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Dean Lombardi: Missed Opportunities, or Not?

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Old
02-22-2011, 12:53 AM
  #26
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Havlat is the lone guy on that list I felt DL could have got for that contract and should have. And even now I'm somewhat debating on if he's worth that much money, because he's not scoring a lot of goals, which is what we really need.

Wasn't Malone an RFA signing btw? I forget but I thought he was.

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Old
02-22-2011, 08:10 AM
  #27
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We need to remember that in the case of Drury and Gomez DL offered big money but the players turned LA down. THANK GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DL puts too much emphasis on "his type" of player. Just like he says every team needs its "criminals", I think every team also needs an individual or two that walk to the beat of their own drum.

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02-22-2011, 08:29 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by adevandry View Post
I could have left him off the list. But he was top 6 when he was traded.

Besides, this isn't about players who could help L.A. now. It's a list of top-6 that has been traded since Lombardi took over. But thanks for your insight.
You also said:

Quote:
Turns out they are each top 6 for their current respective teams as well.
I guess Cheechoo might still fit in that, but I don't know the Worcester Sharks' lineup.

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02-22-2011, 09:19 AM
  #29
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Posted this in another thread but applies here as well. TM is a wizard. He has done admirably with what he has had to work with. I can also understand the DL stall. What he has been able to build is special a lot of people in the hockey world have stated so. To throw it away for a trade for trade sake wont happen. DL has said all along he does not want to get rid of the core. Loki has really showed lately as well as Lewis and Martinez. Plus what has been going on in Manchester. I can see or understand the stall. I think he would love to do it via FA. But players have been resigning or the prices are to high with the buyers market. Kinda the perfect storm for us. We got the talent coming up but can we wait. I can. I am a DL supporter. Heck I'm a Kings supporter.

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02-22-2011, 09:49 AM
  #30
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The further west you go, the fewer big name free agents you'll find. That's not just a Lombardi thing, and it's not just a Kings thing.

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02-22-2011, 10:54 AM
  #31
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I want to clone Ziggy Stardust

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02-22-2011, 10:57 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
I want to clone Ziggy Stardust
he took it all too far...

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02-22-2011, 11:10 AM
  #33
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Great post!

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Old
02-22-2011, 11:48 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FootKnight View Post
You also said:

Quote:
Turns out they are each top 6 for their current respective teams as well.
I guess Cheechoo might still fit in that, but I don't know the Worcester Sharks' lineup.
If you're going to quote me, then do it right.

I said that those players are currently top 6 for their respective teams in reply to this post by sjmay:

Quote:
Sorry, I read that as top 3, not top 6, well yea, if you think Jason Blake is a top 6 LW, same goes with Michaelk, Hartnell, Versteeg, Kostitsyn, Wolski, etc....

I suppose lol
Notice how Cheechoo is not listed there?

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02-22-2011, 02:23 PM
  #35
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It kills me that an article written to incite emotion and drive readership has has almost nine pages of posts but a well reasoned articulate missive defending Lombardi has a page and a half of pithy comments.

Ziggy has shown, clearly, why Lombardi's conservative nature has actually proven beneficial to the Kings. I think the reason why there has been so few comments is because it's so hard to argue to the contrary given Ziggy's facts.

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02-22-2011, 02:38 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chruceg View Post
It kills me that an article written to incite emotion and drive readership has has almost nine pages of posts but a well reasoned articulate missive defending Lombardi has a page and a half of pithy comments.

Ziggy has shown, clearly, why Lombardi's conservative nature has actually proven beneficial to the Kings. I think the reason why there has been so few comments is because it's so hard to argue to the contrary given Ziggy's facts.
Or a growing number of ranks are becoming anti-DL and can't/won't admit that maybe DL was right in not paying as much as these players got.

Of note, one guy that DL was after and was willing to match the term and dollars on, was Chara, but he decided he wanted to go to Boston instead, if I recall right due to the fact he viewed Boston as a better cup contender. Even though I think Chara is worth every penny, it's interesting that we have built one of the best defenses without him and have two studs who will in all likelihood be here for the next decade.

