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Old
02-22-2011, 11:07 AM
  #201
DIEHARD the King fan
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He wasn't worth it then, he isn't worth it now.
I dont get why you dont like short people. I'm going to ask my midget friends to come pay you a visit, WHEN THEY ARE DRUNK!

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Brotherhood? Of what, the shrimp boat captains?
You wouldn't say that to Theo Flury

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DL can afford to stand pat. With the way the talent pool has come along this year and with high buyers prices for the talent mediocre that is available. Anybody including upper management can see why he has not made a move. There are no major players, or the right fit players available. If they ever do then bet your bottom dollar DL pulls the trigger. DL job is not in jeopardy. He has done a great job building this team ya dont throw it away for the like of a Stewart, Hemsky, Penner. Now the likes of Nash, Malkin, Staal, that's another story.
Different, Absolutely. One is the practical reality, the other, a pipe dream.

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... Well, I'm not surprised at all the blather about Helene herself (and not surprised almost all of that is coming from the Dean's Admirers (TM) camp) but it would be nice if someone could actually refute what she's saying, because as far as I can see, she's 100% correct.

As for the Stoll debate in this thread, he's 39th among centers in points and 62nd among centers in PP time. It's silly that we're even discussing this, still. Stoll isn't an elite 2nd line center, and no one has ever claimed this - but he's absolutely in the upper tier. There are definitely areas on the team that can be upgraded, but 2nd line center isn't one of them.

Finally, those who say Cammalleri isn't worth $6 million a season (or $5 million a season at the time he left the Kings) are biased to the point of being absurd and dishonest. Of course he's worth it; his playoff performance last season alone was worth it. He's exactly what the team is lacking this season and to say that Lombardi didn't completely screw the pooch there is, again, comically biased.
I gave up trying to defend Helene on this board, (not that she needs my help) a while ago. She just rubs too many people the wrong way, and I have no problem with that, either. But to excoriate her for an "abuse of journalism" when it is HER JOB to write about what she thinks about the sports teams in LA is just a wee bit myopic. As a sports writer of some note, she is an editorialist. She writes her opinions. It is well known at Staples and El Segundo that she writes sharp articles about this team. However, her pieces are closer to baby powder than rose thorns when compared to how writers in places like Montreal, Toronto and New York describe their teams when things are going as they wouild like to see them.

To me, and I have always heard through the DL speak he is so fond of, I have serious doubts as to his wisdom when it comes to this whole build for the future and be a perennial cup contender for many years to come. There is nothing wrong with building anything with a strong foundation and trying to constantly make it stronger. But as I recall, much like a baby learning to walk, you've got to take that first step before you're going to run a marathon. Right now, we are not winning a cup this year, and while I can hope (there is always hope) for next year, our roster needs some major upgrades for us to realistically have anything other than a cinderella chance next year either.

Which leads me to believe, like Helene, that we ought to do something. (Cue the chorus of people asking me what I would do, and if can't fire off exactly what's better than they think, that somehow absolves Dean from his responsibility). I think Helene nailed DL right on the head with the "paralysis by analysis" comment. That's who he is. He's certainly not a gambler. He's conservative. But gambler's do, and can, win! Its exactly why we always get to hear his explanations about why he doesnt do what all the other contending team's GM's are able to do to make their teams better. He thinks things through to the point of wanting to minimize every risk down to nothing. Well Dean, "nothing ventured, nothing gained." And that is the point Helene was making, and she was doing her job while she was at it.

It strikes me as funny, that for a man that loves his Philly funk as much as Lombardi does, he doesnt seem to see that they have built their team significantly by using pulling the trigger. They make those big moves (Pronger) and the not so big (Versteeg). Please name me one of the perennial stanley cup contending teams that doesnt make that important move almost every year to get better NOW, excepting Detroit, and even they have done so in the past. I dont know why he hasnt addressed the obvious gap in the lineup for any reason other than the risk of making that big move. Thats the point. Nothing more, nothing less.

