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Past Kings Draft, Trade, Free Agent Signing Discussion

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Old
02-22-2011, 02:18 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
The hole at LW is costing the Kings more? Do they lose prospects if someone isn't there? Do they lose a game or two because of it, yea, of course, is it worth risking the future of the organization, not a chance.
Yeah the hole at LW is costing them more.

To start the season, people had predicted the Kings to take the next step and get to the second round or further. They have regressed.

So what is that LW hole costing them? Winning. A run at the Cup. Can you put a price on that?

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02-22-2011, 02:19 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
Detroit was smart enough to draft Lidstrom, one of the best defensemen of all time. Any comparisons to the Kings and how they should build their organization stop right there. NHL players are not stocks and bonds, there is no one way to build a winner. Did Detroit rely on 2 good, young goaltenders for years or did they bring in veteran goalie afer veteran goalie based on need? How does that compare in any way to what the Kings are doing? Brett Hull, Igor Larionov, Luc, Paul Coffey, there is a long list of future HOF players Detroit brought in not only to help the team win but to teach the kids how to be NHL players on and off the ice. The Kings are not even close to copying Detroit's method in any way!
Building for the long haul instead of a short window? Letting the kids develop instead of rushing them? Detroit took a while to get to the point where they are. Them being able to add players didnt happen overnight.

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02-22-2011, 02:19 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
I cautiously agree. We don't know what the cost is on Semin is, assuming he is available. I think I'd be willing to pay a lot for him though, starting with Voynov/Hickey and adding any forward they want outside of Schenn and Kopitar. We can go from there.
If Semin could be had for Voynov/Hickey + a forward, he would be King already. Pretty sure the asking price would be more like Williams + Schenn + 1st.

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02-22-2011, 02:19 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Signing Gaborik or Havlat was risking the future of the organization?

Signing Cammalleri to a 5/25 deal was risking the future of the organization?

Once again, you keep giving reasons not to sign or trade for these players. Every signing or trade comes with a risk, who is going to fill these holes for the Kings. There is not a blue chip prospect in the system to fill the Kings hole on the LW.
I agree. Even Gretzky had risks when LA traded for him. Every player has risks.

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02-22-2011, 02:20 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
How is that risky though? There was no risk in bringing in Hasek when you had Joseph or Osgood behind him, How is bringing in Hull, Larionov, Luc, Coffey, risky when you have the core of Federov, Fetisov, Lidstrom, Shanahan, etc?

The guy said that risk-adverse people don't make it big in the NHL, I am asking him, what risks have Detroit taken?
The Kings are nowhere near being in the position Detroit has been in for 20 years. It started with Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom and continued with Datsuyk and Zetterberg. They have been able to simply cherry pick future hall of famers with their incredible draft choices to keep rolling like a machine. Have the Kings drafted anybody like Yzerman or Lidstrom? No. Therefore, Dean Lombardi is not in the same position as a Detroit GM. Does he need to get ripped off? No. He's taken enough gambles and lost on players like Rob Blake, Cloutier, etc.. As a King fan I expect the GM to do his job and improve the team every day of the year. I'm a fan, not an accountant, I want the team to win. It's his job to figure out how to accomplish that and my job is to cook up some mac n cheese and watch the Kings on TV.

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02-22-2011, 02:21 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
Helene is no less an armchair GM than the rest of us, she just happens to have a publicly-read outlet. To me, this is an abuse of journalistic freedom. It's an excuse for her to take a shot at the guy who runs the team that she covers that pays her bills, without any real reason.

Should we have traded Jack Johnson for Chris Stewart or James Neal? Not a chance. Unless there's a deal of two prospects and a pick for a high caliber forward that goes down with Lombardi watching from the sidelines, I don't see what there is to be upset about.
And this is what I was talking about in one of the other threads. She writes for the reactionary, johnny come lately, goes to a handful of games a season fan that doesn't even know what the Kings have when it comes to players in Manchester or prospects in the junior ranks.

