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02-21-2011, 05:39 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
When Redden, Drury, and Rozy were the targets, everyone (almost) piled on. When it's Avery, some folks all of a sudden don't think it's "fair". Hey, we have one thread dedicated to the suckiness of Redden as a pinned entity. But Avery has "excuses" for his bad play.

My favorite comment in the thread so far, is that fans that watch the game can see that Avery is playing well, presuming that those of us who aren't happy with him are just reading box scores. Priceless.
There are degrees of piling on here. When you have a d-man such as Redden being paid $6.5 mil per to be a No. 1 d-man and is having a hard time even holding his own as a bottom pairing guy it means for one thing that the team is financially stymied from getting another player who can truly fill the No. 1 d-man role which in effect for the Rangers was compounded by a $7 mil per year center who can't even fill a 4th line center position this year. Avery has not been playing very well but he's still NHL caliber--he can still put up some points--has always been a third liner who could move up to top 6 in a crunch--maybe not so much now. Avery is overpaid but the cap hit on the Rangers of $2 mil is not something that stops the team from pursuing other options because it does not create nearly as huge a hole as $6.5 and $7 mil + contracts do and the fact of the matter is the Rangers are paying all those contracts and Avery is a better player than both Drury and Redden and costing the team a lot less. So maybe you think Drury and Redden are capable of more than cashing their checks?

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02-21-2011, 05:44 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
So your definition of "he sucks" is that he's producing at a 3rd/4th liner production level?

Funny, because that's what he is.

Again, my point remains the same that the people who criticize him hold him to unrealistic expectations.

If there were any other explanation it would be obvious.

What's annoying is the people who apply the general statements of random people and then use them to further their argument against a poster who never stated anything. It makes these conversations impossible to have.

My point all along has been that Avery is a solid 3rd/4th line role player. And he's done nothing this year to change that.

Has he been the same guy that we knew when he came here? Not at all. But again, the reasons why are obvious.

It is what it is. There's people who love Avery and people who hate him. But the people who hold him to higher production standards and then rip him for it are just clueless.
Similarly to how you have written:

Show me where I have asked for more production from Avery.

The evidence is on the ice, in the way he plays the game. You admit that he is nothing like the player that some loved at one time. No matter the reason he is no longer that player. At this level of competency he adds nothing to the team.

In my opinion, the clueless are the ones who think he is the same player he was a few years ago. Without his irritating on-ice behavior he is near useless. And if that is what he has become, he shouldn't be here anymore.

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02-21-2011, 05:50 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Similarly to how you have written:

Show me where I have asked for more production from Avery.

The evidence is on the ice, in the way he plays the game. You admit that he is nothing like the player that some loved at one time. No matter the reason he is no longer that player. At this level of competency he adds nothing to the team.

In my opinion, the clueless are the ones who think he is the same player he was a few years ago. Without his irritating on-ice behavior he is near useless. And if that is what he has become, he shouldn't be here anymore.


Because unless you're arguing production there's no way anyone can criticize his effort, board play, forechecking, and everything else you ask of from a bottom six player.

There's no doubt he isn't agitating but we've all gone over the reasons for that.

So unless you're arguing production there's nothing to argue about him. And again, with that said, his production is on par for the player that he is, and is nothing to get bent out of shape about.

A producing points at their career average rates? Heavens no.

And for Tawnos from early, you're really trying to argue over 6 points? That's your argument for him not producing at his career pace? He's a 30 point player. Live with it. That's what he is and always has been and is again.

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02-21-2011, 06:01 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Similarly to how you have written:

Show me where I have asked for more production from Avery.

The evidence is on the ice, in the way he plays the game. You admit that he is nothing like the player that some loved at one time. No matter the reason he is no longer that player. At this level of competency he adds nothing to the team.

In my opinion, the clueless are the ones who think he is the same player he was a few years ago. Without his irritating on-ice behavior he is near useless. And if that is what he has become, he shouldn't be here anymore.
this is it exactly. he's just a generic player now and is a zero factor in the lineup. the sooner he is gone the better so that he can play dress up.

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02-21-2011, 06:02 PM
  #80
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With the money going into Redden/Drury we can buy seven Sean Averys or fourteen Erik Christensens. EC and especially Avery are performing below expectations, but I bet every team has slightly overpaid presentable roster players. Not every team has fourteen million dollars a year tied into a black hole.

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02-21-2011, 06:06 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
this is it exactly. he's just a generic player now and is a zero factor in the lineup. the sooner he is gone the better so that he can play dress up.
He's a generic player....like every other 3rd/4th liner in the league?

