HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Nashville Predators
Notices

Is it time to blame Trotz's system?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-23-2011, 11:15 AM
  #1
triggrman
HFBoards Sponsor
 
triggrman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 16,964
vCash: 500
Is it time to blame Trotz's system?

I mean, really every player we get ends up looking exactly the same. For players to score they have to be creative, to be creative you have to take some chances, we never do, ever. Is the reason we don't score due to lack of talent or lack of coaching. "Radulov proves...." he did, for one season, but was constantly blasted in the media by Trotz much like Legwand and Erat. Why is Sullivan never called out? I'm glad he's not but he seems to get a pass from Trotz. Dumont doesn't get that pass, why not? It's not like Sully is a good defensive player either.

I differ from most, I think we have much better talent than we show. And I think Trotz chokes it sometimes.

I'd just like to see us more aggressive offensively. I'd like to see the top lines get top line minutes and top offensive players (Wilson) moved to the top offensive lines.

triggrman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 11:20 AM
  #2
JR303
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 189
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
I mean, really every player we get ends up looking exactly the same. For players to score they have to be creative, to be creative you have to take some chances, we never do, ever. Is the reason we don't score due to lack of talent or lack of coaching. "Radulov proves...." he did, for one season, but was constantly blasted in the media by Trotz much like Legwand and Erat. Why is Sullivan never called out? I'm glad he's not but he seems to get a pass from Trotz. Dumont doesn't get that pass, why not? It's not like Sully is a good defensive player either.

I differ from most, I think we have much better talent than we show. And I think Trotz chokes it sometimes.

I'd just like to see us more aggressive offensively. I'd like to see the top lines get top line minutes and top offensive players (Wilson) moved to the top offensive lines.
Felt this way for years, but in all honesty, it's been kinda hard to argue with some of his results. I'm neither a Trotz apologist, nor a basher, but I'd like to see him let our "all-world" defense and goaltending handle themselves while giving our forwards a much longer leash to be creative. Many of us ***** about cherry pickers, but who wouldn't want one on our team from time to time?

JR303 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 11:30 AM
  #3
deanwormer
Registered User
 
deanwormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 951
vCash: 500
Well, PK had a couple pretty good seasons under "trotz system"; one of those years the whole 9/10/11 line clicked pretty well. You mentioned Rads, at least for one season. Sully had a couple good ones, too. Heck, that big loaf of a former captain put up 30+ goals, and Dumont had a couple good seasons, too. I do think Trotz system can play in their heads sometimes; just watch Leggy - he'll play a strong offensive game several in a row, then we'll end up with a team like SJ and he'll revert to his "smitty role", thinking D first and backchecking and never getting into the O. He's not the only one, but he's the most noticeable, I think.

If there is "trotz blame" here, it's probably "too loyal", or at least too long. Sully is hurting us something awful; not just his personal play, but the role he has him in. Don't wanna' waive him - fine. Don't wanna' permascratch him - ok. Playing him top 6 mins and Wilson and others getting 4th line scraps - not good for this year, not good long term. Cutting Dumont's time and not Arnott's? Sure, Arny was still scoring last year where JP just fell off the map, but Arny gave away enough with his lackadaisical approach that I don't think it was worth it.

deanwormer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 11:38 AM
  #4
Fortheloveofthegame
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1,189
vCash: 500
Wow, you guys are hitting it right on here. This is exactly what I was thinking of why your team struggles to "create" offense. The offensive, creative players are getting stifled by this system! You are right, they all start looking the same after a while. The "dump and chase" rather than trying some creativity to get a TRUE scoring chance.
The game would be much more exciting to watch.
The problem is, you might not make playoffs......but you also might!

Fortheloveofthegame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 11:39 AM
  #5
triggrman
HFBoards Sponsor
 
triggrman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 16,964
vCash: 500
Please do not mistake this for a FIRE TROTZ post, those are about as useless as a turtle neck for Trotz.