If she had a viable suggestion, I could take her more seriously.

Pathetic.

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02-22-2011, 02:21 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Signing Gaborik or Havlat was risking the future of the organization?

Signing Cammalleri to a 5/25 deal was risking the future of the organization?

Once again, you keep giving reasons not to sign or trade for these players. Every signing or trade comes with a risk, who is going to fill these holes for the Kings. There is not a blue chip prospect in the system to fill the Kings hole on the LW.
Yes, if you signed Gaborik you risk losing Johnson or Doughty, etc

BTW, how is Gaborik panning out for NYR this year?

Overpaying for Cammalleri means YOU HAVE LESS CAP SPACE TO SPEND ELSEWHERE. I don't know how to make it more simple bud.

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02-22-2011, 02:23 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by adevandry View Post
Yeah the hole at LW is costing them more.

To start the season, people had predicted the Kings to take the next step and get to the second round or further. They have regressed.

So what is that LW hole costing them? Winning. A run at the Cup. Can you put a price on that?
It cost them winning???

Didn't they start off 12-3, didn't they just finish an east coast road trip that saw them get points in 11 straight games?

You sure it's the hole on LW that has cost them???

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02-22-2011, 02:23 AM
  #59
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Can someone please explain to me why Schenn is not available? He is a future 3rd line/ 2nd line player tops... He does nothing great and the players selected in front of him are light years ahead of him... Please explain why he is valued so high?

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02-22-2011, 02:24 AM
  #60
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Detroit traded their first round picks in 97, 99, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2009. That is a risk.

The Chelios trade was a risk, many thought they were overpaying for a player of his age by trading Anders Eriksson and a first rounder.

Trading Sean Avery and a first for Mathieu Schneider was seen as a risk.

Trading for Brendan Shanahan was a risk, you think dean would trade a Center (Primeau) and a D-Man (Coffey) for a winger (or passenger as SF calls them) in Shanahan?

Now I'm not saying Dean should go trade all our first round picks for veterans, but Holland is much more of a gambler than DL.

If DL were a poker player he would be known as a nit.

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02-22-2011, 02:24 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
The Kings are nowhere near being in the position Detroit has been in for 20 years. It started with Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom and continued with Datsuyk and Zetterberg. They have been able to simply cherry pick future hall of famers with their incredible draft choices to keep rolling like a machine. Have the Kings drafted anybody like Yzerman or Lidstrom? No. Therefore, Dean Lombardi is not in the same position as a Detroit GM. Does he need to get ripped off? No. He's taken enough gambles and lost on players like Rob Blake, Cloutier, etc.. As a King fan I expect the GM to do his job and improve the team every day of the year. I'm a fan, not an accountant, I want the team to win. It's his job to figure out how to accomplish that and my job is to cook up some mac n cheese and watch the Kings on TV.
It wasn't Holland that drafted Yzerman, and they LUCKED into him, you do realize that Yzerman was not their first choice and they considered trading down to get him?

Regardless, you still have not said how Detroit is being risky doing what they have done...

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02-22-2011, 02:25 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Yes, if you signed Gaborik you risk losing Johnson or Doughty, etc

BTW, how is Gaborik panning out for NYR this year?

Overpaying for Cammalleri means YOU HAVE LESS CAP SPACE TO SPEND ELSEWHERE. I don't know how to make it more simple bud.
Cap space that is going unused this season?

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02-22-2011, 02:25 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by The Judge View Post
I will never forget when Brian Burke asked for Pronger and found out it will cost him BIG TIME. And Kevin Lowe asked Brian, "do you want to go to the dance?"

And they did go win the Stanley Cup!

If you don't try - you won't know.

But success doesn't come CHEAP. In business, in our careers you CANNOT expect marginal investments and efforts and expect a humongous return.

It just doesn't happen that way....
Name a forward that would have Pronger-like impact that is available. Also note that trade was made not at the deadline, but prior to the season when asking prices are lower.

