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Old
02-21-2011, 05:47 PM
  #76
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We don't need to pick up every single player that goes on waivers. Usually, there's a good reason why they're on waivers.

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Old
02-21-2011, 05:52 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
Why does he need to be top 6? Is he awful defensively? I don't think so, he's always seemed like a hard worked to me too.
At 3 million a year, 90 percent of that value comes from his bread making skill set. He is a highly skilled offensive player. Much like Robert Nilsson was. He does not play a physical, two-way checking style of game. Therefore is not useful in the bottom six. Oh yeah, he's a smurf too.

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02-21-2011, 05:52 PM
  #78
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Pick up Hagman.

I believe he has only one more year at 3 mill. If he turns out good then sign him. If he doesn't then let him walk. No harm done IMO.

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02-21-2011, 05:59 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
Fair points, and no I wouldn't give him 3.0mil. Based on his last 3 years he deserves maybe 2.0, 2.5 tops. This year he's been worth 1.0 to 1.5 but mostly because of his diminished role. So say he's worth somewhere around 1.5-2.2mil. Not the end of the world. You give up nothing, you have an asset you can potentially flip for a pick at the deadline and you have some experience in the lineup.
True, except that you're stuck with his contract for next year. By picking him up you're either a) denying an opportunity for a prospect next season in the bottom six winger position or b) stuck with paying his contract if no one picks him on waivers.

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Saying the Oilers can't fit him in when you have JFJ and SMac in the lineup is about the least convincing argument I can imagine.
Saying that Hagman is better than JFJ and Smac is actually the least convincing argument that I can imagine. I'm proposing a lineup that doesn't include JFJ, Smac or Hagman on even the 4th line. Currently our 4th line is Jacques - Reddox - Jones. replace Jacques with Lander or O'marra or Hartikainen or Macdonald and there is no need for Hagman (or JFJ, or SMac), next season I mean.

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Oilers have cap space to burn, with few good UFAs this July. And those UFAs that are half decent won't want to come to Edmonton except for an overpayment. In that light, 3.0mil isn't the worst contract in the world. You could end up saving a mil in UFA for a similar player or you could walk away empty handed and have to play JFJ again...

I would think long and hard about claiming him. The arguments against it have failed to convince me not to.
While nicely stated, your arguments have not convinced me to pick up Hagman. The only role I can see him on the Oilers is to replace Jones or Brule if the Oilers trade them, but as I said earlier, there are a number of other prospects who I would rather give the opportunity to, and prospect development is very important reason.

If Hagman was an ace Pk'er or faceoff specialist or shutdown defensiveman, then at least he addresses a need - currently he fulfills no need. As for UFA cap space, I would rather save the $3 million and save it for overpaying on another UFA that actually addresses a need. Say paying Eric Brewer $3 million to be a top 4 dman here instead for example.


Last edited by Master Lok: 02-21-2011 at 06:04 PM.
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02-21-2011, 06:03 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Epicfail888 View Post
Pick up Hagman.

I believe he has only one more year at 3 mill. If he turns out good then sign him. If he doesn't then let him walk. No harm done IMO.
one more year AFTER this year. he's signed for $3 million also from 2011-2012. If you're thinking of waiving him, don't you think at some point that Katz is going to get pissed off with paying all these players NHL money in the AHL? That's just poor management.

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02-21-2011, 06:09 PM
  #81
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What if no one takes him? Would the Flamers put him on re-entry? We'd be crazy not to take him at half price.

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02-21-2011, 06:20 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Jagermeister View Post
We don't need to pick up every single player that goes on waivers. Usually, there's a good reason why they're on waivers.
If I'm not mistaken the only waiver pick up we've grabbed that stuck is Ryan Jones, correct? I think we got Smac and maybe that headcase boulerice too but there's no risk there. I'm happy with Jones. I'm sure NYI and PHX are happy with a couple of their waiver pickups also.


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Originally Posted by Grod View Post
At 3 million a year, 90 percent of that value comes from his bread making skill set. He is a highly skilled offensive player. Much like Robert Nilsson was. He does not play a physical, two-way checking style of game. Therefore is not useful in the bottom six. Oh yeah, he's a smurf too.
One of those 210lb smurfs, cool. Maybe you're thinking of someone else.