Re: Cammy, briefly: JT, there are simply some people who are so believing of, and in DL, that they can not admit that DL misjudged the effect the absence of a scoring left wing would have on this team. The hole that DL created by shipping Cammy out for a bag of pucks still hasnt been addressed. DL just didnt like Mike, and that is absolutely true despite any public comments DL might spew otherwise. What is equally true, as the market has proved, is that Cammalleri was worth more than 5MM, he was worth the 6MM he asked for.

I'll leave you with all with a question, rhetorical, admittedly: Could we have used someone with a laser shot and a shot first mentality during last years playoffs? Could we use them today? Im just asking.

(Ok Apologista's, fire away!)

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02-22-2011, 11:12 AM
  #202
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one thing to remember, Mike Cammalleri never played left wing in Los Angeles... he played on Fro's right side.

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02-22-2011, 11:15 AM
  #203
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I could care less what a reporter with, Zero Experience running a NHL team, say's.

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02-22-2011, 11:21 AM
  #204
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I could care less what a reporter with, Zero Experience running a NHL team, say's.
would the same hold true for Bob McKenzie?

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02-22-2011, 11:22 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Which leads me to believe, like Helene, that we ought to do something. (Cue the chorus of people asking me what I would do, and if can't fire off exactly what's better than they think, that somehow absolves Dean from his responsibility). I think Helene nailed DL right on the head with the "paralysis by analysis" comment. That's who he is. He's certainly not a gambler. He's conservative. But gambler's do, and can, win! Its exactly why we always get to hear his explanations about why he doesnt do what all the other contending team's GM's are able to do to make their teams better. He thinks things through to the point of wanting to minimize every risk down to nothing. Well Dean, "nothing ventured, nothing gained." And that is the point Helene was making, and she was doing her job while she was at it.
"No pain, no gain"

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02-22-2011, 11:25 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Well, I'm not surprised at all the blather about Helene herself (and not surprised almost all of that is coming from the Dean's Admirers (TM) camp) but it would be nice if someone could actually refute what she's saying, because as far as I can see, she's 100% correct.

As for the Stoll debate in this thread, he's 39th among centers in points and 62nd among centers in PP time. It's silly that we're even discussing this, still. Stoll isn't an elite 2nd line center, and no one has ever claimed this - but he's absolutely in the upper tier. There are definitely areas on the team that can be upgraded, but 2nd line center isn't one of them.

Finally, those who say Cammalleri isn't worth $6 million a season (or $5 million a season at the time he left the Kings) are biased to the point of being absurd and dishonest. Of course he's worth it; his playoff performance last season alone was worth it. He's exactly what the team is lacking this season and to say that Lombardi didn't completely screw the pooch there is, again, comically biased.
It's easy to sit in a chair and spit acid about what a GM should be doing, but really, how can anyone know what type of offers DL has made, what type of negotiation he's doing, and which players he's chasing? I can almost guarantee you that, as an NHL GM, Lombardi has contact with nearly every other GM in the league on a weekly, if not daily, basis.

This image that gets painted of DL sitting in a corner twiddling his thumbs and waiting for a scoring winger to get dropped off by the stork is, I think, greatly exaggerated.

She has every right to free speech and an opinion in the same way that everyone here has the right to disagree. I just can't get on board with an article like this with weeks to go before the deadline while a bunch of incomparable trades are going on around the league right now.

I heard Ray Shero on On the Fly last night talking about his deal with Dallas. He said that the Stars were looking for an established PMD and that he had zero plans of trading Goligoski until he was offered the deal. The only defensemen we have of similar stature are Doughty and Johnson, and neither of them are going anywhere.

A similar deal went down between the Blues and Avs, where an established high end defenseman got traded for an established high end winger.

There's a pattern there, and I'm sure if you dig over the past couple years, it'll become pretty apparent. Most teams trade their established players for established players, except on deadline day and at the draft.

We don't have any established, quality players available, so it comes as no surprise to me that we haven't made a move.

Closer to the deadline, though? More teams are out of the race and looking for futures, and that's a better time to try and make a deal.

