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Should the Flyers Retire 88?

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Old
02-22-2011, 01:26 PM
  #76
mja
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If Pronger helps this team to a cup being it's # 1 dman, he'll probably get his number in the rafters. If he helps them get a couple, it'll be a lock. He's going to more than likely finish his career out here, which will represent more time in the end than with any other franchise except St. Louis.

Now, I'm in no way assuming a cup. I've been a fan far too long to engage in such folly.

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02-22-2011, 02:08 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
If Pronger helps this team to a cup being it's # 1 dman, he'll probably get his number in the rafters. If he helps them get a couple, it'll be a lock. He's going to more than likely finish his career out here, which will represent more time in the end than with any other franchise except St. Louis.

Now, I'm in no way assuming a cup. I've been a fan far too long to engage in such folly.
And I think St. Louis is the franchise that would really have a bigger stake in Pronger's legacy. Even if he wins a championship here, as our best defenseman, he was a more important to St. Louis. He was their best player by a mile...and while he's important to us, the supporting cast he has will go as far in winning a Cup (hypothetically) as he will. The importance of Timonen cannot be overstated enough on this team, the forward depth is incredible...while Pronger matters to us, he is not the team's head-and-shoulders-above-everyone-else MVP that he was for St. Louis, for so long.

That's how I see it, anyway.

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02-22-2011, 02:14 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
If Pronger helps this team to a cup being it's # 1 dman, he'll probably get his number in the rafters. If he helps them get a couple, it'll be a lock. He's going to more than likely finish his career out here, which will represent more time in the end than with any other franchise except St. Louis.

Now, I'm in no way assuming a cup. I've been a fan far too long to engage in such folly.
I think it's debatable... I don't necessarily like leaching into the legacy of a player when he has so much attached to another organization.

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02-22-2011, 02:21 PM
  #79
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Mark Howe is the only guy in the franchise who has not won a Cup that might deserve to have his number retired. Not a huge fan of the +/-, but he played in Philly for 10 years and not once was he a minus, his lowest number was a +7 and he played in 52 games.

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02-22-2011, 02:24 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I think it's debatable... I don't necessarily like leaching into the legacy of a player when he has so much attached to another organization.
At the end of the day, Pronger *could* wind up playing 8 seasons in Philly. He played nine seasons with the Blues (where he was obviously a more dominant presence, as well).

He'll likely never win a Hart Trophy with the Flyers but, if the team bags a couple of championships, I could see Philly entertain the thought of retiring his number.

By no means would it be a lock, though.

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02-22-2011, 02:29 PM
  #81
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I think jersey retirements should only be reserved for those that make it into the HHOF. If Lindros makes it in then I hope they do retire it.

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Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
I personally don't think it should be Pronger. Even if we win a Cup before he retires, I still wouldn't want it to be Pronger, I don't think.

When I think of jerseys being retired by a franchise, I think of a player who exemplified that franchise for a long and significant portion of his career. Pronger being here for only the last 5 years, having already won a Cup elsewhere...I don't know. I just don't know that, when Pronger's career is all said and done, he will only or mostly be thought of as a Flyer.

In my estimation, to be retired by this franchise, you must have made your career here, won a championship, and been a truly outstanding player...barring significant unfortunate circumstances (Ashbee).
I think a case could be made if Pronger would be able to play at a relatively high level through the duration of his contract here and wins the Cup. Otherwise I would say no.

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02-22-2011, 02:31 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
At the end of the day, Pronger *could* wind up playing 8 seasons in Philly. He played nine seasons with the Blues (where he was obviously a more dominant presence, as well).

He'll likely never win a Hart Trophy with the Flyers but, if the team bags a couple of championships, I could see Philly entertain the thought of retiring his number.

By no means would it be a lock, though.
In fairness, I will also never own the jersey of a player the Flyers didn't draft and/or acquire before he made the NHL. I appreciate guys when they are here, but don't like the split legacy (part of what irks me about Gagne...). For example, Roenick was great while he was here... but he's a Blackhawk.

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02-22-2011, 02:37 PM
  #83
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If we are talking about future numbers getting retired because of prospective Cups, I think you have to look to the guys who will likely be here for the longest time. If Richards-Carter-Giroux are all on Cup winning teams and they continue to produce they way they are now, its in the bag to see their names hanging from the rafters. Same thing with Pronger-Timonen. If Boosh or Bob becomes the franchise goalie that Parent was, we could see one of their names up there. Outside of those players I don't think anyone really has a chance.