I do not think he should get fired but I think he has to adjust his system.

triggrman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 11:54 AM
  #6
Roman Yoshi
Ellis too short
 
Roman Yoshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Franklin, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 4,673
vCash: 500
All I am going to say... how much sense does it make to draft all of these puck moving defensemen if they never get a chance to produce in this system and we never trade them... just curious.

Roman Yoshi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 12:02 PM
  #7
predfan24
Registered User
 
predfan24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,115
vCash: 500
I think there is a fine line between being a good defensive team and perhaps going overboard with that thinking and I think we toe that line sometimes and yes I think it stifles offensive creativity sometimes. I'm with you I think we have enough talent on this team to be an average offensive team. It does seem like at time we do start to "feel it" offensively and the team will display skill and creativity were not used to seeing and perhaps we will go a game or two with good offensive production. Then as soon as we start to struggle a bit to score goals again it's almost like we go into shutdown mode and try to win games 1-0 again.

Can't argue with the results though.

predfan24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 12:03 PM
  #8
glenngineer
Registered User
 
glenngineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Spring Hill, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 3,923
vCash: 500
Trig, you can equate it to the Devils. Lemaire leaves, they bring in McLean, they suck. They bring back Lemaire but are playing a different system than last year and what McLean was employing and they've been on a tear. Lemaire is a great coach in that he sees what his roster is and makes changes accordingly. Trotz takes a roster and tries to mash them in to roles that just don't fit. Lemaire in particular talked about Kovy and said you don't play a dump and chase game with a guy like him, you let the thoroughbred show his skills. One, it makes Kovy, two it allows the players to do what they do best. We take guys and play such a strict system that they are so focused on it that one, it's not fun and two, it stifles any sort of creativity. Look at the PP as a perfect example. For the last bunch of years the PP has struggled. There is talk of change yet it doesn't happen.

Trotz to me has never had the ability or willingness to make changes as much as he should and the changes he does use make us all scratch our head. While it's amazing to see what Trotz can do over an 82 game schedule, we aren't going to get over the hump with him as the head coach. I can't say that for sure obviously but he hasn't done anything to make me go, yeah, this is the year we get to the second round of the playoffs. Until someone or something is changed about the staff or the system, these conversations will continue to happen.

glenngineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 12:22 PM
  #9
SK74 Snipes
Registered User
 
SK74 Snipes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Franklin,TN
Country: United States
Posts: 405
vCash: 500
Its hard to blame Trotz, Lets ride this out till the playoffs and if we dont make it, then we can point fingers.

SK74 Snipes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 12:30 PM
  #10
Milly79
Registered User
 
Milly79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Columbia, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 351
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SK74 Snipes View Post
Lets ride this out till the playoffs and if we dont make it, then we can point fingers.
Happens regardless wether we make the playoffs or not.

Milly79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 12:34 PM
  #11
RollingPredFan
Registered User
 
RollingPredFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 632
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Please do not mistake this for a FIRE TROTZ post, those are about as useless as a turtle neck for Trotz.

I do not think he should get fired but I think he has to adjust his system.
Brilliant.

RollingPredFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 12:47 PM
  #12
token grinder
Registered User
 
token grinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 4,115
vCash: 500
Glenn, what thoroughbred do we have though? We have eurobreds, but they muck and grind like the muckers and grinders.

token grinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 01:22 PM
  #13
ThirdManIn
Mod Supervisor
 
ThirdManIn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 43,450
vCash: 500
I would say the inconsistencies throughout the season could be attributed to the players getting away from the style they play successfully, and, thus, reverting back to their defense-first game. That wouldn't explain inconsistencies in the past with almost completely different rosters.

I'm not yet smart enough with the x's and o's of the game to critique his coaching style while being able to add theories as to how to improve it.

ThirdManIn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 01:36 PM
  #14
triggrman
HFBoards Sponsor
 
triggrman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 16,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I would say the inconsistencies throughout the season could be attributed to the players getting away from the style they play successfully, and, thus, reverting back to their defense-first game. That wouldn't explain inconsistencies in the past with almost completely different rosters.