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02-22-2011, 11:27 AM
  #207
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Finally, those who say Cammalleri isn't worth $6 million a season (or $5 million a season at the time he left the Kings) are biased to the point of being absurd and dishonest. Of course he's worth it; his playoff performance last season alone was worth it. He's exactly what the team is lacking this season and to say that Lombardi didn't completely screw the pooch there is, again, comically biased.
Not to me. I understand him getting that money, given the season he had in Calgary but in two seasons with Montreal he has 81 points in 120 games. Yes, he had one great playoff last year, but I'm not giving a guy that kind of money for one great playoff.

i find it funny people can say Cammy is worth his money but Semin isn't worth what he gets paid despite a very similar career and better regular season numbers overall.

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02-22-2011, 11:39 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Josh Deitell View Post
It's easy to sit in a chair and spit acid about what a GM should be doing, but really, how can anyone know what type of offers DL has made, what type of negotiation he's doing, and which players he's chasing? I can almost guarantee you that, as an NHL GM, Lombardi has contact with nearly every other GM in the league on a weekly, if not daily, basis.

This image that gets painted of DL sitting in a corner twiddling his thumbs and waiting for a scoring winger to get dropped off by the stork is, I think, greatly exaggerated.

She has every right to free speech and an opinion in the same way that everyone here has the right to disagree. I just can't get on board with an article like this with DAYS to go before the deadline while a bunch of incomparable trades are going on around the league right now.

I heard Ray Shero on On the Fly last night talking about his deal with Dallas. He said that the Stars were looking for an established PMD and that he had zero plans of trading Goligoski until he was offered the deal. The only defensemen we have of similar stature are Doughty and Johnson, and neither of them are going anywhere.

A similar deal went down between the Blues and Avs, where an established high end defenseman got traded for an established high end winger.

There's a pattern there, and I'm sure if you dig over the past couple years, it'll become pretty apparent. Most teams trade their established players for established players, except on deadline day and at the draft.

We don't have any established, quality players available, so it comes as no surprise to me that we haven't made a move.

Closer to the deadline, though? More teams are out of the race and looking for futures, and that's a better time to try and make a deal.
Fixed that for you.

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02-22-2011, 11:48 AM
  #209
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I think my favorite part of this thread is on the first page.

It went something like this: "It took the Pens THIS long to get Crosby a winger so why should Dean be any faster!?!"

As if someone named Marian Hossa never wore a tiny flightless black bird on his chest. As if Fedetenko was nobody. As if Guerin is a hack.

People's memories seem to only go back about a season and a half.

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02-22-2011, 11:55 AM
  #210
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I think my favorite part of this thread is on the first page.

It went something like this: "It took the Pens THIS long to get Crosby a winger so why should Dean be any faster!?!"

As if someone named Marian Hossa never wore a tiny flightless black bird on his chest. As if Fedetenko was nobody. As if Guerin is a hack.

People's memories seem to only go back about a season and a half.
Don't forget, though, that Hossa walked, Fedotenko was scratched for most of the playoffs last year, Guerin's retired, and Ponikarovsky was a huge bust for them.

Those are moves that a Stanley Cup contender can make to put them over the top, but it's poor asset management otherwise.

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02-22-2011, 11:57 AM
  #211
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Don't forget, though, that Hossa walked, Fedotenko was scratched for most of the playoffs last year, Guerin's retired, and Ponikarovsky was a huge bust for them.

Those are moves that a Stanley Cup contender can make to put them over the top, but it's poor asset management otherwise.
Really? We're gonna argue that Pittsburgh made a bunch of mistakes?

Hossa walked after a cup run that the Pens used to build confidence for a cup win. Fedetenko fell off the track after being a key player for the Pens for a few years. Guerin retired? So what, players retire. Guerin kicked some ass for them. Poni was a bust... and guess who picked up that guy AFTER he busted?

