as simple as not being a fan then this board wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be debating this.

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I don't have to assume that. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
So do you want to have 14 million in cap space locked up in Drury and Redden for the rest of Sather's tenure? He's going to have cap space at some point, and with that we hope and pray he signs someone like Richards.



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He was a question mark when Sather signed him.
And he had a humongous season last year. You can't discredit he's a dangerous, talented player. When he's healthy (last year) he's a force.


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Kreider is maybe one. But that's one. When did they get Brad Richards?
Kreider has potential to be a top 6 player. Derek Stepan has potential to be a top 6 player. The youth we've drafted and who are already bonafide NHL players, Staal (top pairing d-man), Dubi, Cally, are all top 6 players. I don't think you saw me say that our success hinges on acquiring someone like Richards, which is what i'm basing this argument on.


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11 years in and the above is the problem.
Yes, because we've only started drafting competently post-lockout except for basically Hank. I agree. But you can't discredit the contributions of the guys we've drafted playing in the NHL now, the talent of guys like Kreider, and as much as I hate to bring it up the tragedy that was losing Cherepanov.


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Until these guys start to pan out (and all won't) they are not closer to being a contender
A prospect pool of talented kids as opposed to a barren one? I'll say the prospect pool with talented kids giving you NHL players will make you closer to being a contender.

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02-20-2011, 03:13 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
The result on the ice for the first half of the season. You think the line juggling is the big problem? While I don't like it, the big problem is WE LACK GAMEBREAKERS. We have nobody who is a constant threat anytime they are on the ice. Torts, who makes some stupid line combos sometimes, wouldn't have to if we had BONAFIDE FIRST LINE PLAYERS. Instead we have to rely on our supporting cast to play 110% every night, which has crashed and burned.

And who's ice-time has he been limiting? The only argument you can make here is he's been giving Prust too much ice-time. Gaborik has been trash this season and everyone else who hasn't has been given ample ice-time.

Eminger was horrendous in his game back, and while I agree with this to an extent do you think scoring 1, losing by 2 is Del Zotto's fault? If our offense could hit twine with some of the golden opportunities they've been presented with in these one goal losses it'd be a NON-ISSUE.

It's about continuity. You think Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan is a bonafide first line? NO. But it's amazing what happens when they have some consistency isn't it?

Zuccarello was one of our best players an works his tail off (which apparently is all Torts wants) and yet his ice time has been limited a ton lately. Avery as well.

And yes, shame on Eminger for being shaky in is FOUR MINUTES OF ICE TIME AFTER BEING SCRATCHED FOR 2 STRAIGHT WEEKS.

It's no wonder the people who attempt to defend Torts are just as clueless.

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02-20-2011, 03:14 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
And the way this team has played the last 20+ games isn't what they really are?

It's unfortunate because you see in the 3rd period today what happens when Torts gets off his soap box and lets the best players play.
Well that's kinda what I implied when I said they overachieved all season. the fact that they did overachieve spoke volumes to me. Especially the way they pulled out games really battling and getting full 4 line efforts. And so many guys improved some by leaps and bounds others just visibly.N At this point last year i thought Torts was losing his players and was a blowhard. He's pulled a coughlin-esque change though and it shows in the way the youngins are playing almost every night.

It's hard to do because it's not as tangible as simple W and L but looking at the attitude and other factors like that are why yes I feel I can say he's at LEAST been reasonably effective

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It's no wonder the people who attempt to defend Torts are just as clueless.
Really so Torts does everything wrong and everyone who even thinks about defending even one single aspect of his coaching is clueless? Lets make generalizations and insult the fanbase now. No one here is saying the guy is the best coach in the league or anything you said "Reasonable" and I think he has been reasonable this year. This makes me clueless?


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02-20-2011, 03:16 PM
  #40
Barbara Underhill
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Some of the people calling for elite level prospects are the ones that scoffed when others mentioned rebuilding through the draft...

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02-20-2011, 03:16 PM
  #41
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02-20-2011, 03:17 PM
  #42
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It's about continuity. You think Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan is a bonafide first line? NO. But it's amazing what happens when they have some consistency isn't it?

Zuccarello was one of our best players an works his tail off (which apparently is all Torts wants) and yet his ice time has been limited a ton lately. Avery as well.

And yes, shame on Eminger for being shaky in is FOUR MINUTES OF ICE TIME AFTER BEING SCRATCHED FOR 2 STRAIGHT WEEKS.

It's no wonder the people who attempt to defend Torts are just as clueless.
Yeah, call me clueless if you think STEVE EMINGER is a big reason we're losing. Please.

Avery and Zuc are being given ample time to be successful. Avery works his ass off, but guess what? His playmaking skills come in flashes and his goal-scoring ability is pathetic.

And you think breaking up the Pack line is the reason we're losing? Again, please. That should be our second line. You keep playing them like a 1st line and we'd STILL be losing. Not to mention, Cally had been injured for a while and the Pack line has not been broken up purposely as much as you'd like to argue.