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Old
02-22-2011, 03:38 PM
  #37
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great post Ziggy, makes it damn tough to refute what DL has / has not done during his tenure. the fact he hasn't signed these guys has frankly helped and saved this team. out of these guys the only ones I wanted to secure was Hossa and Kovy (in that order). ironically both CHI and NJ are now and for years are going to have an albatross tied on their necks because of the contracts.

i agree with the others the big mistake he made was not making the move to bring Tippett back to LA. if there is a fault of DL it is loyalty/allegiance that likely factored in when it came to this decision. it's one of DL's major personality traits he looks for in players and i'm guessing he didn't want to show himself not having the same loyalty to his coach.

when it comes to the blame game and the LW situation all the blame can't be dumped on Dean. blame also has to be placed on D Taylor's regime for not keeping the pipeline filled with good LW prospects. the only player to emerge was Frolov from DT's entire tenure. 15 LW's were drafted from 1997-2005 while DT was at the helm and only Fro emerged as a NHL player. a few of them had the proverbial 'cup of coffee' in the league and that was it. i still think Fro was and is a better option than Poni was going into this season.

DT's guys still remaining are - DB (03), Kopi (05), Quick (05) and Parse (04). 90 players were drafted from 97-05 by DT and only 4 remain....that is god awful when it comes to scouting and development. none of the 86 players iirc are still within the LA system any longer, correct me if i'm wrong. that further shows just how bad this org was when DL inherited it and had to completely rebuild it.

DL's breakdown in comparison is - bernier (06), Lewis (06), Simmonds (07), AMart (07), DD (08), Clifford (09) - all current roster players. Moller and King (07), Lokti (08), Schenn (09) have all had a sniff with varying levels of success. add to this 7-10 guys that have been in MAN all season with better than 'varying' levels of success. then the few guys like Hickey and Teubert that have had one injury after another and are just now beginning to show progress.

DL has gotten LA closer to the end prize than any other GM while keeping the roster and prospect lists stockpiled. i wasnt a kool-aid drinking DL fan for quite some time but the more you see where this team has progressed from and what the future holds.....the more i am a fan of DL. i am grateful that he is cautious when it comes to using and moving his assets.

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Old
02-22-2011, 04:18 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
I want to clone Ziggy Stardust
Quote:
Originally Posted by wabwat View Post
he took it all too far...

but boy, could he play guitar...

Thats now playing on my computer. Thanks wabwat.

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Old
02-22-2011, 05:07 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by wabwat View Post
he took it all too far...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
but boy, could he play guitar...
So where is John Zeiler.....

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Old
02-22-2011, 05:12 PM
  #40
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So where is John Zeiler.....
LMFAO!!! absolutely hysterical.

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Old
02-22-2011, 06:09 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chruceg View Post
It kills me that an article written to incite emotion and drive readership has has almost nine pages of posts but a well reasoned articulate missive defending Lombardi has a page and a half of pithy comments.

Ziggy has shown, clearly, why Lombardi's conservative nature has actually proven beneficial to the Kings. I think the reason why there has been so few comments is because it's so hard to argue to the contrary given Ziggy's facts.
There's no mystery with Lombardi... to the point of almost being boring. He doesn't change course mid-stream. He has well-entrenched beliefs and he sticks with them through good times and bad. That can be both extremely comforting and immensely frustrating depending on what particular belief of his you're taking issue with, but that's the type of person you want as GM. No one wants anyone who is indecisive or wishy-washy.

The main beef fans have with DL is that 1. no one knows his timetable for hole-filling and 2. it's slow. They know what he needs to do, they just don't know when it's going to happen and why it's taking so long - even when a big part of the answer is right there in the first post of this thread.

The sure-fire way to build a winner is to draft well, develop even better and do it from within. Unfortunately that also takes massive amounts of time.

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Old
02-22-2011, 08:11 PM
  #42
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If there is one thing I think Lombardi can be faulted for it is that he can be a lot more assertive, but then again, we don't know what is being asked from the Kings, what is being offered, and whether or not GMs are actively looking to make trades. This is a buyers market with seldom sellers.

Some say Lombardi is not a risk taker, but I think he has taken a lot of risks that have backfired. When you depend on rookies and young players like they did with Doughty, Simmonds, Clifford, etc. that is taking a risk. As it was when they dealt Demitra for a prospect (O'Sullivan) and a pick (Lewis) or when they dealt O'Sullivan for an injured Justin Williams. Those are examples of risks working out well, then there are others that didn't work out so well with Dan Cloutier and Alyn McCauley. I'd say any GM is taking a risk when plucking free agents, and the Kings did that early on with Handzus, Preissing, Thornton, Calder, Nagy...

