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Old
02-24-2011, 09:38 AM
  #101
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True. I just think that if you're a good coach you think of yourself to be able to get a skilled guy like Zherdev to fit into your system.
Good point. I am also one who never wanted a piece of Zherdev if it meant trading for him, or using what seemed like limited cap space on him. However, neither of those are the case here. And as I said in another thread, this is NHL or bust for him. He could bring a new resolve (doubtful) but getting waived by a contender has to hurt you in the pants.

I think DB liked goose alot because goose was a very good player. He really isn't as soft as people make him out to be. He didn't get beat like a rag doll or hesitate to play in corners. Certainly he punished nobody lol, but there is soff and there is not particularly physical. I think what DB hates is the guy not going hard and not working, where Gogo was not one of those guys.

Further, i think he sees a ton of potential in any Dman who can be more than positional. The way he has our guys play, jumping in on the rush and then getting back/pressuring in the neutral zone as opposed to backing off. He wants strong skaters on D who can cover more ice and "make" plays. As opposed to just stopping them.

That is my take, and I say it in support of the why did Gogo do well for DB camp. Not really to argue any point made.

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02-24-2011, 09:39 AM
  #102
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True. I just think that if you're a good coach you think of yourself to be able to get a skilled guy like Zherdev to fit into your system.
I don't disagree. The strength of Bylsma's system and really the whole Pens organization is that every part is supposed to be interchangeable. Unfortunately that makes it hard for unique (creative) players to fit in nicely.

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02-24-2011, 09:59 AM
  #103
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I don't disagree. The strength of Bylsma's system and really the whole Pens organization is that every part is supposed to be interchangeable. Unfortunately that makes it hard for unique (creative) players to fit in nicely.
I totally love this post. I think that this has been the problem with Geno over the past few years:

He is an extremely creative player trying to be creative in a system that is very simple. Those two styles (Geno's and Bylsma's) have been clashing. Geno needs to simplify his game and play Bylsma's style if he is ever going to regain his Art Ross form.

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02-24-2011, 10:03 AM
  #104
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I totally love this post. I think that this has been the problem with Geno over the past few years:

He is an extremely creative player trying to be creative in a system that is very simple. Those two styles (Geno's and Bylsma's) have been clashing. Geno needs to simplify his game and play Bylsma's style if he is ever going to regain his Art Ross form.
So a system that caters strictly, and I mean strictly, to grinders is going to be the sole reason he regains his Art Ross form. Forgive me if I'm skeptical.

It doesn't matter anyways because I have a strange feeling that Neal or Kunitz, whoever it may be, will help him look a lot more consistent. But that's just me. Everyone's favorite activity around here is to poo poo the fact that his best regular linemate the last 2 years was an 11 goal scorer.

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02-24-2011, 10:09 AM
  #105
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Good point. I am also one who never wanted a piece of Zherdev if it meant trading for him, or using what seemed like limited cap space on him. However, neither of those are the case here. And as I said in another thread, this is NHL or bust for him. He could bring a new resolve (doubtful) but getting waived by a contender has to hurt you in the pants.

I think DB liked goose alot because goose was a very good player. He really isn't as soft as people make him out to be. He didn't get beat like a rag doll or hesitate to play in corners. Certainly he punished nobody lol, but there is soff and there is not particularly physical. I think what DB hates is the guy not going hard and not working, where Gogo was not one of those guys.

Further, i think he sees a ton of potential in any Dman who can be more than positional. The way he has our guys play, jumping in on the rush and then getting back/pressuring in the neutral zone as opposed to backing off. He wants strong skaters on D who can cover more ice and "make" plays. As opposed to just stopping them.

That is my take, and I say it in support of the why did Gogo do well for DB camp. Not really to argue any point made.

Very nice post. Also notable, it would hurt even more to get wave by a contender who is out of top 6 forwards. I mean if he can't outplay Brett Sterling, Mike Rupp and Max Talbot, then he really doesn't belong in the NHL.

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02-24-2011, 10:10 AM
  #106
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So a system that caters strictly, and I mean strictly, to grinders is going to be the sole reason he regains his Art Ross form. Forgive me if I'm skeptical.

It doesn't matter anyways because I have a strange feeling that Neal or Kunitz, whoever it may be, will help him look a lot more consistent. But that's just me. Everyone's favorite activity around here is to poo poo the fact that his best regular linemate the last 2 years was an 11 goal scorer.
I agree dude. He will now have good support. I particularly hope Neal keeps shooting. If teams have to respect his shot it will open alot of ice for Geno. At the end of the day, while are system is specific in some senses, we need Geno to focus on the pushing play North aspect. Regardless of him being at center or wing, he should be getting the puck with speed and forcing the play. The additional skill on his line, again, should help that more than anything.

