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Old
02-23-2011, 09:51 AM
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Claude Giroux: Franchise Player...?

Claude Giroux has really proved himself over the last year to be our most talented forward. He's also, on most nights, our most consistent and hardest working player. 'roo' has shown to ability to, when things aren't going right and seem lost, take things in his own hands and make something happen. This was evident last night when he took charge with another monster shift late in the 3rd period and worked his ass off to pop in a goal on a 2nd oppurtunity.

My question is: is Claude Giroux making the transition from an obvious star in the making to what we can consider a franchise player?

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02-23-2011, 09:55 AM
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I don't know about that. It is too early to consider him that. I think Richards is THE guy for this team over the next 5-10 years. Giroux and Carter will be around, but I think Richards will be the backbone of this team for the foreseeable future.

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02-23-2011, 09:58 AM
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Mike Richards is the best forward on this team... and it isn't close.

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02-23-2011, 09:58 AM
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the kid is an absolute beast, not only does he have elite skill, and I do mean elite, he also has the intangibles that quite a few of the top talents lack. He always seems to just want it more than the other guy, I rarely see him loose a puck battle, and when games are on the line he always seems to come up big.

The contract homer signed him to is an absolute steal... I just wish we could have locked him really long term like carter and richards, because at this rate when his 3 years expire he will comand huge money.

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02-23-2011, 09:59 AM
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What about Briere , he sure step up in the playoff

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02-23-2011, 10:00 AM
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I'm not sure we will be able to afford him in three years, with Homer's usual cap skills. Time will tell.

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02-23-2011, 10:03 AM
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I'm not sure we will be able to afford him in three years, with Homer's usual cap skills. Time will tell.
there will be alot of overturn by then so its almost impossible to judge.... But im pretty sure everyone in the organization knows they gotta keep him... I think they offer him a similar contract to richards and carter

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02-23-2011, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Orangecrush18 View Post
the kid is an absolute beast, not only does he have elite skill, and I do mean elite, he also has the intangibles that quite a few of the top talents lack. He always seems to just want it more than the other guy, I rarely see him loose a puck battle, and when games are on the line he always seems to come up big.

The contract homer signed him to is an absolute steal... I just wish we could have locked him really long term like carter and richards, because at this rate when his 3 years expire he will comand huge money.
He has very good offensive skill, but if you look at point production it isn't like he's all that different from a number of our forwards. He's flashy, but flash doesn't always translate to points (like when he cut through the D last night, but ended up below the goal line without a chance at making a play on net).

He gives a fair amount away in other areas of the game, which hurt his value in comparison to some of our other forwards. He competes, but he isn't all that strong defensively (exacerbated by his willingness to try some dangerous passes at times). He's 9th amongst our forwards in +/- ON, and his regular linemate Carter is 2nd (in all seriousness, Carter has a claim to being our best all around even strength forward yet again).

Richards, however, is just so damn good in all facets of the game that no one else can really compare to him right now. He's putting up points despite playing, once again, with a poo-poo platter of linemates. He plays one of the harder shifts on the team (much closer to evenly distributed than it has been in the past), is the best PK'er on the team (and one of the best in the league) and is a good PP player (though, we need get our PP as a unit organized). Not only that, Richards brings a physicality that despite all his effort, Giroux doesn't really bring -- he isn't going to blow someone up in open ice.

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02-23-2011, 10:12 AM
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He has very good offensive skill, but if you look at point production it isn't like he's all that different from a number of our forwards. He's flashy, but flash doesn't always translate to points (like when he cut through the D last night, but ended up below the goal line without a chance at making a play on net).

He gives a fair amount away in other areas of the game, which hurt his value in comparison to some of our other forwards. He competes, but he isn't all that strong defensively (exacerbated by his willingness to try some dangerous passes at times). He's 9th amongst our forwards in +/- ON, and his regular linemate Carter is 2nd (in all seriousness, Carter has a claim to being our best all around even strength forward yet again).

Richards, however, is just so damn good in all facets of the game that no one else can really compare to him right now. He's putting up points despite playing, once again, with a poo-poo platter of linemates. He plays one of the harder shifts on the team (much closer to evenly distributed than it has been in the past), is the best PK'er on the team (and one of the best in the league) and is a good PP player (though, we need get our PP as a unit organized). Not only that, Richards brings a physicality that despite all his effort, Giroux doesn't really bring -- he isn't going to blow someone up in open ice.
Very true, im not debating that richards is our best forward, because he can probably claim to be top 5 all around hockey player in the world.