Now, when Lombardi talks about finding the right fit, I question, is he waiting for that right fit to become available or to come to him? Or is he seeking it? I think at times he can assert himself to find that right deal more so than waiting for it to happen. Example, the Joe Thornton trade. Nobody knew that Thornton was available when he was dealt. So it helps to just pickup the phone and shoot for the moon. You never know what answer you'll get.

I suggest people read Bruce McNall's book, Fun While It Lasted: My Rise and Fall In the Land of Fame and Fortune. He talks about how the Gretzky deal came about, and he aggressively pursued him for over a year and made Pocklington think about trading Gretzky. I know times are different now with the economic structure of the NHL, but planting that seed into an executives head can get the gears moving.

Rather than waiting for a call to come through or for a name to become available, I'd like to hear or read about Lombardi being active in looking for that right fit. All we can do is wait until next week to see if Lombardi is able to find that deal. I don't think he's going to find it waiting around for one to come to him.

As far as free agent signings go, more often than not, they don't work out. I only listed forwards in there, but take a look at some of the dmen signings that have busted like Bouwmeester, Souray, Redden, Campbell, Commodore, Komisarek, Hainsey, etc. None of them have lived up to their contracts. If a team is going to look to make an addition through free agency, the best fits seem to be the complimentary type additions, not the types of signings where a player is expected to change the makeup of a team.

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Old
02-22-2011, 08:33 PM
  #43
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.....takes massive amounts of time.
where the critical issue lies with DL's plan.....having the patience to allow DL to draft and develop prospects internally. to many think the process happens overnight, it takes years and years. LA had practically nothing in the pipeline in 2006 when he took over. within the next year or two the prospects that have been maturing in MAN will finally start to move to LA. at the same time existing vet players will be moving on most likely and DL's all inclusive team will finally begin to truly take shape.

most teams and LA has been part of the culture is that making a trade will result in upgrading the team. aka, 'the grass is always greener on the other side'. well folks where has that gotten the org? no place. i think LA was at absolute rock bottom in '06 when DL took over from Taylor. as i noted earlier DT made 90 picks during his tenure and to date only 4 remain (all roster players in LA). the depth in the org was absolute crap and is just now to the point of being healthy, with the exception of talented scoring wingers.

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02-22-2011, 08:36 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by TonySCV View Post
There's no mystery with Lombardi... to the point of almost being boring. He doesn't change course mid-stream. He has well-entrenched beliefs and he sticks with them through good times and bad. That can be both extremely comforting and immensely frustrating depending on what particular belief of his you're taking issue with, but that's the type of person you want as GM. No one wants anyone who is indecisive or wishy-washy.

The main beef fans have with DL is that 1. no one knows his timetable for hole-filling and 2. it's slow. They know what he needs to do, they just don't know when it's going to happen and why it's taking so long - even when a big part of the answer is right there in the first post of this thread.

The sure-fire way to build a winner is to draft well, develop even better and do it from within. Unfortunately that also takes massive amounts of time.
...and faith, something I am not, as a matter of history and prior experience, long on with Kings management.

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02-22-2011, 09:12 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Whiskeypete View Post
where the critical issue lies with DL's plan.....having the patience to allow DL to draft and develop prospects internally. to many think the process happens overnight, it takes years and years. LA had practically nothing in the pipeline in 2006 when he took over. within the next year or two the prospects that have been maturing in MAN will finally start to move to LA. at the same time existing vet players will be moving on most likely and DL's all inclusive team will finally begin to truly take shape.

most teams and LA has been part of the culture is that making a trade will result in upgrading the team. aka, 'the grass is always greener on the other side'. well folks where has that gotten the org? no place. i think LA was at absolute rock bottom in '06 when DL took over from Taylor. as i noted earlier DT made 90 picks during his tenure and to date only 4 remain (all roster players in LA). the depth in the org was absolute crap and is just now to the point of being healthy, with the exception of talented scoring wingers.
This is such revisionist history. How many of those were traded away or just left to walk?

