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Old
02-22-2011, 01:24 AM
  #326
PredsV82
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Seriously? Hossa scored 26 points in 20 games in their Cup Run. If you call that useless, what do you call any player on our team?

Shero has the boldness and creativity that Poile lacks. He's not afraid to trade a key player if he thinks it's going to make the team better. He gets vets for fairly cheap. Heck, he's not even afraid to fire a coach that took a team in the Cup Finals the year before.

He's bold and he's usually right.

There's no use in comparing the Poile/Shero track records because it isn't even close. Shero has more playoff wins in 4 years than Poile does in 27 years.

Yes, there are different factors in play, but I think Shero is possibly the best GM in hockey, with this trading being a huge example of that. Between him and Holland, IMO.
I will agree that there is no use comparing the Shero/poile track records, but not for the reason you state

You cannot name me another GM in recent history who had a team handed to him with as much talent as Shero was given.

That shoots down any comaprison.


Lets imagine an alternate reality, in which Poile took a job offer from another club and Shero was the Predators GM say beginning right after the lockout.

Do you really think he'd have made a bunch of bold moves? I think more likely he would have continued running the Preds the way his mentor did, knowing our limitations, and likely had much the same results.

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02-22-2011, 01:38 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post

You cannot name me another GM in recent history who had a team handed to him with as much talent as Shero was given.

That shoots down any comaprison.


stan bowman....given toews, kane, keith, seabrook, buff, ladd, sharp, campbell

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02-22-2011, 01:46 AM
  #328
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stan bowman....given toews, kane, keith, seabrook, buff, ladd, sharp, campbell
my bad. I forgot they changed GMs right on the cusp of success... with the same result.

but my point still applies. GMs can be bold with a lot of talent to fall back on if the "complementary player" trades dont work out, and they can really be bold when they can flash a championship ring to anyone who wants to criticize their subsequent results.

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02-22-2011, 02:47 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
Lets imagine an alternate reality, in which Poile took a job offer from another club and Shero was the Predators GM say beginning right after the lockout.

Do you really think he'd have made a bunch of bold moves? I think more likely he would have continued running the Preds the way his mentor did, knowing our limitations, and likely had much the same results.
I prefer not to imagine alternate realities with hypothetical questions. That's your game.

Sure, Shero was handed talent. But, so was Waddel with Healtey, K-Chuck, etc. So was TB with Ricards, St. Louis, Lecaviler (and still finished dead last).

Yes, I think Shero would have made bolder moves than Poile as GM of the Preds. Very few of his bold moves have had anything to do with taking on additional salary. Even with Hossa, they were only on the hook for 1/5 of his salary. Oh dang, I entered your alternate reality.

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02-22-2011, 08:23 AM
  #330
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Darn Poile missing the boat again!!!

If he was bolder, we would have had that scoring forward we all wanted. We could have packaged Franson, Klein and a couple of picks for Carmelo and on to the playoffs we would be!!!

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02-22-2011, 08:37 AM
  #331
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And every time Poile has made a bold move, Forsberg, Witt and recently with Fisher, most people moaned about what he gave up. Can't have it both ways.

Let's also go back to an important fact, 4 1st round picks, in back to back to back to back years that netted them Malkin, Fleury, Crosby and Staal. Name me one team that has ever had the number 2, 1, 2 and 1st overall picks in the draft in successive years? The path was laid for Shero long before he ever got there. Yes, he's made bold moves with the roster he was given. Will Pittsburgh have long term success with him there? Do deep pockets help? One Cup does not make Shero the best GM in all of hockey. It makes him a GM with a Cup to his credit but then again, Jon Gruden has a Super Bowl ring as a coach yet he's an analyst on TV. Lots of guys inherit teams that are on the cusp and do great things, personally, I like to see what they can do long term with their assets and how many legitimate runs they make at championships. So far so good for Shero but at this point in time, he's got one Cup and two injured stars.

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02-22-2011, 08:58 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
And every time Poile has made a bold move, Forsberg, Witt and recently with Fisher, most people moaned about what he gave up. Can't have it both ways.