Please, don't call me ****ing clueless when this is entirely arguable and you're obviously anti-Torts, when there's a reason he does what he does.

edit- And are you really saying this 3rd period is what happens when he "lets the best players play?" Jesus christ, this is the most opinionated argument i've ever seen, and yet you call me clueless. Yet i'm sure during this entire strech of heartbreaking 1 goal losses because OUR BEST GUYS (Dubinsky, Anisimov, W2-Step-Zuc line) haven't been able to convert on golden opportunities, he was playing "our best guys."

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02-20-2011, 03:22 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
It's about continuity. You think Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan is a bonafide first line? NO. But it's amazing what happens when they have some consistency isn't it?

Zuccarello was one of our best players an works his tail off (which apparently is all Torts wants) and yet his ice time has been limited a ton lately. Avery as well.

And yes, shame on Eminger for being shaky in is FOUR MINUTES OF ICE TIME AFTER BEING SCRATCHED FOR 2 STRAIGHT WEEKS.

It's no wonder the people who attempt to defend Torts are just as clueless.
Have you been watching? Zuccarello hasd been tailing off hard before the limit in ice time. He had a stellar game today but that doesn't mean he wasn't struggling before hand.

The Dubinsky - AA - Callahan line has been inconsistent as well. But Torts acutally HAS kept this line together.

Eminger was trending downward before his benching and looked really bad in his limited ice time in his game back.

You can't blame the coach for this teams lack of top end talent. Torts actually does go with his players that are best within the game and that's the way you have to do it when your "go to guy" has been bad and you don't have a secondary "go to guy."

You can try, like you are, but Torts is definitely not the root of the issue. He is a HUGE reason why this team overachieved the first half. Does he deserve some fo the blame for the tailspin? Sure. But for the call for him to be fired is utterly ridiculous.

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02-20-2011, 03:22 PM
  #44
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That's not an argument. Obviously you're a Rangers fan or you would've given up on this team years ago. Obviously i'm a Rangers fan, too, or else I wouldn't be arguing with you about this. If it was as simple as not being a fan then this board wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be debating this.
I'm not saying that I won't be a fan. But I want give my money to the team. I have been to three games since the lockout and I did not pay for the tickets and I did not buy anything in the Garden.



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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
So do you want to have 14 million in cap space locked up in Drury and Redden for the rest of Sather's tenure? He's going to have cap space at some point, and with that we hope and pray he signs someone like Richards.
I don't want it locked up. But I can't forget that it was same the guy who gave out those contracts who is going to get this capspace.


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And he had a humongous season last year.
He did. He was healthy. That has been the exception, not the rule. But it was the same MO and thinking that resulted in the Gaborik contract that did in the Gomez, Drury and Redden deals.


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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Kreider has potential to be a top 6 player. Derek Stepan has potential to be a top 6 player. The youth we've drafted and who are already bonafide NHL players, Staal (top pairing d-man), Dubi, Cally, are all top 6 players. I don't think you saw me say that our success hinges on acquiring someone like Richards, which is what i'm basing this argument on.
That's fine. But the "just wait for the prospects to develop and then get ready for a Cup run" mentality is dangerous and what the new MSG propaganda seems to be.


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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
Yes, because we've only started drafting competently post-lockout except for basically Hank. I agree. But you can't discredit the contributions of the guys we've drafted playing in the NHL now, the talent of guys like Kreider, and as much as I hate to bring it up the tragedy that was losing Cherepanov.
If the loss of Cherepanov set this team back so much, it just show's how poorly this organization has been run over the last 11 years. And why I have little faith in current management to right the ship.



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A prospect pool of talented kids as opposed to a barren one? I'll say the prospect pool with talented kids giving you NHL players will make you closer to being a contender.
Why? The teams that the Rangers are going to be contending with have talent pools too. And some of theirs are already paying dividends.

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02-20-2011, 03:25 PM
  #45
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Yeah, call me clueless if you think STEVE EMINGER is a big reason we're losing. Please.
Exactly

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Avery works his ass off, but guess what? His playmaking skills come in flashes and his goal-scoring ability is pathetic.
2 goals on 120 shots for a 1.7% shooting percentage... That's all you need to say about that...

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02-20-2011, 03:27 PM
  #46
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His PHILOSOPHY is a big reason this team has overachieved. And I stated I liked that about him.

His in game skills as a coach have cost this team multiple points this season.

Hey what the hell, maybe it all evens out

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02-20-2011, 03:27 PM
  #47
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I've been questioning Tortorella's in game decisions for weeks in my head. Glad I'm not the only one.