I'm still waiting for DL to produce a winner - anywhere - EVER! Don't talk to me about potential - show me the banner and I will apologize. Until then, it is just bluster ...

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02-22-2011, 09:38 PM
  #46
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I would think that Lombardi is active everyday, checking on teams to see if certain players are available. The problems that I see Lombardi having is that teams are so closely matched in today's NHL, the Western Conference log jam is more than proof enough for that, that there just isn't many teams looking to make those, "We'll take draft picks and prospects in the minors for such and such player(s).".
Another problem is that there are so few sellers, that the buyers need to over pay to get what they need.
The last problem that Lombardi looks to have is that teams only want the Simmonds or Berniers or Schenn's, and Dean just isn't willing to move them yet, if ever. He's got the assets, with picks and lower level prospects, it's just that teams aren't willing to take them. He's in a tough spot right now. You deal Bernier, you're left with Jones or Zatkoff backing up Quick. You're right back to Quick playing 70+ games and running out of gas come playoff time. Yes Jones is having a solid season down in the AHL, but it's the AHL, a big step down from the NHL.
Sooner or later though, he's gonna have to part with a core player or a top prospect in order to fill a hole. He's built the goaltending, he's built the defense, his only two spots to fill now are a 1st line left wing and a true 2nd line center. Do the Kings already have the 2nd line center in Schenn or Loktionov? Nobody really knows, only time will tell us that. But how long can he wait before he absolutely has to make a move. In my opinion, time is running out. In 2 years time, Smyth will not be a 2nd line left winger. If he hasn't filled the 1st line wing spot by then, then he's left with filling the 1st and 2nd line spots.
In 2 years Mitchell and Scuderi could both be gone. Will Teubert or Hickey or Voynov be ready to step in then? Maybe, but what if they're not. He then has to fill 2 spots on defense. Maybe he signs them both again, maybe they decide to move on. Maybe he doesn't get Williams signed. Now you've got a the 1st/2nd line right winger to find. Is Moller the replacement? He could, but he could also fall flat on his face.
Lombardi has a chance and the assets to add what they need now and go for it in the next couple of seasons. Like I said earlier though, is there any teams willing to take those assets for the Kings needs?

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02-23-2011, 02:10 AM
  #47
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This is such revisionist history. How many of those were traded away or just left to walk?

I'm still waiting for DL to produce a winner - anywhere - EVER! Don't talk to me about potential - show me the banner and I will apologize. Until then, it is just bluster ...
this took forever breaking this down and the data isn't complete when it comes to most players per contracts. some you will find good data, others there is nothing. it's safe to assume that most guys get 2-4 year rookie contracts. after that timeframe if they aren't in around in LA or MAN its safe to assume they aren't with the org any longer.

i broke down two different points of consideration. not playing for LA at all. and also never even making to play in the NHL or the AHL affiliate. players that didn't even make the AHL club imo are total busts and were wasted picks. most of these players are from Europe and either never signed or were re-signed by LA.

1997
-9 picks overall
-6 never played for LA
-3 never even came to the US for LA or the AHL
-1 never signed and was re-drafted
-1 was traded (Jokinen to NYI '99)
-1 left via UFA (Corvo '06)
-301 GP
-109 Pts
Olli got shipped off to NYI for Ziggy. Zultek never signed/was re-drafted at #2. Barney never overcame the back issues iirc. Corvo left via UFA. The remainder never amounted to anything.

1998
-9 picks overall
-5 never played for LA
-4 never came to the US for LA or the AHL
-1 was never signed and re-drafted
-2 trades (Biron to NYI '99, Brennan to ATL '04)
-68 GP
-9 Pts
Biron was part of the trade for Ziggy/Smolinski package. Papineau was a never signed/re-draft. The rest of the class was a bust.

1999
-10 picks
-7 never played for LA
-5 never came to the US for LA or the AHL
-1 trade (Kaberle to CAR '00)
-1 waived/unsigned (Parros '06)
-112 GP
-17 Pts
Alot of picks spent on talent in Europe that never materialized. The worse of which was Shefer at #1 that had one season in the QMJHL then went back to Russia. Four other players were from Europe that didn't even make one season here. Three addt'l NA picks never made it past 50+ games in the AHL. Kaberle was the only player in this class that has amounted to anything. Parros and McGrattan are role players/enforcers.