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02-24-2011, 10:10 AM
  #107
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I don't disagree. The strength of Bylsma's system and really the whole Pens organization is that every part is supposed to be interchangeable. Unfortunately that makes it hard for unique (creative) players to fit in nicely.
Yeah, he's like a complete A&F outfit that looks grat, but Bylsma want the suit anyways.

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02-24-2011, 10:13 AM
  #108
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So a system that caters strictly, and I mean strictly, to grinders is going to be the sole reason he regains his Art Ross form. Forgive me if I'm skeptical.

It doesn't matter anyways because I have a strange feeling that Neal or Kunitz, whoever it may be, will help him look a lot more consistent. But that's just me. Everyone's favorite activity around here is to poo poo the fact that his best regular linemate the last 2 years was an 11 goal scorer.
I never gave Geno a free pass. I'd guess 80% of it is on him and hies injuries, the rest is on Bylsma and his linemates. There really is no excuse for him not beeing a PPG player, not one.

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02-24-2011, 10:14 AM
  #109
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Yeah, he's like a complete A&F outfit that looks grat, but Bylsma wants mud stained coveralls.
Fixed.

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02-24-2011, 10:17 AM
  #110
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Well he's not the right fit. 60% of the players in this league aren't the right fit because Bylsma think he knows something. In actuality he just doesn't know how to coach finesse players, but whatever I'm getting off topic. Zherdev is a bad example anyways because he obviously has some glaring deficiencies that teams don't want to touch.
Just to play Devil's Advocate; Who can coach Zherdev? Apparently Hitchcock can't, nor can Tortorella, nor can Laviolette. Maybe it's not a "the coaches can't coach him" thing and maybe it's a "he can't be coached" thing. All skill and no will. That kind of player wouldn't fit this team and it's system, which someone needs to buy into totally in order to be successful.

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02-24-2011, 10:18 AM
  #111
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I never gave Geno a free pass. I'd guess 80% of it is on him and hies injuries, the rest is on Bylsma and his linemates. There really is no excuse for him not beeing a PPG player, not one.
Well I do agree with that. I've also said now that we have Neal it's no excuse time. He'll have one guy to work with, which is all he should need unless he's simply not as good as he showed a couple years ago. I'm not expecting 120 points but I'm expecting a minimum of 95.

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02-24-2011, 10:19 AM
  #112
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I may be bordering on troll territory with this but here goes.....

The thing is Bylsma will never allow any of the possible positive outcomes you mentioned to happen. One reason is that he loathes players like Zherdev. Not just Zherdev, who is a husk of a prideful hockey player that happens to be very talented, but ALL players like him i.e., total finesse players. The other reason is related to the first: He hates them partly because his dirty little secret is that he can't coach them. If a guy doesn't go kamikaze into the corners and throw low percentage pucks at the net he doesn't know what to tell them to do.

Malkin is tolerated because he's so good, however he's still not completely immune. Any time experimentation occurs with the lines or the power play Malkin is tossed around like a rag doll. Mind you this isn't an excuse for anything. He's still out on the ice playing and I've had far less of a problem with his personal play than many so I'm not making excuses for faults I mostly don't believe exist.

Bylsma's "philosphy" (which is just the basic message every coach tries to instill in his team and nothing more) and shortcomings prevent a player like Zherdev, slug or not, to thrive. When things don't go well he'll just bury you and cite poor play, production be damned while someone that's never scored more than 12 goals takes your place. Because that's how he rolls.

When Malkin wasn't scoring and Bylsma was asked why he began his response with "I don't know". Yes he literally said that. Then he said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "His totals look good in terms of shots, scoring chances, etc. so we don't know". See this is why I have an underlying hatred for Bylsma. He can't figure out a player's struggles because quantitative analysis tells him he should be scoring. You know what that means? IT'S TIME FOR YOU TO START COACHING. Instead he says "I don't know."

A player like Zherdev that has heart anything short of Marian Hossa's will never succeed here. He'll be bounced around the lineup and jerked around because he doesn't "fit in" here, when in actuality we're just a hockey team and the player has magically had success in other cities. Why is that? Because the other team just didn't know what they were doing? That they weren't doing it "the Penguins way"? BS. There's more than one way to skin a cat or in this case, win a Cup. We're not better than everyone else, period.