I doubt Dean has been offered Rick Nash or something of similar quality that would make the big splash deal worthwhile.

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02-22-2011, 02:25 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Fishhead View Post
If Semin could be had for Voynov/Hickey + a forward, he would be King already. Pretty sure the asking price would be more like Williams + Schenn + 1st.
Go check out the main baord. A Brown for Semin type deal seems to satisfy both sides, with the talk of us adding a Hickey/Voynov seeming to be discussed as well. The same thread was posted on our board first as well. The general concensus doesn't seem to support your asking cost.

As well, Washington resigned Semin and aren't rebuilding, making Williams an odd addition. After the season, they'd have Schenn and a 1st while we'd have Semin still. Why would they do that trade?

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02-22-2011, 02:26 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Detroit traded their first round picks in 97, 99, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2009. That is a risk.

The Chelios trade was a risk, many thought they were overpaying for a player of his age by trading Anders Eriksson and a first rounder.

Trading Sean Avery and a first for Mathieu Schneider was seen as a risk.

Trading for Brendan Shanahan was a risk, you think dean would trade a Center (Primeau) and a D-Man (Coffey) for a winger (or passenger as SF calls them) in Shanahan?

Now I'm not saying Dean should go trade all our first round picks for veterans, but Holland is much more of a gambler than DL.

If DL were a poker player he would be known as a nit.
LOL so then you must rate Dave Taylor above Ken Holland, as if your only candidate for risk is to trade 1st rounders, and proven players for unproven players...my god...really?

THAT is what you call risky?

Then why isn't the Smyth trade considered a "risk", or the "Sturm" trade a risk??

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02-22-2011, 02:27 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
The Kings are nowhere near being in the position Detroit has been in for 20 years. It started with Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom and continued with Datsuyk and Zetterberg. They have been able to simply cherry pick future hall of famers with their incredible draft choices to keep rolling like a machine. Have the Kings drafted anybody like Yzerman or Lidstrom? No. Therefore, Dean Lombardi is not in the same position as a Detroit GM. Does he need to get ripped off? No. He's taken enough gambles and lost on players like Rob Blake, Cloutier, etc.. As a King fan I expect the GM to do his job and improve the team every day of the year. I'm a fan, not an accountant, I want the team to win. It's his job to figure out how to accomplish that and my job is to cook up some mac n cheese and watch the Kings on TV.
Once again Detroit didnt get there over night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
Can someone please explain to me why Schenn is not available? He is a future 3rd line/ 2nd line player tops... He does nothing great and the players selected in front of him are light years ahead of him... Please explain why he is valued so high?
Because you dont give up guys like Schenn. Im not gonna say a word about him not doing anything great and those guys arent that far ahead of him.

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02-22-2011, 02:28 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Building for the long haul instead of a short window? Letting the kids develop instead of rushing them? Detroit took a while to get to the point where they are. Them being able to add players didnt happen overnight.
They stated with different players than the Kings have. Building for the long haul I agree with. Detroit started that build with future HOFers, the Kings have not. The Kings will have to find different ways to gain their success than fans simply saying copy Detroit's method! Detroit started their build with the drafting of Steve Yzerman. The Kings started their build with the drafting of players like Dustin Brown, Kopitar and Doughty-completely different model. The factor in the dreaded salary cap. It's funny how that argument of rushing kids and short term winning is always used when arguing with King fans. No group of fans are better at adding in stuff to make their argument appear stronger than it is. Where did I condone short term winning or rushing kids anywhere in my opinion? And please answer the question, don't sidestep it like the typical response.

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02-22-2011, 02:28 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by adevandry View Post
Cap space that is going unused this season?
That will be used next season after Doughty re-signs, nice try though.

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02-22-2011, 02:28 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Yes, if you signed Gaborik you risk losing Johnson or Doughty, etc

BTW, how is Gaborik panning out for NYR this year?