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Old
02-22-2011, 02:39 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
At the end of the day, Pronger *could* wind up playing 8 seasons in Philly. He played nine seasons with the Blues (where he was obviously a more dominant presence, as well).

He'll likely never win a Hart Trophy with the Flyers but, if the team bags a couple of championships, I could see Philly entertain the thought of retiring his number.

By no means would it be a lock, though.
It *could* happen, and I'm not saying I don't think Pronger could not or necessarily should not have his number retired if he helps us win...but as I was saying, I feel like someone who was made into a star and played the majority share of his career for the Blues ought to be retired by the Blues before he'd be retired here...that team brought him to the league, and that's where he developed and played through most of his prime.

Here, the extra Cup would just feel like it was tacked on to the end of his career, or a second chapter, if you looked at his body of work before.

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02-22-2011, 02:41 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
If we are talking about future numbers getting retired because of prospective Cups, I think you have to look to the guys who will likely be here for the longest time. If Richards-Carter-Giroux are all on Cup winning teams and they continue to produce they way they are now, its in the bag to see their names hanging from the rafters. Same thing with Pronger-Timonen. If Boosh or Bob becomes the franchise goalie that Parent was, we could see one of their names up there. Outside of those players I don't think anyone really has a chance.
Boucher does not even almost have a chance....

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02-22-2011, 03:21 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
In fairness, I will also never own the jersey of a player the Flyers didn't draft and/or acquire before he made the NHL. I appreciate guys when they are here, but don't like the split legacy (part of what irks me about Gagne...). For example, Roenick was great while he was here... but he's a Blackhawk.
That's an interesting take...

Mark Howe is the first name that comes to mind as someone who had a strong legacy pre-Flyers but also cemented a strong Flyers legacy. You wouldn't buy his jersey?

For non-Flyers, Messier is another example of a player who has two clearly defined eras of his career. I remember his glory days in Edmonton as much as his legacy with the Rangers.

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02-22-2011, 03:24 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
It *could* happen, and I'm not saying I don't think Pronger could not or necessarily should not have his number retired if he helps us win...but as I was saying, I feel like someone who was made into a star and played the majority share of his career for the Blues ought to be retired by the Blues before he'd be retired here...that team brought him to the league, and that's where he developed and played through most of his prime.
Here, the extra Cup would just feel like it was tacked on to the end of his career, or a second chapter, if you looked at his body of work before.
Hartford drafted and brought Pronger to the NHL, but I get what you're saying.

I don't know what standards the Blues use to retire their numbers but, if he meets their criteria, I would agree that his number should be retired there before Philly (and I'm not saying Pronger's number should be retired in Philly).

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02-22-2011, 03:28 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
That's an interesting take...

Mark Howe is the first name that comes to mind as someone who had a strong legacy pre-Flyers but also cemented a strong Flyers legacy. You wouldn't buy his jersey?

For non-Flyers, Messier is another example of a player who has two clearly defined eras of his career. I remember his glory days in Edmonton as much as his legacy with the Rangers.
Howe is an interesting case just because that was with the WHA divide and everything else going on. However, no, I probably wouldn't get his jersey if I'd really been around then (was born in '81). Obviously the bulk of his NHL career was here in Philly.

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02-22-2011, 03:43 PM
  #89
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If the Flyers win a cup in the next 10 years, Richards will have his jersey number next to Clarke.

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02-22-2011, 03:51 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by infidelappel View Post
Boucher does not even almost have a chance....
You say that now, but if he becomes the full-time goalie over the next few years (which I know is unlikely) and they win a couple cups, I'd bet money he gets retired. Obviously, that would most likely be Bob turning into the #1, but injuries or streakiness could thrust Boosh into that role. It is an absurdly long shot, but multiple Cup winning goalies will always be remembered and revered (especially a goalie that breaks this long streak then wins another). I know a ton of **** has to happen for this to even have a chance at having a chance, but its possible.

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02-22-2011, 04:00 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You say that now, but if he becomes the full-time goalie over the next few years (which I know is unlikely) and they win a couple cups, I'd bet money he gets retired. Obviously, that would most likely be Bob turning into the #1, but injuries or streakiness could thrust Boosh into that role. It is an absurdly long shot, but multiple Cup winning goalies will always be remembered and revered (especially a goalie that breaks this long streak then wins another). I know a ton of **** has to happen for this to even have a chance at having a chance, but its possible.
The bar is clearly higher than simply winning a couple of Cups. The only guys with their jersey in the rafters from the Cup teams are the HoFers. Boucher is 34 now with a career losing record.