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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
True, except that you're stuck with his contract for next year. By picking him up you're either a) denying an opportunity for a prospect next season in the bottom six winger position or b) stuck with paying his contract if no one picks him on waivers.
In the roster in my head I definitely do not promise a spot to either of Hartikainen or Lander. They can go to the AHL and earn it, or blow the doors off at camp. They DEFINITELY shouldn't show up for camp knowing there's a spot open for either of them. Competition is important and there is room for Hagman despite what people say. Not to mention that I don't want Harti or Lander playing on the big club in a fourth line role getting 8 minutes a night. They should earn 3rd line spots or develop playing top minutes in OKC.

13 forwards next October:

Hall-Gagner-Hemsky-Penner-Horcoff-Eberle-Pajaarvi-Cogliano-Omark-Jones-Reddox-x-x.
That's two empty spots, one could be filled by Hagman and the other could rotate between whatever rookie was kicking ass in OKC. Hell, I kind of hope Cogs is out the door too, assuming someone would offer a decent pick for him. Maybe I forgot someone?

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Old
02-21-2011, 06:25 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post



One of those 210lb smurfs, cool. Maybe you're thinking of someone else.

Playing style, not his physical attributes. Did it ever occur to you that Calgary didn't find him a fit for his tag so they waived him. He does not offer anything we are currently lacking. A bottom six argument is asinine if you've watched this player play. He found a home in Dallas. Only because they needed to fill a void that Neal left where in our case we aren't the least in lacking. Our wings are filled with offense. We need grit and character. Omark is scoring at a better pace for instance.

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02-21-2011, 06:25 PM
  #84
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As for Omarra, Mcdonald or even Brule, not thanks. And definitely don't gift them a roster spot, none are good enough to contribute.

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02-21-2011, 06:28 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Grod View Post
Playing style, not his physical attributes. Did it ever occur to you that Calgary didn't find him a fit for his tag so they waived him. He does not offer anything we are currently lacking. A bottom six argument is asinine if you've watched this player play.
I disagree. You called him a smurf which can only mean you thought he was small. I feel pretty comfortable saying you don't know the player. He played pk in Dallas and had 4 shorties 3 years ago, he's played all over from 1st to 4th lines around the league and he's done reasonably well. He was just a victim of the salary cap and limited roster space in Calgary. That's not to say he's a world beater but he brings experience and Ryan Jones-type offense from the bottom of the roster.

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02-21-2011, 06:33 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
I disagree. You called him a smurf which can only mean you thought he was small. I feel pretty comfortable saying you don't know the player. He played pk in Dallas and had 4 shorties 3 years ago, he's played all over from 1st to 4th lines around the league and he's done reasonably well. He was just a victim of the salary cap and limited roster space in Calgary. That's not to say he's a world beater but he brings experience and Ryan Jones-type offense from the bottom of the roster.
This. Hes a useful 2nd-3d line forward. Somebody will pick him up for free to upgrade on the wing. Phoenex, Colorado, Nashville, LA, ATL are just a few teams that come to mind.

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02-21-2011, 06:36 PM
  #87
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[QUOTE=CSimpson18;31121153]I disagree. You called him a smurf which can only mean you thought he was small. I feel pretty comfortable saying you don't know the player. He played pk in Dallas and had 4 shorties 3 years ago, he's played all over from 1st to 4th lines around the league and he's done reasonably well. He was just a victim of the salary cap and limited roster space in Calgary. That's not to say he's a world beater but he brings experience and Ryan Jones-type offense from the bottom of the roster.[/QUOTE]

Calling him a smurf was me implying that he was small in playing style or physically small. Not and, or.

I feel comfortable saying you were grabbing for straws by jumping on a useable asset and rationalizing a team need for him. Now you are too stubborn to admit that we really don't need him. He's not a bargain at 3 mill by any means. I wonder if that ever occured to you. You're rationale sames like the same one that got Sutter fired.

He's closing in on a half a hit of game. Exactly like Jones without the physical, high energy aspect.

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02-21-2011, 06:37 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
This. Hes a useful 2nd-3d line forward. Somebody will pick him up for free to upgrade on the wing. Phoenex, Colorado, Nashville, LA, ATL are just a few teams that come to mind.
Dallas actually.

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02-21-2011, 06:38 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by tiger_80 View Post
This. Hes a useful 2nd-3d line forward. Somebody will pick him up for free to upgrade on the wing. Phoenex, Colorado, Nashville, LA, ATL are just a few teams that come to mind.
And that's fine..He'll be a good fit for a playoff bound team. The Oilers have no need or use for him at the moment. In 3 years we'll probably be in the position where we'd want to add another veteran piece but not now..