Overpaying for Cammalleri means YOU HAVE LESS CAP SPACE TO SPEND ELSEWHERE. I don't know how to make it more simple bud.
The Kings would not be in any danger of losing JJ or Doughty had they made any of these signings because Smyth and his $6.2 mill a year cap hit would not be here.

Doughty and JJ were never leaving over money, that is a pathetic excuse you guys come up with when making excuses for why the first line LW and 2nd line center holes have not been filled.

How is $5 mill a year overpaying for Cammalleri, that is the going rate for players of his level.

Still no idea how you can defend not paying those guys what they are making then you turn around and defend Smyth's contract?

Let me guess, when Williams leaves this summer because Dean won't pay him the going rate you will just say he is overpaid too.

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02-22-2011, 02:28 AM
  #70
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LOL so then you must rate Dave Taylor above Ken Holland, as if your only candidate for risk is to trade 1st rounders, and proven players for unproven players...my god...really?

THAT is what you call risky?

Then why isn't the Smyth trade considered a "risk", or the "Sturm" trade a risk??
What did they give up in the Sturm trade?

Lately that trade has been "no risk, no reward".

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02-22-2011, 02:29 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Detroit traded their first round picks in 97, 99, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2006 and 2009. That is a risk.

The Chelios trade was a risk, many thought they were overpaying for a player of his age by trading Anders Eriksson and a first rounder.

Trading Sean Avery and a first for Mathieu Schneider was seen as a risk.

Trading for Brendan Shanahan was a risk, you think dean would trade a Center (Primeau) and a D-Man (Coffey) for a winger (or passenger as SF calls them) in Shanahan?

Now I'm not saying Dean should go trade all our first round picks for veterans, but Holland is much more of a gambler than DL.

If DL were a poker player he would be known as a nit.
And Holland was also in a much better position to trade those picks with that team being much closer to the Cup than the current Kings team is.

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02-22-2011, 02:30 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
Can someone please explain to me why Schenn is not available? He is a future 3rd line/ 2nd line player tops... He does nothing great and the players selected in front of him are light years ahead of him... Please explain why he is valued so high?
A number of fans, not just Kings fans either, consider him to be the best prospect not playing in the NHL if not the best player not in the NHL right now. How is that a 2nd liner tops?

I think Schenn is very similar to Mike Richards, and I don't think he's a 2nd liner tops and I certainly wouldn't deal Mike Richards away for some of the offers we have seen.

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02-22-2011, 02:30 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Once again Detroit didnt get there over night.
Yah dude, I got that part. I'm 37 years old, I'm well aware of what Detroit has done to become what they are. Detroit is not the only team in the NHL that believes in not rushing kids or winning in the long term! How did Carolina win if they didn't copy Detroit?

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02-22-2011, 02:30 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
They stated with different players than the Kings have. Building for the long haul I agree with. Detroit started that build with future HOFers, the Kings have not. The Kings will have to find different ways to gain their success than fans simply saying copy Detroit's method! Detroit started their build with the drafting of Steve Yzerman. The Kings started their build with the drafting of players like Dustin Brown, Kopitar and Doughty-completely different model. The factor in the dreaded salary cap. It's funny how that argument of rushing kids and short term winning is always used when arguing with King fans. No group of fans are better at adding in stuff to make their argument appear stronger than it is. Where did I condone short term winning or rushing kids anywhere in my opinion? And please answer the question, don't sidestep it like the typical response.
No, Detroit did not start their build with the drafting of Steve Yzerman, sorry bud,

BTW, do you honestly believe anyone thought Yzerman, Lidstrom, Federover were future HOF'ers at the time they were drafted? Or is this the good old 20/20 hindsight kicking in?

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02-22-2011, 02:31 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
No, Detroit did not start their build with the drafting of Steve Yzerman, sorry bud,

BTW, do you honestly believe anyone thought Yzerman, Lidstrom, Federover were future HOF'ers at the time they were drafted? Or is this the good old 20/20 hindsight kicking in?
Bud, if you disagree with my opinion then tell me when it started.

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