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Old
02-20-2011, 04:55 PM
  #51
wolfgaze
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Not saying the coach is out to get him at all. In truth, I'm agreeing with what you're saying about Tortorella being a carrot and stick guy. However, I whole-heartedly disagree with the notion that you should motivate all of your players in the same way. Some guys require some one-on-one time. Some guys require a show of faith that your game brings value to the team. Avery is the latter for sure. And he's stubborn, which means that he's not about to find other ways to be effective. Is some of that on Avery? Sure. A coach's job is to find the right seat on the bus for a player and utilize him there to the best of that player's ability. Tortorella clearly does not see a seat on the bus for the Avery that gave the Rangers such a different edge when under Renney. Then again, this is a very different team than that one. Avery was the one emotional player on a team of low key professionals. Now he's one of a few emotional players and some of those guys are more important to the score sheet than he is.

My whole point here is that Avery's issues do stem from his relationship with Tortorella, but having the old Renney-era Avery back wouldn't necessarily be the best thing for this team.
All of this makes sense to me...

If you look at our forwards, far more important forwards are thriving under Tortorella (Dubinsky, Callahan, Boyle, etc), so I'm not losing much sleep over this Avery business... He's a bottom 6 player anyway and likely doesn't have much of a future with this team beyond next season... Not unless he has a much more consistent year next season and is readily willing to take a paycut from his previous $3.8 mil salary.

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Old
02-20-2011, 05:02 PM
  #52
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What competent fan has ever thought he has?
So stop your crying about unfair treatment from Tortorella when he's playing on the 3rd or 4th lines.

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02-20-2011, 05:06 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
I completely agree with you but that further emphasizes my point why it's obvious that he's had to reign it in.

HE IS HELD TO A DOUBLE STANDARD. It's clear as day.And if he were being "Old Sean" and taking penalties for it can you imagine the outrage by these same people criticizing him for toning it down?

I don't disagree he has made his own bed with the refs, but that's no excuse for idiots on here to be blind to the BS calls/non calls he gets.Show some discretion people and call it like it is. It's amazing how people allow their bias to cloud their opinions on this stuff.

Do people really think Sean makes up things like what he said the other day? Where he told the media that refs tell him to "go **** himself" when he asks what he did?

They really think he makes it up for the hell of it?

It is what it is and it's clear as day.
It is clear to me that there is a double standard with him, no doubt.

What bothers me more than the calls against Sean, are the non-calls when he's being fouled.

If the refs feel the need to keep a closer eye on him because of the things he's said and done, so be it, he earned the reputation and closer look from the officials.

WHAT SICKENS ME is when officials turn a blind eye to fouls committed against him. As long as the NHL deems he is worthy of the priviledge of playing in the league, both the league and its officials should be ashamed that they let anyone be held to a different standard when addressign infractions AGAINST a play.

The job of an official is to enforce the rules, if they think one player deserves to be watched more than others because of their history I'm just fine with that, what is NOT ok is to decide during the course of play that an infraction against one player is not the same as an infraction against ANY player. Its unprofessional, and it hurts the integrity of the league.

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02-20-2011, 05:12 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Not at all. I read this board because I love the Rangers but if I'm looking for intelligence this would be the last place I'd go.

It's also obvious that the minority is always the vocal group. So because four of you start threads about the guy and most people are so sick of it they don't feel the need to comment says nothing about me.
For the record, I've never started a thread about the guy, I could really care less.

But when it comes up, I sometimes comment. I have my opinions on him, and I think he can work harder. I don't think it has very much to do with Tortorella, certainly at least not as much as you are all asserting. We've seen Sean be a force out there, hitting everything in sight, etc. It happened when he got promoted to play with (if I recall correctly) Anisimov and ______ (don't remember, all that line juggling).

But there's the rub. We've seen it from him, but in flashes. Where is it every night? Is that on Torts too? How come Prust, Cally, etc. bring it every night?

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02-20-2011, 05:12 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
So stop your crying about unfair treatment from Tortorella when he's playing on the 3rd or 4th lines.

Show me one quote where I've ever said anything along those lines.

I've always been adamant in my defense of Avery because people start threads like this as if they expect him to NOT be a 3rd or 4th liner and get made when he doesn't produce like a top 6 forward.

That's why I defend him so much. Do you see any threads about Prust and how he doesn't produce? No because most people understand what his role is.