Let's also go back to an important fact, 4 1st round picks, in back to back to back to back years that netted them Malkin, Fleury, Crosby and Staal. Name me one team that has ever had the number 2, 1, 2 and 1st overall picks in the draft in successive years? The path was laid for Shero long before he ever got there. Yes, he's made bold moves with the roster he was given. Will Pittsburgh have long term success with him there? Do deep pockets help? One Cup does not make Shero the best GM in all of hockey. It makes him a GM with a Cup to his credit but then again, Jon Gruden has a Super Bowl ring as a coach yet he's an analyst on TV. Lots of guys inherit teams that are on the cusp and do great things, personally, I like to see what they can do long term with their assets and how many legitimate runs they make at championships. So far so good for Shero but at this point in time, he's got one Cup and two injured stars.
Agreed. Both sides have valid points.

I would like to say that other than the Forsberg trade - the other two trades were far from bold. The Forsberg trade was an over the top, lets go for it move. The Witt deal was poorly made and telegraphed for months. It was also filling a gaping hole on the team that Poile refused to address in the off-season and entire season up to that point. The Fisher move is similar to the Forsberg trade in that it is a 'go-for-it' type deal, but it is also a move that has been more than necessary for months as our injury riddled team has been lacking at least one scorer, probably two, the entire season.

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02-22-2011, 09:49 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
Agreed. Both sides have valid points.

I would like to say that other than the Forsberg trade - the other two trades were far from bold. The Forsberg trade was an over the top, lets go for it move. The Witt deal was poorly made and telegraphed for months. It was also filling a gaping hole on the team that Poile refused to address in the off-season and entire season up to that point. The Fisher move is similar to the Forsberg trade in that it is a 'go-for-it' type deal, but it is also a move that has been more than necessary for months as our injury riddled team has been lacking at least one scorer, probably two, the entire season.
THat's the funny thing about all of this. Dulz will bring up and rip Poile for the Forsberg trade at EVERY SINGLE opportunity because we gave up a good third liner\average second liner and a bust defensive prospect for a guy that came in and scored 15 points in 17 games, gave the team instant credibility, and outperformed most of the other "invested" veterans in his short time here. Somehow the Hossa trade is brilliant, but the Forsberg deal was a farce.

I'll give you that the Pens obviously went further that year, but Hossa only had to play a part. His supporting cast did their work. Forsberg came here and also played his part...the difference is that the supporting cast didn't. If anyone can maybe be called out for the blowup that year, it's Trotz...but not Poile.

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02-22-2011, 09:55 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
I prefer not to imagine alternate realities with hypothetical questions. That's your game.

Sure, Shero was handed talent. But, so was Waddel with Healtey, K-Chuck, etc. So was TB with Ricards, St. Louis, Lecaviler (and still finished dead last).

Yes, I think Shero would have made bolder moves than Poile as GM of the Preds. Very few of his bold moves have had anything to do with taking on additional salary. Even with Hossa, they were only on the hook for 1/5 of his salary. Oh dang, I entered your alternate reality.
you are also living in the fallacy of "the trade not made"

you and everyone else who makes these arguments assumes that if Poile had just been "bolder" he could have pulled off these tredae, but the truth is that you and I dont know what Poile has tried to do and not done because in the final analysis the price required to make a deal was either too steep or the other team was a rival (like in the recent Dallas trade) who wouldnt want to strenghten us.

some bold trades work out, some fall flat, but nobody knows whether the effects of a trade not made was actually good or bad.

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02-22-2011, 11:25 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
THat's the funny thing about all of this. Dulz will bring up and rip Poile for the Forsberg trade at EVERY SINGLE opportunity because we gave up a good third liner\average second liner and a bust defensive prospect for a guy that came in and scored 15 points in 17 games, gave the team instant credibility, and outperformed most of the other "invested" veterans in his short time here. Somehow the Hossa trade is brilliant, but the Forsberg deal was a farce.
Actually, I have a long said that I felt the Forsberg trade was mainly Leipold's doing.

The results of rentals are measured in playoff success. That's why the Hossa trade worked and the Forsberg trade didn't.

In terms of us not knowing what Poile has tried... "trying" doesn't really matter in my book; results do. It's pointless to speculate on what Poile has tried.

As I've always said, I think Poile is a decent GM for building a solid foundation. But, I also think there are reason his teams have plateaued in his 27 years as an NHL General Manager. His inability / unwillingness to pull off trades like the Neal trade is one of them.

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02-22-2011, 11:45 AM
  #336
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My problem with Poile (which are outweighed by his positives) is that he doesn't seem to be in touch with all the GMs. Dumont, Arnott both had to call him. This week he said the Col/Stl trade caught him totally off guard. I'd like to know that he's looked at the options more.