You want Dale Weise up here? Be my guest.

See if you get 30 points out of him.

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02-21-2011, 07:31 PM
  #82
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avery is an easy target for fans that know nothing to ***** about.

the whole team sucks right now and reading through this thread you would think avery is supposed to put up gaborik like numbers.

hes not going to aggitate anymore because of torts, so get over it. every player could be playing better including avery. but to think that his lack of aggitating or production (which is fine for avery) makes him worthless is just stupid.

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02-21-2011, 07:39 PM
  #83
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I've not seen one person complain about his point totals, yet quite a few who rush to Avery's defense accuses people of expecting absurd production out of him... You missed it... It's about game to game consistency from Sean and him playing to his strengths... If you think he has to run around like an out of control maniac out there to agitate, you're wrong... He can do so within the rules and he's done so in the past... How about returning to a strong forecheck, finishing his checks hard, and driving to the net to draw attention in front after the whistle and maybe draw something? When was the last time he threw a monster hit or got any player off their game? Coach doesn't know which Avery is going to show up on any given night, and that's why you see him all over the line-up. I don't know how to explain his inability to score goals this season... His shooting percentage has never been this low.

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02-21-2011, 07:50 PM
  #84
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wolf nailed it. the complaint with Avery isn't his pt production, it's his role has agitator which he either has been told to downplay, or one that he simply cannot channel effectively on a consistent basis.

where are the hits? the agitation? the driving to the net? totally gone. It's so glaring how can you not see it? it's like he's been cloned out there. NY living too much of an allure for a guy like him.
his head is elsewhere.

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02-21-2011, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
I've not seen one person complain about his point totals, yet quite a few who rush to Avery's defense accuses people of expecting absurd production out of him... You missed it... It's about game to game consistency from Sean and him playing to his strengths... If you think he has to run around like an out of control maniac out there to agitate, you're wrong... He can do so within the rules and he's done so in the past... How about returning to a strong forecheck, finishing his checks hard, and driving to the net to draw attention in front after the whistle and maybe draw something? When was the last time he threw a monster hit or got any player off their game? Coach doesn't know which Avery is going to show up on any given night, and that's why you see him all over the line-up.
didnt he draw 2 high stick penalties in back to back shifts a week ago?

the second he does anything he gets called for something. plain and simple. he cant be the avery you want him to be. if the refs dont get him, torts will.

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02-21-2011, 08:05 PM
  #86
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What amazes me most about any Avery debate is the level of emotion it brings considering hes really just an inconsequential player. For almost 2 seasons now, he hasnt necessarily contributed to the successes or failures of this team - hes just kind of there. Its actually crazy that this kind of player produces such spirited debate.

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02-21-2011, 08:16 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
I've not seen one person complain about his point totals, yet quite a few who rush to Avery's defense accuses people of expecting absurd production out of him... You missed it... It's about game to game consistency from Sean and him playing to his strengths... If you think he has to run around like an out of control maniac out there to agitate, you're wrong... He can do so within the rules and he's done so in the past... How about returning to a strong forecheck, finishing his checks hard, and driving to the net to draw attention in front after the whistle and maybe draw something? When was the last time he threw a monster hit or got any player off their game? Coach doesn't know which Avery is going to show up on any given night, and that's why you see him all over the line-up. I don't know how to explain his inability to score goals this season... His shooting percentage has never been this low.

I agree with you about him running around like a maniac but the rest of what you're saying you're missing my points on them.

I think he's done an overall solid job this season forechecking, finishing checks, and setting up plays and controlling the puck in the offensive zone.

To answer your question about him going to the net, he isn't able to anymore. Haven't we seen enough ticky tack calls on Avery, refusals from the coach (who hates him) on speaking on BS calls to the media about Sean because he knows he'll just get fined, to understand that he can't go to the top of the crease because any goalie who comes out of the blue and touches him will draw a penalty?

Again, he can't agitate like he used to. He's being singled out by this league since his ban. Whether or not any of us think that's fair isn't relevant. It is what it is. I'm not sure why you and others can't just accept the fact that he isn't able to do that anymore. When he does he is penalized and then everyone flips out about him hurting the team, including the coach who benches him for it.

"Coach doesn't know which Avery is going to show up on any given night, and that's why you see him all over the line-up."

Not one bit. Torts switches lines no matter what. You think that will change when Avery is off this team?