For some reason people think Avery should be scoring 50 points a game.

For some reason people think that Avery doesn't have a coach who has lecture him constantly about taking penalties and hurting the team.

For some reason people think that Avery isn't held to a double standard by officials in this league.


That's why I defend the guy. The guy who battles his ass off in the corners and in front of the net for this team.

The guy who works hard every shift he's on the ice and even if he's not the most talented guy tries his hardest to help this team win games.

That always seems to be what this fan base asks for, but with Sean it's not enough for some people.

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02-20-2011, 05:18 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by BrandNewDream View Post
But there's the rub. We've seen it from him, but in flashes. Where is it every night? Is that on Torts too? How come Prust, Cally, etc. bring it every night?
Don't bother asking difficult questions... You'll get the same canned responses & excuses....

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02-20-2011, 05:20 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by BrandNewDream View Post
For the record, I've never started a thread about the guy, I could really care less.

But when it comes up, I sometimes comment. I have my opinions on him, and I think he can work harder. I don't think it has very much to do with Tortorella, certainly at least not as much as you are all asserting. We've seen Sean be a force out there, hitting everything in sight, etc. It happened when he got promoted to play with (if I recall correctly) Anisimov and ______ (don't remember, all that line juggling).

But there's the rub. We've seen it from him, but in flashes. Where is it every night? Is that on Torts too? How come Prust, Cally, etc. bring it every night?
My point is that there's always one person who starts one of these threads every time we lose as if Sean is the root of the problem.

Avery has played well all year long. Asking him to elevate his game to top 6 role is ridiculous. And yet when he has been asked to this year he has done a great job. He is not a finisher and he never will be. yet he has created plenty of chances for players.

He does give it every night. You didn't watch today, did you? He always is creating. He just has no finishing ability. He's a 4th liner. And that is not reason enough to draw yours and others ire.


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Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
It is clear to me that there is a double standard with him, no doubt.

What bothers me more than the calls against Sean, are the non-calls when he's being fouled.

If the refs feel the need to keep a closer eye on him because of the things he's said and done, so be it, he earned the reputation and closer look from the officials.

WHAT SICKENS ME is when officials turn a blind eye to fouls committed against him. As long as the NHL deems he is worthy of the priviledge of playing in the league, both the league and its officials should be ashamed that they let anyone be held to a different standard when addressign infractions AGAINST a play.

The job of an official is to enforce the rules, if they think one player deserves to be watched more than others because of their history I'm just fine with that, what is NOT ok is to decide during the course of play that an infraction against one player is not the same as an infraction against ANY player. Its unprofessional, and it hurts the integrity of the league.


I agree with all of that, but my defense for him has more to do with the fans who refuse to acknowledge it.

I'm not here to defend Sean or act like he deserves respect from the league or other players.

I'm not saying he does.

But for fans of our own team to not see the bias because of his past actions is embarrassing.

That's what drives me crazy.

I am not happy when I don't see "old Sean" out there...but at the same time I understand why and I'm not going to start threads ripping him for it.

Fact of the matter is he's trying to be a team player. He knows acting like thta is only going to hurt the team. And he's done his best to prevent that. If anything, he should be applauded.

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02-20-2011, 05:29 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
Is he or is he not on pace for his career average in points?

Oh wait, he is.
No, he is not.

Look, I appreciate that we agree as to why he isn't playing as well. But he's on pace for 27 points. That's 6 less points than last season. 5 more points than he posted in half a year the previous season. It will be the least number of points he's posted in a season where he played 50 or more games since two years before the lockout. And even more striking, he's probably going to end up with half the number of goals as the lowest number he's hit in his entire NHL career and that was in his rookie season.

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02-20-2011, 05:36 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Look, I appreciate that we agree as to why he isn't playing as well. But he's on pace for 27 points. That's 6 less points than last season. 5 more points than he posted in half a year the previous season. It will be the least number of points he's posted in a season where he played 50 or more games since two years before the lockout. And even more striking, he's probably going to end up with half the number of goals as the lowest number he's hit in his entire NHL career and that was in his rookie season.
Torts will get blamed for not having played him more even though it was conceded that he's not a top 6 forward on any roster.

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02-20-2011, 05:58 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
I would hope most people on here are smart enough to know what Avery is.
Most of us are, but clearly not everyone.