There are many positives to Bylsma's style of coaching. There are many negatives too. Make no mistake it does not lend itself to optimizing offensive players. This is shrouded by the fact that Crosby is just so damn good it doesn't matter who's coaching him. Neal is here now and I would imagine at least one satisfactory addition will be made to the top 6 over the summer. We'll see how it all plays out, but from what I've seen and what I know I believe that this time next year we'll be happy but wondering why player X and player Y aren't doing quite as well as we expected.
I'm sorry, but you're really overreaching here and like many others, are falling into the trap of thinking that coaching is like a video game.

I mean it drives me nuts when I read things like in your bolded statement above. When you're asked a 100 times over an 18 month span what's wrong with a certain player when EVERYTHING has been tried with him, then yes, it's a valid response to say "I don't know" because frankly, nobody does. Not us, not the coach, not the GM, nobody. I mean it's nice that you bring math and physics into your argument, but it's hockey, and hockey isn't that complicated.

If Malkin had been playing like '08-'09 Malkin, he wouldn't have been "jerked around". I'm sorry to tell people, but putting him at wing next to Staal was as much to turn Geno around as it was to get Staal more playing time.

Never in my life have I seen so many excuses to defend someone's mediocre play than the ones made for Malkin, ranging from injuries to his parents not being here. Maybe it's time to come to terms with the possibility that he's yet another enigmatic flake (and there are numerous examples of this) who teases us with flashes of brilliance and makes everyone believe that it's everyone elses fault but his own when he's not doing well. "Well COACH HIM" is a cop out, and so is the improvement of practically everyone else under Bylsma being credited to natural progression. After you've put him in different spots with different players to try to get him going, the only thing left is to try to control him from a wireless gamepad, and we all know that's not happening.

This question never gets answered, and I've asked it a million times. Who's the one scorer that's left the Pens and has flourished somewhere else because Bylsma shackled him to the fourth line? I know I can't name a single one, because they were either forced to retire, weren't given a contract, or have continued their mediocre play in Los Angeles. I also can't think of a single player who was lighting the League up and failed the minute they stepped foot in Pittsburgh either.

Most good coaches on successful teams demand more than empty stats from their players, so I don't understand why this is anything new. If you're not scoring, backcheck. If you're not scoring, skate hard. If you're not scoring, get to the puck first and make a play for someone else. If you're not scoring, don't sulk when I put you on the fourth line: prove me wrong.

Everyone goes nuts over Torts, but the minute Gaborik isn't scoring, he relegates him to the fourth line and doesn't even put him on the PP while trailing in the last minute of a game. Why? Because if you're not working AND you're not scoring, what use are you to any team?

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02-24-2011, 10:20 AM
  #113
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Absolutely not. He's the TO of hockey and he was even a big enough d-wash to get thrown off of the Flyers.
Except that TO was actually good / scored a lot at one point. He's TO without the stats.


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I think we have nothing to lose if we put in a claim for Zherdev and Svatos.
What we have to lose are two roster spots that might otherwise go to guys who will do a better job and/or not cause issues in the room. Not really sure what Svatos' story is on the second count. Bottom line is, Shero and Bylsma have been very selective in the kinds of players they invite onto this team, and it's not just about having grit. They pick guys who have good attitudes and are known to be good team guys / unselfish. Bringing in some talented, but underachieving loser who is going to dog it on defensive assignments, is a little bit like sabotaging your own family. The kids won't like it very much IMO.

There's something to be said for continuity and being consistent in how you run a team. Adding Zherdev and to a lesser degree Svatos would not be consistent and probably not appreciated by some of the guys. Right now nothing is more important than these guys sticking together and fighting for each other when 2/3 of our best talent is sitting in the press box. You don't bring d-bags or floaters onto a team in that situation.

And either way, does anyone really think Zherdev, playing alongside Staal or Talbot is going to make an impact here? He couldn't make an impact playing with CLAUDE GIROUX. That should be all you need to know. Zherdev sucks. He's great for exhibitions I'm sure but as a springtime hockey player he will likely be a total bust.

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02-24-2011, 10:31 AM
  #114
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I'm sorry, but you're really overreaching here and like many others, are falling into the trap of thinking that coaching is like a video game.

I mean it drives me nuts when I read things like in your bolded statement above. When you're asked a 100 times over an 18 month span what's wrong with a certain player when EVERYTHING has been tried with him, then yes, it's a valid response to say "I don't know" because frankly, nobody does. Not us, not the coach, not the GM, nobody. I mean it's nice that you bring math and physics into your argument, but it's hockey, and hockey isn't that complicated.