I get why he juggles lines so much, even though I disagree with it. What I don't understand is why you've got Boyle and Prust on the ice in the last two minutes of a game you're losing by one goal. They go off in favor of Dubinsky's line and then Boyle and Prust are out again the very next shift. Hell, I even get why you might do that with Boyle, given all the big goals he's scored for us this season, but there is no reason why Prust's skates should touch the ice in the last 90 seconds of a one goal game that you're losing. It's symptomatic of what's been driving me crazy about Tortorella since he got here. He's got "his guys" and sometimes that's more to the detriment of the team than the benefit.

This team has had serious passing issues since he got here. They also have timing issues. How many times have we seen offsides on important rushes? I've been saying this for a long time: they don't spend enough time maintaining their fundamentals. These things fall squarely on the coach.

That being said, this team is essentially two, albeit difficult to obtain, players from being a top team in the East. I'm willing to see how the next couple of years pan out with this group.

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02-20-2011, 03:28 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I'm not saying that I won't be a fan. But I want give my money to the team. I have been to three games since the lockout and I did not pay for the tickets and I did not buy anything in the Garden.





I don't want it locked up. But I can't forget that it was same the guy who gave out those contracts who is going to get this capspace.




He did. He was healthy. That has been the exception, not the rule. But it was the same MO and thinking that resulted in the Gaborik contract that did in the Gomez, Drury and Redden deals.




That's fine. But the "just wait for the prospects to develop and then get ready for a Cup run" mentality is dangerous and what the new MSG propaganda seems to be.




If the loss of Cherepanov set this team back so much, it just show's how poorly this organization has been run over the last 11 years. And why I have little faith in current management to right the ship.





Why? The teams that the Rangers are going to be contending with have talent pools too. And some of theirs are already paying dividends.
It seems like we're agreeing on most of the same issues- the organization is terribly run which leads to most of our problems, but the major divergence is that I'm optimistic that Sather might do something good with the cap space we'll have while you're still pessimistic. I can see why, and I'm scared for it too (i'm terrified of what happens before the trade deadline), but I think if he makes the RIGHT moves we'll be incredibly close to contending since we're not a bad team in spite of him. IMO we have a great 2nd line down.

Dubinsky-Anismov-Cally
W2-Stepan-MZA
Feds-Boyle-Prust

I'd go to war with that as my bottom 9. But the fact is our top 3 is not very good, which is on Sather, and because of how bad he's run the organization we rely on him getting someone like Richards to do it.

Ideally, I'd like to see

Kreider-Richards-Gaborik.

I think that, with a healthy Gaborik, makes us a contender. And that's fine if you disagree, I just think we're missing one or two offensive players to put us over the top.

edit- And hell, I can even agree I find some of what Torts does baffling, like giving Pruster so much ice-time.

But when he had this team buying into the "never give up" system, and had people busting their ass off to win games, I felt like he was the perfect coach for this young team. I think he's a big reason Dubinsky is becoming the player he is, and also why a guy like Boyle is playing the best hockey of his pro career, and even why W2 hasn't been floating. I think a guy like Tortorella is great for this team at this point, and I'd love to see what he could mold them into WITH a real top line.

If we could have a skilled top line to make it so we didn't have to play 110% every night, that would not only make it so Torts didn't have to juggle lines, but it'd also make it so the right people would get the right ice-time and whatnot.


Last edited by BlueshirtBlitz: 02-20-2011 at 03:37 PM.
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Old
02-20-2011, 03:37 PM
  #49
ruckus*
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
It seems like we're agreeing on most of the same issues- the organization is terribly run which leads to most of our problems, but the major divergence is that I'm optimistic that Sather might do something good with the cap space we'll have while you're still pessimistic. I can see why, and I'm scared for it too (i'm terrified of what happens before the trade deadline), but I think if he makes the RIGHT moves we'll be incredibly close to contending since we're not a bad team in spite of him. IMO we have a great 2nd line down.

Dubinsky-Anismov-Cally
W2-Stepan-MZA
Feds-Boyle-Prust

I'd go to war with that as my bottom 9. But the fact is our top 3 is not very good, which is on Sather, and because of how bad he's run the organization we rely on him getting someone like Richards to do it.

Ideally, I'd like to see

Kreider-Richards-Gaborik.

I think that, with a healthy Gaborik, makes us a contender. And that's fine if you disagree, I just think we're missing one or two offensive players to put us over the top.

edit- And hell, I can even agree I find some of what Torts does baffling, like giving Pruster so much ice-time.

But when he had this team buying into the "never give up" system, and had people busting their ass off to win games, I felt like he was the perfect coach for this young team.

If we could have a skilled top line to make it so we didn't have to play 110% every night, that would not only make it so Torts didn't have to juggle lines, but it'd also make it so the right people would get the right ice-time and whatnot.

So your defense of the organization is based on a wing a prayer and a dream you have of the future?

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02-20-2011, 03:38 PM
  #50
rangers4ever2007
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gilroy + 2nd for mccabe won't make us distract the youth movement

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