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Old
02-21-2011, 03:31 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by I Will Son View Post
Poiles protege is making the moves I want Poile himself to make...
I had that thought. I would have loved a Franson for Neal\Niskanen swap, even if it meant a separate deal to upgrade Niskanen(who isn't very good.)

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02-21-2011, 03:34 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
I had that thought. I would have loved a Franson for Neal\Niskanen swap, even if it meant a separate deal to upgrade Niskanen(who isn't very good.)
Thats the exact proposal that i thought of after seeing that trade. I would of done it. I dont see Franson here after next year any way, we could use Ellis, Josi or Blum as a replacement.

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02-21-2011, 03:48 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by I Will Son View Post
Poiles protege is making the moves I want Poile himself to make...
Shero > Poile

Makes the hard moves, and they're usually the right moves.

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02-21-2011, 03:50 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
I had that thought. I would have loved a Franson for Neal\Niskanen swap, even if it meant a separate deal to upgrade Niskanen(who isn't very good.)
I don't think Franson would have been enough. But, I would gladly thrown in extras for Neal.

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02-21-2011, 03:57 PM
  #305
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I don't think Franson would have been enough. But, I would gladly thrown in extras for Neal.
I actually prefer Franson to Goligoski. AG is a little overrated, IMO...he's looked like a different player since Crosby and Malkin went down. Franson's offensive ability is about even, but I actually think Franson's defense is better.

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02-21-2011, 04:16 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
I actually prefer Franson to Goligoski. AG is a little overrated, IMO...he's looked like a different player since Crosby and Malkin went down. Franson's offensive ability is about even, but I actually think Franson's defense is better.
Really? Did you just say that? Most guys look different when 2 of the 5 top players in the world that play on the same team go down.

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02-21-2011, 04:17 PM
  #307
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I actually prefer Franson to Goligoski. AG is a little overrated, IMO...he's looked like a different player since Crosby and Malkin went down. Franson's offensive ability is about even, but I actually think Franson's defense is better.
Well, Shero has a small advantage in that his team is not in the same conference and fighting for the same playoff spots. Would Dallas really sent Neal to us when we have two more games to play against each other? Maybe but why take the chance when you can trade to the other conference? Poile may have offered a deal but Dallas turned it down.

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02-21-2011, 04:20 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by lstcyr View Post
Well, Shero has a small advantage in that his team is not in the same conference and fighting for the same playoff spots. Would Dallas really sent Neal to us when we have two more games to play against each other? Maybe but why take the chance when you can trade to the other conference? Poile may have offered a deal but Dallas turned it down.
Absolutely. I'd even call it a massive advantage.

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02-21-2011, 04:30 PM
  #309
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Really? Did you just say that? Most guys look different when 2 of the 5 top players in the world that play on the same team go down.
The point I'm trying to make is that I think his stats are padded somewhat by the people he plays with. When exposed, he's a completely different player.

And as mentioned below, I can't imagine Dallas really being eager to make a deal with a team that's two points ahead of them in the standings.

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02-21-2011, 04:36 PM
  #310
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And as mentioned below, I can't imagine Dallas really being eager to make a deal with a team that's two points ahead of them in the standings.
Maybe. But it didn't stop STL and COL from dealing with each other.

I think we could have offered a better package than Pitts-- and that's what DAL should be most concerned with-- making their team better.

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02-21-2011, 05:00 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Shero > Poile

Makes the hard moves, and they're usually the right moves.
Its a lot easier to make bold moves when you can spend to the cap and have the starpower they habve locked up long term. You are comparing apples to oranges (in addition to being needlessly snarky)

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02-21-2011, 05:07 PM
  #312
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Maybe. But it didn't stop STL and COL from dealing with each other.

I think we could have offered a better package than Pitts-- and that's what DAL should be most concerned with-- making their team better.
But Col has been on a franchise record losing streak and Stl are in 13th place, it's a little different.

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02-21-2011, 05:09 PM
  #313
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Maybe. But it didn't stop STL and COL from dealing with each other.

I think we could have offered a better package than Pitts-- and that's what DAL should be most concerned with-- making their team better.
Colorado? They have already acknowledged that they are sellers this deadline and do not care about making the playoffs. Can't say the same for Dallas.

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02-21-2011, 05:20 PM
  #314
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But Col has been on a franchise record losing streak and Stl are in 13th place, it's a little different.
Maybe this year. But, for all the young talent in that trade, they will be fighting each other year in and year out.

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02-21-2011, 05:23 PM
  #315
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Its a lot easier to make bold moves when you can spend to the cap and have the starpower they habve locked up long term. You are comparing apples to oranges (in addition to being needlessly snarky)
Shero's bold moves have paid off (gotten the team the next level). Poile's have not.

I'd take Shero over Poile for a team trying to get the next level.

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02-21-2011, 05:42 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Shero's bold moves have paid off (gotten the team the next level). Poile's have not.