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02-22-2011, 11:49 AM
  #337
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Why would Dallas want CF instead of AG?
How the heck would we put BOTH those salaries on our PR?
With 2 Dmen out, trading a third, who do you think was gonna' man our 3rd pairing - 2 rookies in their first year? Even with the upside Neal would bring, Trotz approach/system aside, you think a team makes any kinda' run in the POs with a 3rd pair of 2 kids that would have 20 games under their belt?

I'd like a wing that could put the puck in the net consistently, but this board desperately wanted one and even though they were happy to get Fisher there was still moaning that we needed a wing, not a center. Good thing we got that center. I think the same thing kinda' applies to our D - while it woulda' been nice to move Franny for a gifted wing it's a good thing Poile has held onto those assets for a little longer than most of use would have.

Those are also results - the ability to fill openings with guys that can play, rather than fill with guys who are barely adequate AHLers, as many in the west have done all year.

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02-22-2011, 12:00 PM
  #338
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Why would Dallas want CF instead of AG?
How the heck would we put BOTH those salaries on our PR?
With 2 Dmen out, trading a third, who do you think was gonna' man our 3rd pairing - 2 rookies in their first year? Even with the upside Neal would bring, Trotz approach/system aside, you think a team makes any kinda' run in the POs with a 3rd pair of 2 kids that would have 20 games under their belt?

I'd like a wing that could put the puck in the net consistently, but this board desperately wanted one and even though they were happy to get Fisher there was still moaning that we needed a wing, not a center. Good thing we got that center. I think the same thing kinda' applies to our D - while it woulda' been nice to move Franny for a gifted wing it's a good thing Poile has held onto those assets for a little longer than most of use would have.

Those are also results - the ability to fill openings with guys that can play, rather than fill with guys who are barely adequate AHLers, as many in the west have done all year.
Ray Shero said that they couldn't afford to give up Golo without a d-man coming back to fill the spot...hence Matt Niskanen.

Bear in mind as well that Bouillon is reportedly pretty close to returning, and Sulzer could fill in as well, if there wasn't a better option out there than Sulzer\Niskanen.

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02-22-2011, 12:12 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
My problem with Poile (which are outweighed by his positives) is that he doesn't seem to be in touch with all the GMs. Dumont, Arnott both had to call him. This week he said the Col/Stl trade caught him totally off guard. I'd like to know that he's looked at the options more.
I agree, it seems as if he never goes for the unexpected move or just expects those players to be unavailable. Either way that should never stop you from making proposals or not talking about it.

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02-22-2011, 01:03 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
My problem with Poile (which are outweighed by his positives) is that he doesn't seem to be in touch with all the GMs. Dumont, Arnott both had to call him. This week he said the Col/Stl trade caught him totally off guard. I'd like to know that he's looked at the options more.
That's the sense I get. He's a passive guy, both in making moves, and I think it's his personality. I don't see him aggressively working the phones and being a hard-stance negotiator. The moves he usually does make are are the straightforward ones- Fishers availabe and wants to go to Nashville, ok, we'll give you a first. 1st for Witt. Arnott really wants to come to Nashville, ok, let's talk. etc. I also fear that his passive nature could have played a role in not being able to alleviate the Radulov situation. He seemed more in denial while it was happening ("we look forward to seeing Radulov at camp") than trying to step in a squash the situation. I really do think a more aggressive GM could have anticipated the problem, stepped in before it happened, and and squashed it. This of course is speculation.

More speculation-- Some of our better trades as a franchise came when Shero was assitant GM-- Sullivan, Dunham/Zidlikcy, getting 2nd rd compensatory picks. One has to wonder how much of a role and influence Shero had in the moves. Shero wasn't a noob when he was here, he had already been asst GM in Ottawa. Since Shero left, we didn't pull off a good trade for at least 4 years-- with Kosistynen being the only good trade since his depature.

The reality of Poile's 27 year career is that he's built good foundations, but his teams have plateaued. It is why Washington fired him. He's a decent GM and has done a lot of good for the organization, but he hasn't proved capable of getting a team to the next level-- with us or Washington.