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02-22-2011, 12:02 PM
  #212
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Which leads me to believe, like Helene, that we ought to do something. (Cue the chorus of people asking me what I would do, and if can't fire off exactly what's better than they think, that somehow absolves Dean from his responsibility). I think Helene nailed DL right on the head with the "paralysis by analysis" comment. That's who he is. He's certainly not a gambler. He's conservative. But gambler's do, and can, win! Its exactly why we always get to hear his explanations about why he doesnt do what all the other contending team's GM's are able to do to make their teams better. He thinks things through to the point of wanting to minimize every risk down to nothing. Well Dean, "nothing ventured, nothing gained." And that is the point Helene was making, and she was doing her job while she was at it.
... I was trying to describe my opinion of Lombardi to a friend of mine, as succinctly as I could. Friend was a Civil War enthusiast, so I said that Lombardi seemed to me to be the George McClellan of the NHL. Now, this didn't mean that I thought (or think) that Lombardi's a bad GM, just as McClellan wasn't a bad general. But - the Union might have lost the War if McClellan had remained in command. Just as I don't believe that Murray's the head coach to take the Kings to the promised land, I don't believe that Lombardi's the GM to take them there, either.

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02-22-2011, 12:07 PM
  #213
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Really? We're gonna argue that Pittsburgh made a bunch of mistakes?

Hossa walked after a cup run that the Pens used to build confidence for a cup win. Fedetenko fell off the track after being a key player for the Pens for a few years. Guerin retired? So what, players retire. Guerin kicked some ass for them. Poni was a bust... and guess who picked up that guy AFTER he busted?
My favorite part is that people discount Stanley Cup wins. "Well, they won but where are they now?" Huh? Isn't that the point of hockey?

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02-22-2011, 12:20 PM
  #214
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My favorite part is that people discount Stanley Cup wins. "Well, they won but where are they now?" Huh? Isn't that the point of hockey?
Exactly! The goal is to win the Cup.

Apparently winning is overrated on this board. Quite a few people seem to think that stocking the system and waiting another 5 years for a possible dynasty is what matters most.

For a fanbase that has NEVER experienced a Stanley Cup win, I'm shocked at the number of people who don't seem to mind waiting.

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02-22-2011, 12:33 PM
  #215
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My favorite part is that people discount Stanley Cup wins. "Well, they won but where are they now?" Huh? Isn't that the point of hockey?

DL himself, on NHL radio a couple days after the Hawks won the cup, said he would do what Chicago did if it meant winning a cup in LA, notwithstanding that they had to blow up a good part of their team right after. Problem is, they took risks, significant risks, that DL just wont take.

Before I wish for several cups, I will be happy with just ONE.

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Exactly! The goal is to win the Cup.

Apparently winning is overrated on this board. Quite a few people seem to think that stocking the system and waiting another 5 years for a possible dynasty is what matters most.

For a fanbase that has NEVER experienced a Stanley Cup win, I'm shocked at the number of people who don't seem to mind waiting.

The as yet unpublished 2nd half of the DL "Five-Year Plan," to be titled: "The Real Plan, or Part Two: The Next Five Years" is currently set to be published in 2012.

I can't wait!

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02-22-2011, 12:44 PM
  #216
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Don't forget, though, that Hossa walked, Fedotenko was scratched for most of the playoffs last year, Guerin's retired, and Ponikarovsky was a huge bust for them.

Those are moves that a Stanley Cup contender can make to put them over the top, but it's poor asset management otherwise.
Hossa walked, but they got to the cup finals, Fedotenko and Guerin raised a cup for them.

Hossa cost a fair bit, but Pittsburgh had the depth to do this. Fedotenko was a UFA signing, so not really sure how he was bad asset management, and Guerin cost them if I recall right, a 5th round pick that went up based on what round Pittsburgh made it to.

Poni cost Luca Caputi and a 4th I believe.

Outside of Hossa, they didn't give up much really in terms of quality, and even that can be debated based on how Esposito panned out in Atlanta and how well Dupuis (the other piece to Pittsburgh in the Hossa trade) has done in his three-plus seasons with the Penguins.

If you look at what Pittsburgh parted with and the fact they got two cup berths (a possibly a 3rd if not for a hot Halak) out of it, I think almost every GM in the game would make those deals.