2000
-11 picks
-6 never played for LA
-6 never came to the US for LA or the AHL
-4 trades (Lilja to FLA '02, Lehoux to PHX '06, Visnovsky to EDM '08, Federov to DAL '07)
-1 UFA (Frolov '10)
-1080 GP
-668 Pts
One of the only decent drafts during DT's tenure. It only bears out because of Fro's and Vis' production. Lilja showed some promise, but was still needed time to develop and LA didn't have the patience for it. The rest of the class was a bust. Vis was shipped to EDM in a salary dump that netted Stoll and Greene (via DL).

2001
-11 picks
-7 never played
-6 never came to the US for LA or the AHL
-3 trades (Cami to CAL '08, Bednar to FLA '02, Huet to MTL '04)
-376 GP
-220Pts
-14 Wins
Cami and Huet were the only ones to make the big squad. Worse part is the #1 and #2 picks were total busts. #1 Karlsson never made it to the US even. Aside from Cami this is one of the worse drafts for the regime.

2002
-11 picks
-8 never played for LA
-6 never came to the US
-2 trades (Grebeshkov to NYI '06, Anshakov to PIT '03)
-24 GP
-4 Pts
The worse draft in DT's tenure. 11 players drafted and it results in 24 GP total.

2003
-10 picks
-1 active player (DB)
-4 never played
-2 never came to the US
-4 trades (Boyle to NYR '09, Tambellini to NYI '06, Pushkarev to DAL '08, Munce to TB '07)
-608 GP
-316 Pts
DL used this class to help with the rebuild. He shipped off three players here to bring him assets. DT himself shipped off Tambellini for Sopel/Parrish. For DT at least it showed his staff was moving away from taking chances on European prospects that likely wouldn't come to the US/CAN.

2004
-9 picks
-1 active player (Parse - IR)
-5 never played
-3 never came to the US/CAN
-2 trades (Tukonen to DAL '08, Lukacevic to PHI '08)
-74 GP
-28 Pts
Again DL ships off the #1 and #4 picks for Clune, Gauthier and a pick. The jury is still out on Parse due to injury, but it's likely the window of opp for him is closing. He has one year left on his contract and he has to pay off next season or likely face not being re-signed. The rest of the class is a total bust. Yet another uninspiring draft class for LA that only meant the pipeline of talent got smaller.

2005
-8 picks
-2 active players (Kopi & Quick)
-6 never played for LA
-2 never came to the US/CAN
-2 trades (Hersley to PHI '08, Seymour to NYR '07)
-540 GP
-340 Pts
-87 Wins
This is a 'glass is half empty-half full' class depending on how you view it. IMO if there was just one player from the class on the LA roster I would consider it a successful class. The fact that DT got LA's #1 C and #1 G in the same class was an achievement. It's to bad that it took so long for him to make this kind of splash, because this was his last draft.

So back to the question of how many were traded, went un-signed? Like I said the data is very incomplete, but you can read the writing on the wall by just looking at LA's draft classes and who is around and who isn't.

I think if anything looking back at this DT and his scouts put to much emphasis and hope on bringing over talent from Europe and Russia. He had 13 1st rounders during his tenure. Of those 13 picks he used 6 of them on players from overseas. Only Kopi and Fro made it to LA, the other 4 never made an impact. That is four #1's wasted. The same problem continued as you went into the #2 and #3 picks at nearly the same ratio. As you get deeper into the picks the ratio gets worse, LA was taking big long shots on these kids ever coming to the US/CAN to develop their game.

anyways it's late and need to get to bed. im going to breakdown 2006+ under DL to compare tomorrow and see if the numbers improve.


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Old
02-23-2011, 09:58 AM
  #48
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Great post Whiskeypete, very insightful and shows how inept overall DT's scouting department was.

Of note, DL didn't trade away four guys from the 2003 draft class, he traded away three. DT traded away Tambellini himself in the Parrish+Sopel for Tambellini+Grebeshkov trade.

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Old
02-23-2011, 10:07 AM
  #49
TonySCV
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Whiskeypete... that is some grade A research there. Thanks so much for that.

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02-23-2011, 10:33 AM
  #50
driller1
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I wish we could sticky this thread - lots of important FACTS between Ziggy and Whiskey's posts that people often neglect when discussing the Kings.

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