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02-22-2011, 04:15 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You say that now, but if he becomes the full-time goalie over the next few years (which I know is unlikely) and they win a couple cups, I'd bet money he gets retired. Obviously, that would most likely be Bob turning into the #1, but injuries or streakiness could thrust Boosh into that role. It is an absurdly long shot, but multiple Cup winning goalies will always be remembered and revered (especially a goalie that breaks this long streak then wins another). I know a ton of **** has to happen for this to even have a chance at having a chance, but its possible.
Even if Boucher wins a cup for the next 3 years and is the bonafide starter for all 3, I still don't think he has a chance.

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02-22-2011, 04:16 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
If the Flyers win a cup in the next 10 years, Richards will have his jersey number next to Clarke.
There is almost no question...unless some serious sh-- goes down with Richards, a championship or two will almost guarantee him HHoF, Flyers HoF, and a banner in the rafters...


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
You say that now, but if he becomes the full-time goalie over the next few years (which I know is unlikely) and they win a couple cups, I'd bet money he gets retired. Obviously, that would most likely be Bob turning into the #1, but injuries or streakiness could thrust Boosh into that role. It is an absurdly long shot, but multiple Cup winning goalies will always be remembered and revered (especially a goalie that breaks this long streak then wins another). I know a ton of **** has to happen for this to even have a chance at having a chance, but its possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The bar is clearly higher than simply winning a couple of Cups. The only guys with their jersey in the rafters from the Cup teams are the HoFers. Boucher is 34 now with a career losing record.

As Jester pointed out, just getting his name on the Cup won't be enough. Even if we win the next two Cups, Boucher will not go into the rafters. Everyone knows he wouldn't be the reason we won, and after spending a majority of his career as a backup on other teams around the league?

Not even a chance. Boosh will likely not go down as one of the top 5 best goalies the Flyers have ever had...even if he does win us Cups, to have his jersey in the rafters when guys like Lindbergh and Hextall do not would just be criminal. And I'm not even saying those guys should have them hanging, but they should a lot more than Boosh would...and I like Boosh.

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02-22-2011, 04:38 PM
  #94
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Yup, His number will be raised. 44 in St. Louis. 25 in Anaheim. Maybe 44 in Edmonton too. Unless he carries this team to consecutive cup titles before his contract/career runs out, he won't be in our rafters. This team is built so he won't have to carry us.
Uhhhh....you do remember how he left town right? Or are you talking about his jersey being raised onto an effigy and burned at the stake next to the Grtezky statue.

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02-22-2011, 05:01 PM
  #95
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No he shouldn't and he was my favorite player growing up. Jersey numbers should be retired for the best of the best that are in the HHOF. I just feel as though some teams use retiring jerseys as a cheap way to put some butts in the seats for one night.

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02-22-2011, 05:30 PM
  #96
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How in the world can anyone say anything bad about Ed Snider's tenor as owner of the Flyers. He's one of the best owners in all of sports and respected throughout the league for how the organ-i-zation is run. He built the buildings, brought the team to philly and kept it very competitive for almost every year since inception. The man is an institution.
If he and Clarke didn't live in the past for 30 years, this team would have many, many more cups.

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02-22-2011, 05:38 PM
  #97
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If he and Clarke didn't live in the past for 30 years, this team would have many, many more cups.
So, this team has the best record in the NHL as far as winning hockey games in the last 30 years, and you are convinced the team would have done better without 'em?

Clarke I could maybe see the argument... but Snider is one of the best owners in North American sports. You live in Boston, you could have had that running the team for the last 30 years... would you have made a trade? How about the NYR? Islanders?

It's always greener...

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02-22-2011, 05:52 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, this team has the best record in the NHL as far as winning hockey games in the last 30 years, and you are convinced the team would have done better without 'em?

Clarke I could maybe see the argument... but Snider is one of the best owners in North American sports. You live in Boston, you could have had that running the team for the last 30 years... would you have made a trade? How about the NYR? Islanders?

It's always greener...
Sniders only failing is that he listens to Clarke. I probably shouldn't have included him.

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02-22-2011, 05:53 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by sobrien View Post
Yup, His number will be raised. 44 in St. Louis. 25 in Anaheim. Maybe 44 in Edmonton too. Unless he carries this team to consecutive cup titles before his contract/career runs out, he won't be in our rafters. This team is built so he won't have to carry us.
I wasn't talking about his number being retired. I'm saying that when alls said and done. He'll have been the best D-man ever to have worn orange and black.

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02-22-2011, 05:55 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
If the Flyers win a cup in the next 10 years, Richards will have his jersey number next to Clarke.
I read "Clarke" as "Carle" at first glance. You can imagine my confusion

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