Torts puts Avery over his head because a lot of time his play in his role warrants that.

How many times have you seen Brandon Prust skating alongside Marian Gaborik on a line?

Exactly.


His goal scoring has been poor this year, but I think it's pretty obvious as to why. The majority of his goals in the past have been rebounds and from in front of the net. He isn't able to go there anymore because defenseman are allowed to crush him in front of the net and if he gets anywhere near a goaltender he gets called for a penalty.

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02-21-2011, 08:17 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
What amazes me most about any Avery debate is the level of emotion it brings considering hes really just an inconsequential player. For almost 2 seasons now, he hasnt necessarily contributed to the successes or failures of this team - hes just kind of there. Its actually crazy that this kind of player produces such spirited debate.
I guess because he was the saving grace 3 years ago who brought physical play, energy, and intensity to a roster that was hugely devoid of it... Now we have a completely different roster, one that is much more physical and grittier than it was in the past, and Avery is no longer the center of attention and he looks a bit loss and disinterested among the fray. I guess once a fan favorite, always a fan favorite... I guess Sean doesn't want to adjust to the increased attention from the officials, or play within the confines of the rules. It's a shame, because when he was focused on playing hockey, he could really contribute to a game, whether he registered a point or not, he would be out there making hits and driving to the net and jamming away at loose pucks... But now, on most nights, his play is more or less as you said 'inconsequential'...

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02-21-2011, 08:31 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
I guess Sean doesn't want to adjust to the increased attention from the officials, or play within the confines of the rules. It's a shame, because when he was focused on playing hockey, he could really contribute to a game, whether he registered a point or not, he would be out there making hits and driving to the net and jamming away at loose pucks...
To be fair, I think you're being a little hypocritical here. You're criticizing him for not wanting to play within the confines of the rules while acknowledging immediately before that that he's being unfairly treated by the officials?

He shouldn't have to learn arbitrary rules that have no definition and only apply to him.

No matter what an official thinks of him on the ice the penalty/non penalty stuff needs to stay the same.

If they want to give him less leeway as far as backtalk and slap him with unsportsmanlike conduct (which we've also seen) then I understand and I would expect Sean to shut his mouth.

And how can you knock him for not being focused? I think he's shown up most games, he just hasn't potted as many goals.

He HAS hit, he HAS forechecked well, he HAS controlled the puck in the offensive zone and set up scoring chances.

He has not as you've said gone to the net. I'll give you that. But as I said I think it's a byproduct of all the calls we've seen against him It's not hard to put 2 + 2 together.

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02-21-2011, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by robruckus View Post
And for Tawnos from early, you're really trying to argue over 6 points? That's your argument for him not producing at his career pace? He's a 30 point player. Live with it. That's what he is and always has been and is again.
That point led into the goals point, which you conveniently ignored. The other point to what I said? If you're going to be so in your face and inflammatory about your opinions, you better at least have your facts right. You don't. Besides, post-lockout Avery:

05-06: 0.52 PPG/0.20 GPG
06-07: 0.57 PPG/0.21 GPG
07-08: 0.58 PPG/0.26 GPG
08-09: 0.54 PPG/0.20 GPG
09-10: 0.45 PPG/0.16 GPG
10-11: 0.34 PPG/0.03 GPG (so far)

Over the course of two years, you've seen a drop in Avery's PPG production by 37% after a relatively consistent 4 year stretch. He is not having the same year as his career average (which happens to be 0.45 PPG and 0.17 GPG prior to this year). Not even close. Hell, his goal output has dropped by 81% from last year, which was already the lowest output since before the lockout. I bet if you looked at his average ice time, it's dropped significantly as well, although I doubt it's as much as 37% and certainly nowhere near 81%. Whatever the motivation behind that on Tortorella's part, it's still true.


Last edited by Tawnos: 02-21-2011 at 08:40 PM.
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02-21-2011, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
That point led into the goals point, which you conveniently ignored. The other point to what I said? If you're going to be so in your face and inflammatory about your opinions, you better at least have your facts right. You don't. Besides, post-lockout Avery:

05-06: 0.52 PPG/0.20 GPG
06-07: 0.57 PPG/0.21 GPG
07-08: 0.58 PPG/0.26 GPG
08-09: 0.54 PPG/0.20 GPG
09-10: 0.45 PPG/0.16 GPG
10-11: 0.34 PPG/0.03 GPG (so far)

Over the course of two years, you've seen a drop in Avery's PPG production by 37% after a relatively consistent 4 year stretch. He is not having the same year as his career average. Not even close. Hell, his goal output has dropped by 81% from last year. I bet if you looked at his average ice time, it's dropped significantly as well, although I doubt it's as much as 37% and certainly nowhere near 81%. Whatever the motivation behind that on Tortorella's part, it's still true.