I'd take Shero over Poile for a team trying to get the next level.
Pretty sure Poile would have a cup as well if he had Crosby, Malkin, and unlimited money.

Shero didn't really have to do anything for his cup. It was given to him through draft picks.

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02-21-2011, 06:05 PM
  #317
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Shero didn't really have to do anything for his cup. It was given to him through draft picks.
Bull. He fired a head coach mid-season that took the team the finals the year before. He traded one of his prized assets (Ryan Whitney) to address weakness on wings. He acquired key veterans at cheap prices, such as Hal Gil, Dupuis, Fedetenko, Cooke, Gueirn, etc. The year before, he gave up left-over assets for Hossa, a move that propelled them to Finals. He correctly identified the pieces to keep and the pieces to trade off, and the pieces to add in Free Agency.

In no way was his cup win handed to him.

And now, he does it again. Trades from area of strength to get a scoring winger... a move we've been longing for and needing for years now.

Shero gets it done, plain and simple.

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02-21-2011, 06:10 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Bull. He fired a head coach mid-season that took the team the finals the year before. He traded one of his prized assets (Ryan Whitney) to address weakness on wings. He acquired key veterans at cheap prices, such as Hal Gil, Dupuis, Fedetenko, Cooke, Gueirn, etc. The year before, he gave up left-over assets for Hossa, a move that propelled them to Finals. He correctly identified the pieces to keep and the pieces to trade off, and the pieces to add.

In no way was his cup win handed to him.

And now, he does it again. Trades from area of strength to get a scoring winger... a move we've been longing for and needing for years now.

Shero gets it done, plain and simple.

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02-21-2011, 07:51 PM
  #319
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Why not to trade Franson for AK and Weber?

Preds have D prospects, what are they going to do with them? Canned them?

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02-21-2011, 07:52 PM
  #320
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Dulzhok has a point. Shero has the boldness that Poile lacks. Poile is a top 10 GM, maybe top 5, but he is not bold. He hangs on to his assets a little too long, and he is patient too a fault (which is also probably his best greatest strength).

It is what it is.

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02-21-2011, 08:06 PM
  #321
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As someone said, Shero has deep pockets to work with. If Poile had no cap issues, don't you think he'd be adding players to the team? Do you really think the owners, if they could afford to do it, would say, Poile, why are spending almost $10 million less than everyone else, go out and spend to the limit so we can get further? Poile also never had the luxury of drafting Crosby, Malkin and Fleury with two overall number 1 picks and a number 2 overall in three consecutive seasons and picking up Staal with a number 2 overall as well. That's 4 years of picking 1 or 2 in pretty decent drafts. Shero wasn't the GM in any of those drafts and if you were being critical of the Staal pick, they could've had Toews or Backstrom instead and to be honest, how much more dominant would they have been with either of those two instead of Staal.

Poile for the money he's allotted to build a roster does a pretty decent job. People talk about hoarding his assets but two things. 1, if he keeps them and we end up with injuries, we have a chance to compete at a high level. Can you imagine where we'd be if we traded some of our d with Suter and Bouillon out, we'd have Johnson or Laakso up instead of Blum and we'll see if Blum can hang tomorrow night. When SOB is gone after this year, which will probably happen, we have a built in replacement. We bring guys along that can fill in to our system and do it pretty well. 2, when we do trade assets, people complain about what we do. We gave up too much to get Fisher. The Forsberg trade didn't work out. We gave up a first for Witt. Some trades are going to work out and some won't, you just never know. So for all the people that clamor for moves, you have to take the good with the bad when that happens.

While on the surface it appears we could've nabbed Neal from Dallas for Franson but AG is a more proven player at this point in his career. And we certainly wouldn't have nabbed Niskanen as well in that deal so we would've had two holes to fill, Suter and Franson in addition to Bouillon being out. Now I don't know about anyone else but that's half our d corp that has played pretty well for us this year. So then we end up bringing up Blum and Josi to play third pair? I love the potential of those two but not sure I'm willing to throw them into the mix when it comes to a playoff hunt.

Also, at some point, Shero's list of players/draft picks he has the ability to trade, is going to run dry. You can already see the depth issues they're having with the injuries they've had. While they've won, and Shero's done a great job, we're comparing apples and oranges between the two franchises. I'd love to see what Poile can do with the ability to spend to the cap limit.

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02-21-2011, 08:20 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Bull. He fired a head coach mid-season that took the team the finals the year before. He traded one of his prized assets (Ryan Whitney) to address weakness on wings. He acquired key veterans at cheap prices, such as Hal Gil, Dupuis, Fedetenko, Cooke, Gueirn, etc. The year before, he gave up left-over assets for Hossa, a move that propelled them to Finals. He correctly identified the pieces to keep and the pieces to trade off, and the pieces to add in Free Agency.

In no way was his cup win handed to him.