I'm not yet smart enough with the x's and o's of the game to critique his coaching style while being able to add theories as to how to improve it.
I'm more referring to the lack of offense. I think Trotz system doesn't allow for any offensive flow. I think part of the problem is lack of ice time. Our highest ranking player (Mike Fisher excluded) at forward for ice time in the league, David Legwand, ranked 103, which means he's on par with most 3rd liners icetime. Erat is next at 111. Colin Wilson is 4th in scoring from the forwards yet his ice time, is 11th, pretty bad right? Then you look at SK, ranked 1st in scoring, 10th in TOI/G. At ES, SK moves up and is ranked 9th, behind Joel Ward.....

Even when we were scoring with Kariya, Sullivan, etc, it was more scores off the rush than it was from cycling and generating chances addiditional chances.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/app?service=p...OIPerGame&pg=4


Last edited by triggrman: 02-23-2011 at 02:06 PM.
triggrman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 01:57 PM
  #15
dulzhok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,528
vCash: 500
I would agree that might as well give Wilson more of a chance, because Sully is going downhill.

Trotz doesn't let his players run and gun like a game of pond hockey, in large part because we don't have the talent to keep up with other teams if we did that.

But, to suggest that he stifles any creativity is not accurate, IMO. The biggest proof of this is that when any proven vet come here, they have either had a career year under Trotz (Sullivan, Dumont), or they have produced at levels that hadn't produced at in years (Kariya, Arnott).

Radulov showed some great creativity and scoring ability in his supporting role here. And, he scored goals. I remember some comments from Trotz where his game needed to improve, but I don't remember Trotz bashing him to the media after every game.

Point is- Radulov had creativity, showed it, and had goals to show for it under Trotz. Guys like Legwand just have never showed much great creative ability or talent to suggest they should be getting big points.

Guys like Hartnell and Upshall have produced at similar levels on other teams, as they did under Trotz. In Hartnell's case, he's also had much better linemates to work with in Philly.

We get a guy like Fisher and people think he's going to significantly help our scoring deficiencies. Fisher has been scoring-lined challenged most his entire career (unable to prove he belongs on scoring-line full-time)-- not too different from other players on our team.

Kosistyen is a Trotz success story for now. Trotz pushed him to another level, to give a 2nd and 3rd effort, and I think he's work with him should be commended. He has undeniable creativity, and I don't think Trotz is holding him back.

Erat seems to the most streaky of our players. Is that Trotz' fault or Erat's nature? Can't say for sure.

But yes, I think up front, we rank bottom 5 in offensive talent, ESPECIALLY when you factor in injuries and players on the downside of the career. If we tried to run-and-gun with a team like Detroit or Chicago or Vancover or SJ, we'd fall flat on our face.

dulzhok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 02:08 PM
  #16
triggrman
HFBoards Sponsor
 
triggrman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 16,964
vCash: 500
Not asking for run and gun, just a little more flow.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. We've looked very boring offensively this year.

triggrman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 02:41 PM
  #17
ThirdManIn
Mod Supervisor
 
ThirdManIn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 43,450
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
I'm more referring to the lack of offense. I think Trotz system doesn't allow for any offensive flow. I think part of the problem is lack of ice time. Our highest ranking player (Mike Fisher excluded) at forward for ice time in the league, David Legwand, ranked 103, which means he's on par with most 3rd liners icetime. Erat is next at 111. Colin Wilson is 4th in scoring from the forwards yet his ice time, is 11th, pretty bad right? Then you look at SK, ranked 1st in scoring, 10th in TOI/G. At ES, SK moves up and is ranked 9th, behind Joel Ward.....

Even when we were scoring with Kariya, Sullivan, etc, it was more scores off the rush than it was from cycling and generating chances addiditional chances.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/app?service=p...OIPerGame&pg=4
That's what I meant by inconsistency. Last year we definitely saw inconsistent defense, but for the most part we've been pretty tight in our own end. It's the offense that seems to come and go in waves. When we're scoring we can light teams up for several games in a row, but then we lose the touch. At that point it seems as though the entire team concentrates too much on stopping the other team. Maybe it's a lack of confidence because the scoring bug has left.