I just think the ceiling for what giroux can do offensively is higher given his skill set. And while he is small I have noticed him lay out quite a few big hits this year. The game against ottawa where he completely blew someone up? and even answered it with a fight

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02-23-2011, 10:25 AM
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Mike Richards is the best forward on this team... and it isn't close.
Two years ago I would've agreed, but right now Giroux and Richards are very close.

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02-23-2011, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He's 9th amongst our forwards in +/- ON, and his regular linemate Carter is 2nd (in all seriousness, Carter has a claim to being our best all around even strength forward yet again).
Carter is and has been our best even strength forward the last few seasons. Richards is our best all-around forward, although the I think the difference is closer this year, because Richards hasn't been as good on the power play as he usually is.

They need to put consistant power play units on the ice the last 20 games. It's the one area of our game that needs to be fixed before the playoffs.

I would just go with 3 defenseman: Pronger, Timonen and Meszaros.

Forwards should be: Richards, Carter, Giroux, Briere, Hartnell and Leino in some combination. With JVR getting the occasional PP time.

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02-23-2011, 10:27 AM
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Maybe I didn't clarify enough. I am well aware that mike Richards is the face of this franchise right now, and is clearly our most valuable asset. My question is, is Claude Giroux poised to take that title from him over the next few years? As in, when people think of the flyers, they think Claude Giroux.

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02-23-2011, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Orangecrush18 View Post
Very true, im not debating that richards is our best forward, because he can probably claim to be top 5 all around hockey player in the world.

I just think the ceiling for what giroux can do offensively is higher given his skill set. And while he is small I have noticed him lay out quite a few big hits this year. The game against ottawa where he completely blew someone up? and even answered it with a fight
He throws hits, but he's more of the catch the guy around the corners area with his head down type of hitter. He also has a low center of gravity and is strong on his skates, so can surprise people. I don't think you're going to see him delivering anything on the order of some of the hits we've seen from Richards, though... that's a skill you gotta come with.

I don't think you're going to see a ton of growth from Giroux offensively from where he's at now. In a good year, similar to a couple of our other guys, he can probably be an 80+ pt guy, but he doesn't seem likely to put up high goal totals, which is what you need to really separate yourself into the upper echelon (unless you're an otherworldly passer, a la Thornton/Forsberg). If you recall, early in the year he was racking up goals via breakaways, but that pretty much stopped once defenses got their **** organized (he had all of his shorties in the first month of the season, I believe).

In fairness, he's producing to a clip like I predicted he would in previous years as far as likely totals, so I'm a bit biased as far as him meeting expectation.

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02-23-2011, 10:30 AM
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Carter is and has been our best even strength forward the last few seasons. Richards is our best all-around forward, although the I think the difference is closer this year, because Richards hasn't been as good on the power play as he usually is.

They need to put consistant power play units on the ice the last 20 games. It's the one area of our game that needs to be fixed before the playoffs.

I would just go with 3 defenseman: Pronger, Timonen and Meszaros.

Forwards should be: Richards, Carter, Giroux, Briere, Hartnell and Leino in some combination. With JVR getting the occasional PP time.
I wouldn't even put Mez out there right now. Let Richards be the other point guy, he's plain dirty there. Get JvR/that other random forward some more time, split up Briere and Giroux more, and just start moving the damn puck quicker.

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02-23-2011, 10:34 AM
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Two years ago I would've agreed, but right now Giroux and Richards are very close.
The vast majority of Richards' shifts involve carrying around Nodl, who neuters a ton of offense. The most common guys on his other side are JVR (who has been both good and bad this year), and Zherdev (who when he isn't scoring goals is accomplishing nothing).

Giroux has played 50+% of his shifts with Jeff Carter, the best ES forward on this team.

Giroux has 4 more points than Richards this year. Jeff Carter has more goals alone than Nodl and JVR combined.

Richards is one of the best defensive forwards in the league, an area where Giroux is not particularly strong.

They are close offensively, but Richards separates himself elsewhere. Giroux is a good PK'er, Richards is an exceptional PK'er. So on, and so forth.