And now, he does it again. Trades from area of strength to get a scoring winger... a move we've been longing for and needing for years now.

Shero gets it done, plain and simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
As someone said, Shero has deep pockets to work with. If Poile had no cap issues, don't you think he'd be adding players to the team? Do you really think the owners, if they could afford to do it, would say, Poile, why are spending almost $10 million less than everyone else, go out and spend to the limit so we can get further? Poile also never had the luxury of drafting Crosby, Malkin and Fleury with two overall number 1 picks and a number 2 overall in three consecutive seasons and picking up Staal with a number 2 overall as well. That's 4 years of picking 1 or 2 in pretty decent drafts. Shero wasn't the GM in any of those drafts and if you were being critical of the Staal pick, they could've had Toews or Backstrom instead and to be honest, how much more dominant would they have been with either of those two instead of Staal.

Poile for the money he's allotted to build a roster does a pretty decent job. People talk about hoarding his assets but two things. 1, if he keeps them and we end up with injuries, we have a chance to compete at a high level. Can you imagine where we'd be if we traded some of our d with Suter and Bouillon out, we'd have Johnson or Laakso up instead of Blum and we'll see if Blum can hang tomorrow night. When SOB is gone after this year, which will probably happen, we have a built in replacement. We bring guys along that can fill in to our system and do it pretty well. 2, when we do trade assets, people complain about what we do. We gave up too much to get Fisher. The Forsberg trade didn't work out. We gave up a first for Witt. Some trades are going to work out and some won't, you just never know. So for all the people that clamor for moves, you have to take the good with the bad when that happens.

While on the surface it appears we could've nabbed Neal from Dallas for Franson but AG is a more proven player at this point in his career. And we certainly wouldn't have nabbed Niskanen as well in that deal so we would've had two holes to fill, Suter and Franson in addition to Bouillon being out. Now I don't know about anyone else but that's half our d corp that has played pretty well for us this year. So then we end up bringing up Blum and Josi to play third pair? I love the potential of those two but not sure I'm willing to throw them into the mix when it comes to a playoff hunt.

Also, at some point, Shero's list of players/draft picks he has the ability to trade, is going to run dry. You can already see the depth issues they're having with the injuries they've had. While they've won, and Shero's done a great job, we're comparing apples and oranges between the two franchises. I'd love to see what Poile can do with the ability to spend to the cap limit.
There's truth to both sides of this.

Poile does hold on to his assets to the point that he does not get as much as he might get. I'm not talking draft picks, I'm talking player assets.

Glenn's also correct in that Poile needs to retain many of those assets longer than most GMs.

It's a fine line to walk, but one that Poile tends to significantly short of actually crossing.

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02-21-2011, 09:23 PM
  #323
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Bull. He fired a head coach mid-season that took the team the finals the year before. He traded one of his prized assets (Ryan Whitney) to address weakness on wings. He acquired key veterans at cheap prices, such as Hal Gil, Dupuis, Fedetenko, Cooke, Gueirn, etc. The year before, he gave up left-over assets for Hossa, a move that propelled them to Finals. He correctly identified the pieces to keep and the pieces to trade off, and the pieces to add in Free Agency.

In no way was his cup win handed to him.

And now, he does it again. Trades from area of strength to get a scoring winger... a move we've been longing for and needing for years now.

Shero gets it done, plain and simple.
So he acquired some 3rd and 4th liners? Yes, the Whitney deal was decent. No the Hossa deal wasn't (most Pens fans agree that he was useless in their cup run). The Gill move was a very good move though.

Like I said, the Pens don't do squat without Crosby. He was given one of the best cores in the league to build upon. All he had to do was add some complementary players.

I'm not trying to bash Shero at all here. He's an excellent GM. I just don't see how he is some god.

You say we are needing to trade from an area of strength... what is that strength? It's not defense. If anything, we need to be adding another dman.

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02-21-2011, 09:56 PM
  #324
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So he acquired some 3rd and 4th liners? Yes, the Whitney deal was decent. No the Hossa deal wasn't (most Pens fans agree that he was useless in their cup run).
Seriously? Hossa scored 26 points in 20 games in their Cup Run. If you call that useless, what do you call any player on our team?

Shero has the boldness and creativity that Poile lacks. He's not afraid to trade a key player if he thinks it's going to make the team better. He gets vets for fairly cheap. Heck, he's not even afraid to fire a coach that took a team in the Cup Finals the year before.

He's bold and he's usually right.

There's no use in comparing the Poile/Shero track records because it isn't even close. Shero has more playoff wins in 4 years than Poile does in 27 years.

Yes, there are different factors in play, but I think Shero is possibly the best GM in hockey, with this trading being a huge example of that. Between him and Holland, IMO.


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02-21-2011, 10:14 PM
  #325
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I give the edge to Holland. The wings have been consistent for almost 2 decades and are always a contender. When was the last time they had a top ten pick?

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