If Malkin had been playing like '08-'09 Malkin, he wouldn't have been "jerked around". I'm sorry to tell people, but putting him at wing next to Staal was as much to turn Geno around as it was to get Staal more playing time.

Never in my life have I seen so many excuses to defend someone's mediocre play than the ones made for Malkin, ranging from injuries to his parents not being here. Maybe it's time to come to terms with the possibility that he's yet another enigmatic flake (and there are numerous examples of this) who teases us with flashes of brilliance and makes everyone believe that it's everyone elses fault but his own when he's not doing well. "Well COACH HIM" is a cop out, and so is the improvement of practically everyone else under Bylsma being credited to natural progression. After you've put him in different spots with different players to try to get him going, the only thing left is to try to control him from a wireless gamepad, and we all know that's not happening.

This question never gets answered, and I've asked it a million times. Who's the one scorer that's left the Pens and has flourished somewhere else because Bylsma shackled him to the fourth line? I know I can't name a single one, because they were either forced to retire, weren't given a contract, or have continued their mediocre play in Los Angeles. I also can't think of a single player who was lighting the League up and failed the minute they stepped foot in Pittsburgh either.

Most good coaches on successful teams demand more than empty stats from their players, so I don't understand why this is anything new. If you're not scoring, backcheck. If you're not scoring, skate hard. If you're not scoring, get to the puck first and make a play for someone else. If you're not scoring, don't sulk when I put you on the fourth line: prove me wrong.

Everyone goes nuts over Torts, but the minute Gaborik isn't scoring, he relegates him to the fourth line and doesn't even put him on the PP while trailing in the last minute of a game. Why? Because if you're not working AND you're not scoring, what use are you to any team?
I agree mostly...though I still want a half-assed skill guy on my PP with a minute left over Mike Rupp...

For the flack Bylsma gets for 'misusing' pure skill guys the list of players that he's 'misused' that have gone on to do anything in the NHL basically consists only of Mark Recchi...who only spent the last couple games of his Penguins career on the fourth line/press box, Recchi was given every opportunity to shake the webs off and the wheels had just fallen off and he was a liability to the team whenever he was on the ice. No one foresaw his renaissance coming, but that happened because he was put into a smaller role after his stint in Pittsburgh, where he was mostly a first liner/first PP unit guy.

Petr Sykora's post-Pittsburgh NHL career consisted of 3 points, he's now a .5 PPG player in the KHL. Chris Bourque is under a PPG in Switzerland. Ponikarovsky has 8 points this year in Los Angeles...8!

I'd be interested to see if Comrie comes back and he's given another chance with the team because he was apparently playing injured for 94% of his Penguins tenure so far...and it looked like it.



Svatos is completely shot, he's worthless. At his peak he was only good when shooting, and he hasn't even been good at that for more than 3 years. I would advocate claiming Zherdev, a player that I have a long history of absolutely despising, because he still has an absurd shot. Make him a PP specialist or something...we really would have nothing to lose by claiming him right now as we have the cap room to get him and he's a UFA at the end of the season. I don't expect things would end well with him, it never does, but he still has the skill that would potentially help us...but if we do get him no one should be *****ing if he isn't getting 18 minutes a game, because Zherdev getting 18 minutes a game would hurt us.

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02-24-2011, 10:32 AM
  #115
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Fixed.

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02-24-2011, 10:36 AM
  #116
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I'm sorry, but you're really overreaching here and like many others, are falling into the trap of thinking that coaching is like a video game.

I mean it drives me nuts when I read things like in your bolded statement above. When you're asked a 100 times over an 18 month span what's wrong with a certain player when EVERYTHING has been tried with him, then yes, it's a valid response to say "I don't know" because frankly, nobody does. Not us, not the coach, not the GM, nobody. I mean it's nice that you bring math and physics into your argument, but it's hockey, and hockey isn't that complicated.

If Malkin had been playing like '08-'09 Malkin, he wouldn't have been "jerked around". I'm sorry to tell people, but putting him at wing next to Staal was as much to turn Geno around as it was to get Staal more playing time.

Never in my life have I seen so many excuses to defend someone's mediocre play than the ones made for Malkin, ranging from injuries to his parents not being here. Maybe it's time to come to terms with the possibility that he's yet another enigmatic flake (and there are numerous examples of this) who teases us with flashes of brilliance and makes everyone believe that it's everyone elses fault but his own when he's not doing well. "Well COACH HIM" is a cop out, and so is the improvement of practically everyone else under Bylsma being credited to natural progression. After you've put him in different spots with different players to try to get him going, the only thing left is to try to control him from a wireless gamepad, and we all know that's not happening.