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02-22-2011, 12:47 PM
  #217
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Hossa walked, but they got to the cup finals, Fedotenko and Guerin raised a cup for them.

Hossa cost a fair bit, but Pittsburgh had the depth to do this. Fedotenko was a UFA signing, so not really sure how he was bad asset management, and Guerin cost them if I recall right, a 5th round pick that went up based on what round Pittsburgh made it to.

Poni cost Luca Caputi and a 4th I believe.

Outside of Hossa, they didn't give up much really in terms of quality, and even that can be debated based on how Esposito panned out in Atlanta and how well Dupuis (the other piece to Pittsburgh in the Hossa trade) has done in his three-plus seasons with the Penguins.

If you look at what Pittsburgh parted with and the fact they got two cup berths (a possibly a 3rd if not for a hot Halak) out of it, I think almost every GM in the game would make those deals.
Not ours!

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02-22-2011, 12:55 PM
  #218
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My favorite part is that people discount Stanley Cup wins. "Well, they won but where are they now?" Huh? Isn't that the point of hockey?
Until they start issuing banners for best potential in the NHL, I'll stick with considering winning the Cup as the ultimate goal.

... and to whoever it was that asked what Carolina has done since they won the Cup (as though their performance since has been equal or worse than the Kings), they did make it to the 3rd round of the playoffs in 2009 - something that the Kings have managed to do only once in their history.

Could somebody please point me to the Certificate of Assurance that building a team "the right way" and being patient as young players develop guarantees success? All that it gives you is a CHANCE at success - and long term exposure to catastrophic injuries that can cripple your chances. Look how long that it is taking Sydney Crosby to come back from the concussion. A couple of those or knee-to-knee hits on your core players and all of the years of patience can go down the drain pretty quickly. It took Doughty many games to come back to full production after his concussion - guys like Deadmarsh never did and were forced to retire prematurely.

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02-22-2011, 01:10 PM
  #219
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http://www.jewelsfromthecrown.com/20...-dean-lombardi

"Dithers implies either fear or indecisiveness, neither of which describes Lombardi very well. If anything, he's entrenched in his own philosophy and stubborn about stepping outside of it. Which of course you would want to be, if you believed in yourself and had the courage of your convictions. All of which is the opposite of indecisive.

Does she understand she's put-out because Lombardi isn't desperate and/or panicky enough for her?"

"Other examples of tedious Lombardi trades:

* Ryan Smyth acquired for Kyle Quincey and Tom Preissing.
* Jarret Stoll and Matt Greene acquired for Lubomir Visnovsky.
* Jack Johnson acquired for Tim Gleason and Eric Belanger.
* Trevor Lewis and Patrick O'Sullivan (see Justin Williams) for Pavol Demitra.
* Fredrik Modin acquired for a conditional pick, the condition being the 210th pick if the Kings win the cup.
* Oscar Moller, via pick acquired in Norstrom trade.
* Colten Teubert and Nicolas Deslauriers*, via picks acquired in Norstrom and Mike Cammalleri trades.
* Wayne Simmonds, via pick acquired for Brent Sopel.
* Marc-Andre Cliche acquired for Sean Avery.
* Brad Richardson for a pick.
* Marco Sturm for...nothing.
* Sean O`Donnell for...nothing again.
"

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02-22-2011, 01:43 PM
  #220
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Really? We're gonna argue that Pittsburgh made a bunch of mistakes?

Hossa walked after a cup run that the Pens used to build confidence for a cup win. Fedetenko fell off the track after being a key player for the Pens for a few years. Guerin retired? So what, players retire. Guerin kicked some ass for them. Poni was a bust... and guess who picked up that guy AFTER he busted?
My point was not that Pittsburgh made mistakes. They had years worth of top draft picks on their roster which rendered them a legit contender and allowed them to deal their youth. Those trades worked for them. They don't always work. Remember when Nashville gave up the farm for a couple months and a playoff series worth of Forsberg? It ended up being a setback. To me, we're closer to where Nashville was than where Pittsburgh was when they made their deals.