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02-21-2011, 07:14 PM
  #90
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[QUOTE=Grod;31121347]
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
I disagree. You called him a smurf which can only mean you thought he was small. I feel pretty comfortable saying you don't know the player. He played pk in Dallas and had 4 shorties 3 years ago, he's played all over from 1st to 4th lines around the league and he's done reasonably well. He was just a victim of the salary cap and limited roster space in Calgary. That's not to say he's a world beater but he brings experience and Ryan Jones-type offense from the bottom of the roster.[/QUOTE]

Calling him a smurf was me implying that he was small in playing style or physically small. Not and, or.

I feel comfortable saying you were grabbing for straws by jumping on a useable asset and rationalizing a team need for him. Now you are too stubborn to admit that we really don't need him. He's not a bargain at 3 mill by any means. I wonder if that ever occured to you. You're rationale sames like the same one that got Sutter fired.

He's closing in on a half a hit of game. Exactly like Jones without the physical, high energy aspect.

Rationalizing a team need? I think the word you're looking for is "recognizing". JFJ and SMac, nuf said.

I'd prefer a guy like David Clarkson, a NJD fan asked about a Cogs-Clarkson swap. If we could pull something like that off Hagman would not be necessary.

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Old
02-21-2011, 07:25 PM
  #91
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[QUOTE=CSimpson18;31122484]
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Originally Posted by Grod View Post


Rationalizing a team need? I think the word you're looking for is "recognizing". JFJ and SMac, nuf said.

I'd prefer a guy like David Clarkson, a NJD fan asked about a Cogs-Clarkson swap. If we could pull something like that off Hagman would not be necessary.
Clarkson would be recognizing a team need that from my perspective isn't as imminent as you seem to suggest. What exactly would an addition of a 3 million dollar skilled winger with limited offensive upside, streaky play and a somewhat withdrawn physical game do for our current place. Occupy a roster spot that is better off being occupied by a younger cheaper version of himself with potential.

I don't view Hagman to having very usable bottom six potential. Argue you all you will in Hagmans defense. I have seen him play enough to know we are not in need of his ilk but should solely focus on developing our own. One's that do add an element of physicality to our team. How on earth can you begin to argue that Hagman brings a high energy physical game like Jones?! Beyond me. His stick skills stand out to me. He protects the puck well with his size. But these being the proponents of his game and having watched him play view him ineffective and a temporary fix.

Adding salary without a long term solution is one thing but if you swap salaries and improve in a category we are so painfully lacking were making head-way.


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02-21-2011, 07:30 PM
  #92
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Yes let's add a guy who can score possibly twenty a season, but is so invisible that nobody will notice him.

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02-21-2011, 07:41 PM
  #93
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Penner - Horcoff - Hemsky
Paajarvi - Gagner - Omark
Hall - Cogliano - Eberle

For the fourth line we have: Brule, Reddox, JFJ, Jones, SMac, and you wanna get Hagman too? Nah.
Well, JFJ and Smack are useless and their is a thing called injuries. Believe it or not Edmonton is even prone to these pesky little things.

I am not saying that I am in favor of picking him up. I dont see how he could help this season, but if he has a decent year next year he could easily be flipped at the deadline for an overpaying team willing to give up a first.

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02-21-2011, 07:45 PM
  #94
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Well, JFJ and Smack are useless and their is a thing called injuries. Believe it or not Edmonton is even prone to these pesky little things.

I am not saying that I am in favor of picking him up. I dont see how he could help this season, but if he has a decent year next year he could easily be flipped at the deadline for an overpaying team willing to give up a first.
In that case let's pick up every skilled player that comes across the waiver wire.

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02-21-2011, 07:45 PM
  #95
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Ugh. Well, here we go.

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What exactly would an addition of a 3 million dollar skilled winger with limited offensive upside, streaky play and a somewhat withdrawn physical game do for our current place. Occupy a roster spot that is better off being occupied by a younger cheaper version of himself with potential.
Gives the team experience. It seems you want all youth in our bottom 6. I want a vet. We're going to need at least one new player to replace JFJ or SMac(I hope), we don't have guys ready to step in out of camp. Do you want Lander and Hartikainen to come to camp with a spot waiting for them? Internal competition is a good thing. Hamilton need at least a year in OKC. Also Hagman could fill in in the top 6 in case of injuries.

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How on earth can you begin to argue that Hagman brings a high energy physical game like Jones?! Beyond me.
Not sure. You show me where I began to argue that and then we'll talk.

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But these being the proponents of his game and having watched him play view him ineffective and a temporary fix.
That's the worst sentence in the history of the language. I'm sorry if you aren't a native english speaker. If you are, well, I'm still sorry...