If we accept all of your excuses as to why Avery is a watered-down version of his former self, then it should also be evident to even those who still adore him, that he is absolutely worthless at this point in time.

No matter who is right as to why he sucks, at present, he sucks.

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02-20-2011, 06:05 PM
  #61
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Avery looks good to those who watch, but not to those who can only read numbers the next day...

He's not the problem, putting him with the right guys is the problem.

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02-20-2011, 06:16 PM
  #62
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He really looks like he's down on himself. After every shot that is stopped, he has this look of utter defeat and desperation on his face. Couple that with the fact he's not engaging enemy forwards in any shenanigans, and he's VERY ineffective right now. Someone needs to piss him off on the first shift and let him run wild.

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02-20-2011, 06:34 PM
  #63
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Avery's game hasn't been the same since the league cracked down on him. You don't let an agitator agitate and his game is gone, it would be the same if the league treated Carcillo, Ruutu, or Neil the same way, but they don't. Instead they allow players to rail on Avery every game and make completely biased calls.

Its obvious and hoestly, if people don't see the correlation there then they aren't worth arguing with. I'd imagine he will likely retire after his contract is up and the NHL will finally get what they want and have forced a player out.

The new NHL sucks.

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02-20-2011, 07:00 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Torts will get blamed for not having played him more even though it was conceded that he's not a top 6 forward on any roster.
I think the problem for many of us, including Rob, isn't that we dont think Torts gives him enough time. Its in the way that he's used in that time.

Rob, correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not trying to speak for you here, as this is how I feel, but I would really like Torts to use Sean 12-16 minutes a night, and be more selective in his deployment.

I don't think there is anything wrong with Torts telling Sean before a game to get out there and agitate the F out of Kovalchuck, or Crosby, or Pronger, or any of a slew of guys that may react to his antics because he's such a pest.

Torts comes across with an attiude that thats not part of the game, and thats fine, but Sean then becomes much less effective. I honestly believe that Torts thinks he can turn Sean into a player, but sometimes you just have to use what you got.

If Sean hurt people like Ruutu and Cooke, etc, I'd say Torts was doin the right thing. Letting guys like Cooke run wild is like locking someone in a room with a an axe murderer, someones getting hurt...Letting Sean loose is more like locking someone in a room with an Islanders fan...its more likely you end up hurting them for being so annoying, then they hurt you...

Again though, Sean has to be responsible for Seans play when all is said and done.

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Old
02-20-2011, 07:04 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
I don't think there is anything wrong with Torts telling Sean before a game to get out there and agitate the F out of Kovalchuck, or Crosby, or Pronger, or any of a slew of guys that may react to his antics because he's such a pest.

Torts comes across with an attiude that thats not part of the game, and thats fine, but Sean then becomes much less effective. I honestly believe that Torts thinks he can turn Sean into a player, but sometimes you just have to use what you got.
This is pretty much how I feel. I think it's okay to do whatever you need to in order to knock the other team off their game. Tortorella feels differently.

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02-20-2011, 07:25 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
My point is that there's always one person who starts one of these threads every time we lose as if Sean is the root of the problem.

Avery has played well all year long. Asking him to elevate his game to top 6 role is ridiculous. And yet when he has been asked to this year he has done a great job. He is not a finisher and he never will be. yet he has created plenty of chances for players.

He does give it every night. You didn't watch today, did you? He always is creating. He just has no finishing ability. He's a 4th liner. And that is not reason enough to draw yours and others ire.
You're saying he doesn't deserve a top 6 role, but you're hemming and hawing about his minutes? And if he's done a great job in his top 6 role (which I agree with), how come he cant do a similarly good job and help raise the level of the 4th line? Boyle and Prust clearly help one another elevate their games, and have done it without disappearing this season, IMO. Avery hasn't.

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Old
02-20-2011, 09:02 PM
  #67
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if hes not going to agitate hes just another expendable third/fourth liner. people dont want to admit that because they're in love with him.

i blame tortorella for keeping him on a leash

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02-21-2011, 09:59 AM
  #68
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The NHL is more about marketing than it is about fair play. They decided some time ago that Sean Avery was bad for the game. For instance:--the Avery rule was illegaly implemented over the course of 24 hours instead of being debated during the off season and put to a vote like any other rule would have been.