Just tossing out theories here. Like I said, I'm not a hockey expert. Until a few seasons ago I never really thought about the game analytically. I always just knew the rules and enjoyed the games rather than trying to learn where the left winger should be on the backcheck in a particular situation. I'm probably off base with my ideas.

ThirdManIn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 02:51 PM
  #18
ThirdManIn
Mod Supervisor
 
ThirdManIn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 43,450
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
I would agree that might as well give Wilson more of a chance, because Sully is going downhill.

Trotz doesn't let his players run and gun like a game of pond hockey, in large part because we don't have the talent to keep up with other teams if we did that.

But, to suggest that he stifles any creativity is not accurate, IMO. The biggest proof of this is that when any proven vet come here, they have either had a career year under Trotz (Sullivan, Dumont), or they have produced at levels that hadn't produced at in years (Kariya, Arnott).

Radulov showed some great creativity and scoring ability in his supporting role here. And, he scored goals. I remember some comments from Trotz where his game needed to improve, but I don't remember Trotz bashing him to the media after every game.

Point is- Radulov had creativity, showed it, and had goals to show for it under Trotz. Guys like Legwand just have never showed much great creative ability or talent to suggest they should be getting big points.

Guys like Hartnell and Upshall have produced at similar levels on other teams, as they did under Trotz. In Hartnell's case, he's also had much better linemates to work with in Philly.

We get a guy like Fisher and people think he's going to significantly help our scoring deficiencies. Fisher has been scoring-lined challenged most his entire career (unable to prove he belongs on scoring-line full-time)-- not too different from other players on our team.

Kosistyen is a Trotz success story for now. Trotz pushed him to another level, to give a 2nd and 3rd effort, and I think he's work with him should be commended. He has undeniable creativity, and I don't think Trotz is holding him back.

Erat seems to the most streaky of our players. Is that Trotz' fault or Erat's nature? Can't say for sure.

But yes, I think up front, we rank bottom 5 in offensive talent, ESPECIALLY when you factor in injuries and players on the downside of the career. If we tried to run-and-gun with a team like Detroit or Chicago or Vancover or SJ, we'd fall flat on our face.
This is something I've thought about as well. How can some guys come into this system and have career years or revitalizing years whereas some guys come in with expectations but choke.

I think with Arnott and Dumont you have to look at the year in which they put up their best numbers here. In 2007-2008 we had one of the best offensive lines in the league for a long stretch with Radulov - Arnott - Dumont. Trotz played that line like an actual top line because we really didn't have any other choice. That team was gutted before the season started, and Poile did what he could just to get us to the cap floor so we could play.

With Kariya and Sullivan they came into a team where offense couldn't even be quelled by Trotz himself. The teams we had from 05-07 were VERY talented in the offensive zone. If I recall correctly we actually had respectable PP then, too. They could be more a product of the roster than anything else. Kariya dropped off after he left for a less talented Blues team (plus he had injuries), and Sully obviously had the back problem. 26 looked good after coming back, but I think it's obvious that it's catching up to him now. He has lost more than a step.

Interesting post, though

ThirdManIn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 03:13 PM
  #19
triggrman
HFBoards Sponsor
 
triggrman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 16,964
vCash: 500
It's obvious though with the ice time, Legwand is playing exactly how Trotz wants him too. I don't know if that's good or bad.....

triggrman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 03:19 PM
  #20
ThirdManIn
Mod Supervisor
 
ThirdManIn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 43,450
vCash: 500
trigg, I agree that we need to find a line that can produce, and play it like a top line. I'm all good with rolling four lines, but give some longer shifts to guys who are showing they can produce. I guess no we have to find a way to get some magic, because the center to our best line all season is injured.