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Adding salary without a long term solution is one thing but if you swap salaries and improve in a category we are so painfully lacking were making head-way.
What do you mean by long term solution? He's got one year after this. Oilers have boatloads of cap space and theres no very appealing UFAs to spend it on. We are painfully lacking in veteran presence, so I think that's something Hagman would address. I know its not ideal but he's actually a pretty decent player and quite versatile.

Let me stress that he would NOT steal a roster spot from any of our young guys. If you want to argue that with me show me what you think the roster will look like next October, then we can talk.

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02-21-2011, 07:53 PM
  #96
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Ugh. Well, here we go.



Gives the team experience. It seems you want all youth in our bottom 6. I want a vet. We're going to need at least one new player to replace JFJ or SMac(I hope), we don't have guys ready to step in out of camp. Do you want Lander and Hartikainen to come to camp with a spot waiting for them? Internal competition is a good thing. Hamilton need at least a year in OKC. Also Hagman could fill in in the top 6 in case of injuries.



Not sure. You show me where I began to argue that and then we'll talk.



That's the worst sentence in the history of the language. I'm sorry if you aren't a native english speaker. If you are, well, I'm still sorry...



What do you mean by long term solution? He's got one year after this. Oilers have boatloads of cap space and theres no very appealing UFAs to spend it on. We are painfully lacking in veteran presence, so I think that's something Hagman would address. I know its not ideal but he's actually a pretty decent player and quite versatile.

Let me stress that he would NOT steal a roster spot from any of our young guys. If you want to argue that with me show me what you think the roster will look like next October, then we can talk.
You compared his impact to Jones' offensive contribution. Why? Because they have similar stat lines but vastly different playing styles. Hagman is a vet with worldly skill. He is great at performing the dissappearing act. 3 million to add a veteran presence? Okay Darryl.

As for the english comment. Keep the personal attacks to yourself. There's such a thing as reading comprehension. Let's leave it at that.

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02-21-2011, 07:57 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Grod View Post
You compared his impact to Jones' offensive contribution. Why? Because they have similar stat lines but vastly different playing styles. Hagman is a vet with worldly skill. He is great at performing the dissappearing act.

As for the english comment. Keep the personal attacks to yourself. There's such a thing as reading comprehension. Let's leave it at that.
I said he could bring Jones-like offense from the bottom of the roster. As in a 3rd/4th liner that could pot some goals. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. He had 69 goals in the three seasons previous to this.

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02-21-2011, 08:00 PM
  #98
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Thankfully by tomorrow, 10AM, we won't have to talk about this anymore and this thread will be nothing but a distant memory.

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02-21-2011, 08:01 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
Ugh. Well, here we go.



Gives the team experience. It seems you want all youth in our bottom 6. I want a vet. We're going to need at least one new player to replace JFJ or SMac(I hope), we don't have guys ready to step in out of camp. Do you want Lander and Hartikainen to come to camp with a spot waiting for them? Internal competition is a good thing. Hamilton need at least a year in OKC. Also Hagman could fill in in the top 6 in case of injuries.



Not sure. You show me where I began to argue that and then we'll talk.



That's the worst sentence in the history of the language. I'm sorry if you aren't a native english speaker. If you are, well, I'm still sorry...



What do you mean by long term solution? He's got one year after this. Oilers have boatloads of cap space and theres no very appealing UFAs to spend it on. We are painfully lacking in veteran presence, so I think that's something Hagman would address. I know its not ideal but he's actually a pretty decent player and quite versatile.

Let me stress that he would NOT steal a roster spot from any of our young guys. If you want to argue that with me show me what you think the roster will look like next October, then we can talk.
How about wait till Jly 1ST. there'll be a few more out there than Hagmann.

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02-21-2011, 08:03 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
I said he could bring Jones-like offense from the bottom of the roster. As in a 3rd/4th liner that could pot some goals. Seems perfectly reasonable to me. He had 69 goals in the three seasons previous to this.
Adding offense without a physical or aggressive style continues to make this team redundant. Clarkson is an example of what we need and comparable to Jones. Not Hagman. He brings Jones like offense without the upside we need in his character and physical play. In addition to the relentless work ethic and great attitude. At the price of 3 mill no less. But wait, we have a ton of cap space so let's use it without helping the team long term. Jones makes $975,000. If we can add another one of him by all means lets take a look at it. Even for 2 million it's something considerable. As long as he brings the other elements I noted.

We have cap space so let's occupy it with one-dimensional veteran offensive players. That sounds like a rationalization to me. Having cap space doesn't mean you need to find a way to occupy it.

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