Since then NHL referess--who for whatever reason felt embarrassed by Avery's antics in that one playoff game--have targeted Sean (much like they targeted Kovalev after that one called back goal vs. Quebec in another playoff series--1995?)--the NHL embarrassed by the fallout from the sloppy seconds remarks Avery made have backed them all the way.

Avery's game though seems to be deteriorating to me. Not hard to understand--he's not big and he's been pounding and getting pounded for a long time--not forgetting all the outside activities. He's not a $4 mil per player. For how Torts uses him it's debatable whether he's a $2 mil per year player--what the Rangers are paying for him. NYC seems to be the place he wants to be and yet there doesn't seem to be a future for him here beyond next season. I'm not sure anyone wants him or that Sean would be willing to play anywhere else. Maybe--hometown Toronto.

To be honest I like Avery's brashness and I find it refreshing that he's not your average NHL'er--that he has outside interests that aren't the normal meat and potatoes crap that interests almost every other player--let's go golfing--let's not. What it really comes down to is how effective he's going to be--and right now he's not very effective. Keeping that in mind though he has a lot of company and some of those other guys are getting a free ride while Sean is being targeted over and over again.

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02-21-2011, 10:56 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Keeping that in mind though he has a lot of company and some of those other guys are getting a free ride while Sean is being targeted over and over again.
When Redden, Drury, and Rozy were the targets, everyone (almost) piled on. When it's Avery, some folks all of a sudden don't think it's "fair". Hey, we have one thread dedicated to the suckiness of Redden as a pinned entity. But Avery has "excuses" for his bad play.

My favorite comment in the thread so far, is that fans that watch the game can see that Avery is playing well, presuming that those of us who aren't happy with him are just reading box scores. Priceless.

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02-21-2011, 11:33 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
When Redden, Drury, and Rozy were the targets, everyone (almost) piled on. When it's Avery, some folks all of a sudden don't think it's "fair". Hey, we have one thread dedicated to the suckiness of Redden as a pinned entity. But Avery has "excuses" for his bad play.

My favorite comment in the thread so far, is that fans that watch the game can see that Avery is playing well, presuming that those of us who aren't happy with him are just reading box scores. Priceless.
Chosen, I think the fact that with Avery not everyone is piling on speaks volumes.
There are no arguments that can made for Redden and Drury at this point. Avery can be helpful when deployed with a specific intention.

Rozy got abuse but also alot of defense, because even someof us that wanted him gone didn't think he was a terrible player, we were just ready to move on. Rozy has redeeming qualities.
Avery is much the same. While his play has dropped off, used correctly he could still be effective. When Avery has lost all usefullness to the team everyone will pile on just like Redden and Drury.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The coach refused to use him in the way the best fits Avery's game. That doesn't excuse Avery from criticism though, he's a professional and needs to rise to whatever role he's given.

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02-21-2011, 04:38 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by DubiDubiDoo View Post
Chosen, I think the fact that with Avery not everyone is piling on speaks volumes.
I agree.

When it's a fan favorite, he is cut far more slack.

Ironic, that those complaining about Avery being held to a double-standard by the league, bend over backwards to treat him better than they treat other Rangers that are vastly under-performing.

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02-21-2011, 04:56 PM
  #72
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Before even clicking the thread i thought the OP was going for




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Old
02-21-2011, 05:08 PM
  #73
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he said and I quote "sloppy seconds". This was the end of him

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02-21-2011, 05:14 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Most of us are, but clearly not everyone.

If we accept all of your excuses as to why Avery is a watered-down version of his former self, then it should also be evident to even those who still adore him, that he is absolutely worthless at this point in time.

No matter who is right as to why he sucks, at present, he sucks.

So your definition of "he sucks" is that he's producing at a 3rd/4th liner production level?

Funny, because that's what he is.

Again, my point remains the same that the people who criticize him hold him to unrealistic expectations.

If there were any other explanation it would be obvious.

What's annoying is the people who apply the general statements of random people and then use them to further their argument against a poster who never stated anything. It makes these conversations impossible to have.

My point all along has been that Avery is a solid 3rd/4th line role player. And he's done nothing this year to change that.

Has he been the same guy that we knew when he came here? Not at all. But again, the reasons why are obvious.

It is what it is. There's people who love Avery and people who hate him. But the people who hold him to higher production standards and then rip him for it are just clueless.

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Old
02-21-2011, 05:35 PM
  #75
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Not gonna lie, I am tired as hell of the blind passes into the slot.

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