So you say at the end you bet his average ice time has dropped, yet don't understand why his ppg total has?

If he finishes with 25 points this year, it's really going to crush you?

His great year was when he came here and finished with 48 for the year.

Other than that? 28, 39, 33, 31, and 21.

Am I going to sit here and argue he's had a great season? No. But I'm also not upset or surprised if he finishes the year with around 25 points.

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02-21-2011, 08:48 PM
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So you say at the end you bet his average ice time has dropped, yet don't understand why his ppg total has?

If he finishes with 25 points this year, it's really going to crush you?

His great year was when he came here and finished with 48 for the year.

Other than that? 28, 39, 33, 31, and 21.

Am I going to sit here and argue he's had a great season? No. But I'm also not upset or surprised if he finishes the year with around 25 points.
I never said I had any illusions as to why his point total has dropped significantly. Ice time is clearly a large factor in that. But you're arguing that they haven't dropped, when they clearly have. The last time he played over 70 games and had less than 35 points was 7 years ago.

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02-21-2011, 08:58 PM
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I never said I had any illusions as to why his point total has dropped significantly. Ice time is clearly a large factor in that. But you're arguing that they haven't dropped, when they clearly have. The last time he played over 70 games and had less than 35 points was 7 years ago.
I guess where I'm standing up for him is that I think he's played well, regardless of the stat sheet.

If people want to bring up a 3rd/4th liners point production as a huge criticism when it's really not terribly off of what you should expect is not something I understand.

He hasn't had his 10 goals like he normally does but I've said it's because he can't go to the front of the net. He's still done a good job forechecking and controlling the puck and playing physical.

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02-21-2011, 09:04 PM
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I guess where I'm standing up for him is that I think he's played well, regardless of the stat sheet.

If people want to bring up a 3rd/4th liners point production as a huge criticism when it's really not terribly off of what you should expect is not something I understand.

He hasn't had his 10 goals like he normally does but I've said it's because he can't go to the front of the net. He's still done a good job forechecking and controlling the puck and playing physical.
See, this is where a lot of people, including myself are disagreeing with you. Controlling the puck in the corners and forechecking are wonderful things. Marcel Hossa was particularly good at them. But just like with Hossa, if nothing happens from all this puck control and forecheck, then how is this playing well or even a benefit to the team? The purpose of the forecheck is to make something happen, not take seconds off the clock. If you never, ever, get to the front of the net, you never really build momentum. Your grinders who can't hit twine still have to create chances. Something has to happen on the ice. He has good shifts here and there, but they're more the rarity than the usual.

Besides, the refs are no harder on him this year than they ever have been in the past few years, so why can he suddenly not go to the front of the net now?

And still, his production is 60% of what we've come to expect out of Avery. How is that not "terribly off"?

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02-21-2011, 09:10 PM
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Sean is one of the most complicated players on the team. He often seems conflicted as to what he wants to do or be. I sometimes thinks it has nothing to do with Torts or the refs; it has to do with Sean and how he sees himself. When he sees himself as a hockey player he is focused and intense. When he is distracted by off ice stuff, including how he sees himself when his contract has run its course-nobody else will resign him, the Rangers probably won't offer him another contract and he likely doesn't want to go anywhere else-his play is unfocused and ineffective. Off ice stuff is all the other things we hear and read about him. But he has been a hockey player all his life; it has gotten him where he is, it's at the core of his identity. I could go on and on playing amateur psychologist but you see what I mean. He is totally different from every other player on the team, maybe in the league. It must drive Torts and everyone else crazy. He can't be motivated like other players, can't be counted on. But then he turns in a top notch game and helps the team win. I know some of you think this is garbage and if he can't produce then bench him or get rid of him. You may be right. He is maddening.

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02-21-2011, 09:42 PM
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If you never, ever, get to the front of the net, you never really build momentum. Your grinders who can't hit twine still have to create chances. Something has to happen on the ice. He has good shifts here and there, but they're more the rarity than the usual.

Besides, the refs are no harder on him this year than they ever have been in the past few years, so why can he suddenly not go to the front of the net now?

And still, his production is 60% of what we've come to expect out of Avery. How is that not "terribly off"?
Exactly...

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