ThirdManIn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 03:41 PM
  #21
deanwormer
Registered User
 
deanwormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 951
vCash: 500
Don't you think some of the TOI distortion on the Preds is do to Trotz rolling Smitty's line as a "real" line, rather than a 4th/grind line? Most places that line is playing 6-7 mins a game, max.

deanwormer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 03:49 PM
  #22
triggrman
HFBoards Sponsor
 
triggrman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 16,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by deanwormer View Post
Don't you think some of the TOI distortion on the Preds is do to Trotz rolling Smitty's line as a "real" line, rather than a 4th/grind line? Most places that line is playing 6-7 mins a game, max.
Of course, that's the problem.

triggrman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 03:52 PM
  #23
glenngineer
Registered User
 
glenngineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Spring Hill, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 3,923
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by deanwormer View Post
Don't you think some of the TOI distortion on the Preds is do to Trotz rolling Smitty's line as a "real" line, rather than a 4th/grind line? Most places that line is playing 6-7 mins a game, max.
I believe we have a winner. Most teams will play their top 3 lines significantly more than the 4th line. The 4th line is for energy or specialty guys for the PK. We use 4 lines and it eats into the time of the more talented guys on the ice. Instead of going out every 3 shifts, they go out every 4 and may never get into a great flow. It's also putting guys, with less talent, Smitty's line, on the ice more than they need to be. More talent on the ice usually results in better results. Call me crazy but I'd rather live and die with my top 9 than my top 12. During the regular season you have to play 4 lines but as we're gearing up towards the playoffs, the top 3 lines need more and more ice time and once the playoffs hit, the 4th line is basically sitting.

If we rolled our top 9 for the minutes they should get, 17-18 a night, give Smitty's line what's left over and PK time, I'd be fine with it but to play some of these guys who produce offensively less minutes than your grinders, why do you think we have problems scoring?

glenngineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 04:10 PM
  #24
Enoch
This is my boomstick
 
Enoch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chattanooga TN
Country: United States
Posts: 12,492
vCash: 500
I'm on the fence. I felt last year was Trotz's best year as a coach. We had a special fire about our team. It was broken in one second by a stupid Erat decision....and a poor coaching decision to put an offensive line out in a clear defensive situation.....

This year, just look at what has happened. Dumont was already exiled. He is making over 4 million dollars. Sullivan is making close to 4 million dollars and has been tolerable pre-injury, and pathetic post injury. Lombardi played 1.5 games and is taking up 3.5 million. Salary wise, we are looking at three of our top 6 salaries with only Legwand/Erat/Weber making more. This is horrible roster management. For a cash strapped team, to essentially flush 12 million bucks down the drain. It has killed us. Not to mention the fact that Legwand and Erat have forever been inconsistent offensive talents to build a team around.

The lombardi injury was unexpected, and it has been off-set to some degree with the Fisher trade. The Dumont situation was a foregone conclusion, and the writing has been on the wall for Sullivan. This is not a Trotz issue. This is a Poile issue. This is his beast this year.

If you want to harp on Trotz this year, I think you look squarely at the powerplay. It has to be better. At the very least, there should be more possession time.....I completely agree on the TOI mismanagement. I have for years. Don't get me started on the line construction....Ugh.

__________________
- Enoch -
Enoch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-23-2011, 07:47 PM
  #25
Legionnaire11
Registered User
 
Legionnaire11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Hendersonville
Country: United States
Posts: 2,750
vCash: 500
i'm not sure if it's time to blame the system, defense wins. BUT... it's past time to ask what the heck is up with the preparedness and the urgency with this team. You expect a game, or stretch of games like this in october. But we're coming into March now, slipping farther down the standings every day and can still get blown out by Edmonton and Columbus. And not just a 4-0 loss to CBus, but give up 4 in the 3rd... That just shouldn't happen to a legit playoff team, if it was a hard fought 4-3 loss (or 2-1 more likely in the Preds case) it's a different story, but at this stage in the season, to lose a game in that fashion is beyond my comprehension.

Legionnaire11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:31 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.