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02-22-2011, 02:01 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
That's the sense I get. He's a passive guy, both in making moves, and I think it's his personality. I don't see him aggressively working the phones and being a hard-stance negotiator. The moves he usually does make are are the straightforward ones- Fishers availabe and wants to go to Nashville, ok, we'll give you a first. 1st for Witt. Arnott really wants to come to Nashville, ok, let's talk. etc. I also fear that his passive nature could have played a role in not being able to alleviate the Radulov situation. He seemed more in denial while it was happening ("we look forward to seeing Radulov at camp") than trying to step in a squash the situation. I really do think a more aggressive GM could have anticipated the problem, stepped in before it happened, and and squashed it. This of course is speculation.

More speculation-- Some of our better trades as a franchise came when Shero was assitant GM-- Sullivan, Dunham/Zidlikcy, getting 2nd rd compensatory picks. One has to wonder how much of a role and influence Shero had in the moves. Shero wasn't a noob when he was here, he had already been asst GM in Ottawa. Since Shero left, we didn't pull off a good trade for at least 4 years-- with Kosistynen being the only good trade since his depature.

The reality of Poile's 27 year career is that he's built good foundations, but his teams have plateaued. It is why Washington fired him. He's a decent GM and has done a lot of good for the organization, but he hasn't proved capable of getting a team to the next level-- with us or Washington.
That's a statistical fact ... how much longer do we wait for him to get more aggressive ... I don't think it'll ever happen

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02-22-2011, 02:27 PM
  #342
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I would like to see more aggression in the market from this team, try to go for that final piece, that one big star to put them over.

This is just my damn luck; I root for the Preds and the Rangers. One team has a billion dollars of cap and doesn't use it, and the other signs every free agent between here and the ****ing asteroid belt to ridiculous contracts. A midpoint would be nice

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02-22-2011, 03:18 PM
  #343
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I would like to see more aggression in the market from this team, try to go for that final piece, that one big star to put them over.

This is just my damn luck; I root for the Preds and the Rangers. One team has a billion dollars of cap and doesn't use it, and the other signs every free agent between here and the ****ing asteroid belt to ridiculous contracts. A midpoint would be nice
You have my sympathies. As a goalie, I am jealous that you get get watch Henrik Lundqvist, who IMO is the best goalie in the world at stealing games for his team. Then again, Rinne's hardly a scrub either.

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02-22-2011, 04:14 PM
  #344
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The moves he usually does make are are the straightforward ones- Fishers availabe and wants to go to Nashville, ok, we'll give you a first.
And Poile should get credit from you for contacting Ottawa about a week before the trade and asking if Fisher was available, and saying if he was, make sure to talk to Poile first. He wasn't available when Poile made the call. You can't claim it was clear, because Fisher himself said about that time he was staying, and a week later was very surprised by the news.

I think Poile catches some undeserved flack because he honestly says he was surprised on certain trades. Nobody can keep up with the possibilities about everyone, especially as most conversations among other GM's aren't going to be told to anyone else. But some GM's seem to want us to think they were in on everything, but just weren't interested. Poile probably gives an honest answer. If he was a blusterer he'd always claim to not be surprised.

If there was a recent good trade Poile missed on, then you'd think the other GM was partially at fault as well, for not checking with Poile about how high a price they could get for something Nashville needed. So maybe there wasn't a fit or some other reason the other GM didn't want to trade with Nashville.


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02-22-2011, 04:23 PM
  #345
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OP: "Hi, would like to see your ideas on who we should pick up (position, face) and who should we trade (face)..."

Any chance we could get back to the topic? Maybe start a Shero vs. Poile thread for this stuff or something...

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02-22-2011, 04:43 PM
  #346
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For a guy who was pretty passive, he got Fisher long before anyone else did. Soon as Fisher was moved a lot of other dominoes started falling. Hate that he's so passive that he's other GM's scrambling to start filling holes on their rosters because he took one of the best players available out of the equation. Damn that Poile.

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02-22-2011, 04:45 PM
  #347
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Per the trade board, Smid and his agent himself have heard that Nashville has serious interest, according to Edmonton papers.

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02-22-2011, 05:51 PM
  #348
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Now HERE is a deal worth doing
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p...1#post31143328

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02-22-2011, 06:06 PM
  #349
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OP: "Hi, would like to see your ideas on who we should pick up (position, face) and who should we trade (face)..."

Any chance we could get back to the topic?
Sure, I think we should get James Neal.

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02-22-2011, 06:09 PM
  #350
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I think we should have went after Penner, but maybe that's just me

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