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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Carter is and has been our best even strength forward the last few seasons. Richards is our best all-around forward, although the I think the difference is closer this year, because Richards hasn't been as good on the power play as he usually is.

They need to put consistant power play units on the ice the last 20 games. It's the one area of our game that needs to be fixed before the playoffs.

I would just go with 3 defenseman: Pronger, Timonen and Meszaros.

Forwards should be: Richards, Carter, Giroux, Briere, Hartnell and Leino in some combination. With JVR getting the occasional PP time.
I really wish they'd go back to the Timonen-Richards PP setup with Briere on the left wall. Then they can make a different PP with Pronger-Meszaros or whomever.

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02-23-2011, 10:36 AM
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He throws hits, but he's more of the catch the guy around the corners area with his head down type of hitter. He also has a low center of gravity and is strong on his skates, so can surprise people. I don't think you're going to see him delivering anything on the order of some of the hits we've seen from Richards, though... that's a skill you gotta come with.

I don't think you're going to see a ton of growth from Giroux offensively from where he's at now. In a good year, similar to a couple of our other guys, he can probably be an 80+ pt guy, but he doesn't seem likely to put up high goal totals, which is what you need to really separate yourself into the upper echelon (unless you're an otherworldly passer, a la Thornton/Forsberg). If you recall, early in the year he was racking up goals via breakaways, but that pretty much stopped once defenses got their **** organized (he had all of his shorties in the first month of the season, I believe).

In fairness, he's producing to a clip like I predicted he would in previous years as far as likely totals, so I'm a bit biased as far as him meeting expectation.
I disagree, I think it's pretty evident how much Giroux has improved from when he started his first full NHL season, to the level of play he's at now. The type of player that Giroux is and the skillset that he brings is the sort that requires confidence and a lot of it. Giroux is a confident kid, and will just get better as he gets more familiar with the league and the teams he's playing against. I think if he gets signed to a long term contract, in a few years when he's solely relied on for more offense, I can see him putting up a couple 100 point campaigns.

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02-23-2011, 10:40 AM
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I disagree, I think it's pretty evident how much Giroux has improved from when he started his first full NHL season, to the level of play he's at now. The type of player that Giroux is and the skillset that he brings is the sort that requires confidence and a lot of it. Giroux is a confident kid, and will just get better as he gets more familiar with the league and the teams he's playing against. I think if he gets signed to a long term contract, in a few years when he's solely relied on for more offense, I can see him putting up a couple 100 point campaigns.
He's clearly improved... he couldn't make the team out of camp a couple years ago.

As discussed in the 100 pt thread a couple weeks ago or whatever, those expectations are rather lofty given Giroux's age and what he's done to this point. The fact of the matter is that he's in his prime scoring years right now. There might be some improvement going forward, but it's a big leap from 75 pt pace (22 guys last year) to 100 pts (4 guys). And remember, smaller players tend to develop faster than bigger guys.

I really see a Scott Gomez type production rate from him, which is very good, but not quite to that level. If he wants to get to 100, he's going to have to improve his shot considerably (both release, and power he gets on his shot)... would also help if he got to play with someone that could pot a metric ton of goals, a la Backstrom in Washington.

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02-23-2011, 10:50 AM
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Giroux is a franchise player on this team, Richards is a good player but as time goes on his job title will probably be more like Brind'Amour, not to be counted on for scoring but for matchups. This seems to be what Laviolette is doing with him at this time.

Giroux can change a game on one shift with his skills and is willing to sacrifice his body as well as being able to play in all situations as well as being utilized on the wing or as he is being used now at center. Richards had that fire but seems to have revved it back a little over the last two years. Both are good players and should be considered two of the unmoveable pieces of the core group.

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02-23-2011, 10:55 AM
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In a sense, yes.

Giroux may not necessarily be THE guy you build an entire roster around, but he is an elite playmaker, and should be a top-flight forward.

I'd want to hang onto Giroux above any forward not named Richards, and would hope we can keep him for his full career. So while Richie is our true 'franchise player,' Giroux is certainly a secondary one.

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02-23-2011, 10:57 AM
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Giroux is a franchise player on this team, Richards is a good player but as time goes on his job title will probably be more like Brind'Amour, not to be counted on for scoring but for matchups. This seems to be what Laviolette is doing with him at this time.