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02-22-2011, 01:58 PM
  #221
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My point was not that Pittsburgh made mistakes. They had years worth of top draft picks on their roster which rendered them a legit contender and allowed them to deal their youth. Those trades worked for them. They don't always work. Remember when Nashville gave up the farm for a couple months and a playoff series worth of Forsberg? It ended up being a setback. To me, we're closer to where Nashville was than where Pittsburgh was when they made their deals.
Really? The year before the Hossa deal Pittsburgh got bounced in the first round and the year before that they didn't even make the playoffs.

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02-22-2011, 02:03 PM
  #222
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Not ours!
Only way to know is if DL was in Shero's shoes at the time, and he wasn't.

Technically, 29 GM's didn't make those trades.

Most Kings fans agree that next year, starting in the off-season, is the year that LA needs to start making a huge push. That's when we should be looking at DL making trades similar to those of Shero.

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02-22-2011, 02:05 PM
  #223
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Really? The year before the Hossa deal Pittsburgh got bounced in the first round and the year before that they didn't even make the playoffs.
You're being disingenuous. The Penguins were leading their division at the time of the trade in a year where Jersey, Philly, and the Rangers all made the playoffs with at least 95 points. Pittsburgh was killing it.

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02-22-2011, 02:10 PM
  #224
Josh Deitell
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Really? The year before the Hossa deal Pittsburgh got bounced in the first round and the year before that they didn't even make the playoffs.
Which has more to do with their top players rounding into form than anything. In 05-06, Crosby's rookie year, they missed the playoffs. In his second, when Malkin was a rookie, they made it and were knocked out in the first round. In Malkin's second and Sid's third, they made the finals and lost (with Hossa). The next year, they won the cup (without Hossa).

Hossa is a fantastic player, but if he couldn't put the Pens and Wings over the top, how can anyone say with certainty that a similar player would have that effect here?

Add Hossa to our roster right now and we're arguably on the level of the Pens and Wings before they picked him up.

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02-22-2011, 02:10 PM
  #225
kingsfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
http://www.jewelsfromthecrown.com/20...-dean-lombardi

"Dithers implies either fear or indecisiveness, neither of which describes Lombardi very well. If anything, he's entrenched in his own philosophy and stubborn about stepping outside of it. Which of course you would want to be, if you believed in yourself and had the courage of your convictions. All of which is the opposite of indecisive.

Does she understand she's put-out because Lombardi isn't desperate and/or panicky enough for her?"

"Other examples of tedious Lombardi trades:

* Ryan Smyth acquired for Kyle Quincey and Tom Preissing.
* Jarret Stoll and Matt Greene acquired for Lubomir Visnovsky.
* Jack Johnson acquired for Tim Gleason and Eric Belanger.
* Trevor Lewis and Patrick O'Sullivan (see Justin Williams) for Pavol Demitra.
* Fredrik Modin acquired for a conditional pick, the condition being the 210th pick if the Kings win the cup.
* Oscar Moller, via pick acquired in Norstrom trade.
* Colten Teubert and Nicolas Deslauriers*, via picks acquired in Norstrom and Mike Cammalleri trades.
* Wayne Simmonds, via pick acquired for Brent Sopel.
* Marc-Andre Cliche acquired for Sean Avery.
* Brad Richardson for a pick.
* Marco Sturm for...nothing.
* Sean O`Donnell for...nothing again.
"
I will defend DL to the core, but his one weakness is a lack of demonstrated willingness to make a huge trade to show he's going for it. The biggest immediate impact trade he's done in LA is the Smyth one, and as great of a deal as that was, it wasn't done because DL was "going for it," it was done as a piece of the bigger puzzle.

Our team is now much closer to the going for it stage, even by DL's own 5 year plan standard, and he needs to show a willingness next year to open up and make a push to get that last piece or two we need.

I believe in DL and am a huge supporter, but in the next 12 months, he needs to find a legitimate 40 goal guy, likely a 2nd line centre and probably a few solid veterans for depth/bolster the lower lines and D.

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