Giroux can change a game on one shift with his skills and is willing to sacrifice his body as well as being able to play in all situations as well as being utilized on the wing or as he is being used now at center. Richards had that fire but seems to have revved it back a little over the last two years. Both are good players and should be considered two of the unmoveable pieces of the core group.
Ah, yeah, Brind'Amour was the franchise player on Lavi's team that won the Cup. Staal was putting up some monster point totals, but Brind'Amour was far more important to that team. Just cuz you put up points, doesn't mean you're more valuable than another guy.

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02-23-2011, 11:00 AM
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Ah, yeah, Brind'Amour was the franchise player on Lavi's team that won the Cup. Staal was putting up some monster point totals, but Brind'Amour was far more important to that team. Just cuz you put up points, doesn't mean you're more valuable than another guy.
Kind of irrelevant. When all is said and done, Staal and Brind'Amour will have been the face of the franchise over two different decades, really...

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02-23-2011, 11:09 AM
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Kind of irrelevant. When all is said and done, Staal and Brind'Amour will have been the face of the franchise over two different decades, really...
Oh, sure, and Staal is a better player today than he was then. But to suggest that Brind'Amour had taken a backseat or something...

Brind'Amour played 24.18 a game that year. 24 *ing minutes a game from a forward! And that's the regular season!

He played 23.52 a game in the playoffs.

So, Cartsiephan needs to slow down with the revisionist history a bit here.

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02-23-2011, 11:14 AM
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Oh, sure, and Staal is a better player today than he was then. But to suggest that Brind'Amour had taken a backseat or something...

Brind'Amour played 24.18 a game that year. 24 *ing minutes a game from a forward! And that's the regular season!

He played 23.52 a game in the playoffs.

So, Cartsiephan needs to slow down with the revisionist history a bit here.
Fair enough. But even so, he was still most valuable for his shutdown abilities than for his point-getting, even though he played a metric butt-ton of minutes. Everyone knows that Brindy was the driving force of that team...but comparing him to Staal at that time in terms of being a franchise player is just pointless.

More valuable to that team, yes. But the comparison just doesn't translate to the 'franchise player' argument the way Giroux vs. Richards would.

And in any case, I think Richards would still be the heart-and-soul of the team, even if Giroux eclipses his offensive importance. So I'm not disagreeing with you saying that Richards is our franchise player, just pointing out that the Brindy/Staal argument in general is irrelevant (and yes, Cartsiephan brought it up, so I'm not blaming you).

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02-23-2011, 11:17 AM
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Fair enough. But even so, he was still most valuable for his shutdown abilities than for his point-getting, even though he played a metric butt-ton of minutes. Everyone knows that Brindy was the driving force of that team...but comparing him to Staal at that time in terms of being a franchise player is just pointless.

More valuable to that team, yes. But the comparison just doesn't translate to the 'franchise player' argument the way Giroux vs. Richards would.

And in any case, I think Richards would still be the heart-and-soul of the team, even if Giroux eclipses his offensive importance. So I'm not disagreeing with you saying that Richards is our franchise player, just pointing out that the Brindy/Staal argument in general is irrelevant (and yes, Cartsiephan brought it up, so I'm not blaming you).
Well, it's fundamental if you're trying to make an "offensive output equates to franchise player" argument, which apparently he was and is similar to the potential Giroux v. Richards (though, at the moment that is silly given that they're essentially equals in offensive production).

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02-23-2011, 11:25 AM
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Well, it's fundamental if you're trying to make an "offensive output equates to franchise player" argument, which apparently he was and is similar to the potential Giroux v. Richards (though, at the moment that is silly given that they're essentially equals in offensive production).
Brind'Amour vs. Staal still isn't even that useful of a comparison. That Staal - in just his second full season - played less than Brind'Amour and in a different role does not mean his value as a franchise player may necessarily be less. Different times, different team makeup...Staal's legacy to the franchise may well be just as important as Rod's, so who's to say at this point?

As for Giroux vs. Richards...it varies from franchise to franchise whether a two-way guy or an offensive guy becomes your most important player. If Giroux continues to get better and better (possible, if implausible), and turns into an elite offensive forward, it's likely he would be a franchise player. Maybe not for us, because Richards is the captain and fits the Flyers identity, but he could be the type of player any number of other teams would build a franchise around.

Not saying it will happen, but it's possible and just depends on what you value most on your team.

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