This question never gets answered, and I've asked it a million times. Who's the one scorer that's left the Pens and has flourished somewhere else because Bylsma shackled him to the fourth line? I know I can't name a single one, because they were either forced to retire, weren't given a contract, or have continued their mediocre play in Los Angeles. I also can't think of a single player who was lighting the League up and failed the minute they stepped foot in Pittsburgh either.

Most good coaches on successful teams demand more than empty stats from their players, so I don't understand why this is anything new. If you're not scoring, backcheck. If you're not scoring, skate hard. If you're not scoring, get to the puck first and make a play for someone else. If you're not scoring, don't sulk when I put you on the fourth line: prove me wrong.

Everyone goes nuts over Torts, but the minute Gaborik isn't scoring, he relegates him to the fourth line and doesn't even put him on the PP while trailing in the last minute of a game. Why? Because if you're not working AND you're not scoring, what use are you to any team?
The commentary about certain finesse players was not a veiled shot implying that Bylsma messed up with Sykora, Satan or whoever. I think I actually replied when you said it before and basically said yeah, none of them did anything afterwards. I could go into the Poni thing for the 100th time but no one wants to listen to reason on that one anyways so I won't bother, but yeah he's been laughable this season. That part was just about what I believe is true based on the evidence that's there.

As far as Malkin, you might need to be the one to come to terms. Your surface level critique of him is very short-sighted. To make a long story short, you want the guy to turn water into wine and there are probably 3 or 4 players in the history of the sport that were/are able to do that. One of them happens to be Crosby, which is a fortunate accident for people that love to moan about Malkin. Despite the fact that you insist on being blindly frustrated by Malkin, injuries are real. Linemates almost completely devoid of talent are real. Mistakenly comparing him to other stars around the league that play with 30 goal scorers without admitting to yourself that it matters is real. Is he completely innocent? Of course not. This year was strange to say the least up until he got hurt for good. Then again it's simply misguided to just ignore everything but the player himself, with a mental picture of him in complete health and on equal ground with every other comparable player in the league. As far as last year, he made a lot of bad decisions with the puck and took way too many penalties. His numbers were there so I'm not going to say it was a great year or a terrible year, but that won't stop anyone from again ignoring everything that's there.

There's a difference between excuses and reasons. If people come to terms with that I'd be happy to agree or disagree with their opinions of Malkin. Until then there's no more sense in debating it for the same reason I don't try to debate with people that are hardcore into politics. No one wants to look at any aspect that doesn't 100% conform to what they believe, come hell or high water, so if you're not open to any possibility of you being at least partly wrong why should I indulge you any further?


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02-24-2011, 10:52 AM
  #117
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And either way, does anyone really think Zherdev, playing alongside Staal or Talbot is going to make an impact here? He couldn't make an impact playing with CLAUDE GIROUX. That should be all you need to know. Zherdev sucks. He's great for exhibitions I'm sure but as a springtime hockey player he will likely be a total bust.
To be fair, his TOI ist at over 12 minutes, that's between Mike Rupp and Max Talbot and he was mostly playing on the 3th or 4th line and not with Giroux and he still managed 15 goals.

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02-24-2011, 11:12 AM
  #118
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To be fair, his TOI ist at over 12 minutes, that's between Mike Rupp and Max Talbot and he was mostly playing on the 3th or 4th line and not with Giroux and he still managed 15 goals.
His TOI wasn't great because it wasn't earned. Laviolette wasn't going to put him out there 18min a game because of his talent. Earlier in the year he had several games where he was getting time with Giroux and other Top 6 quality players and he drove Philly fans nuts the way he would circle and float everywhere, not doing anything but looking for shots. Zherdev is useless in the NHL IMO; he should just go back to Europe and find some league where it's all run-and-gun and he might fit in there OK.

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02-24-2011, 12:08 PM
  #119
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DB's system is give and take. In one way it's a forward like Zherdev's dream. It's north-south, very quick hockey, but the system also has that component where you need to be equally committed defensively and on the back check...which Zherdev is not, and it doesn't support guys who take nights off...which Zherdev does.

IMO, Zherdev would be riding the pine because of how he consistently disappears when it comes to effort, not because he wouldn't be committed to defense or forechecking or backchecking. You cheat the team...DB will let you rot on the bench. If Zherdev can't get inspired playing with a Cup favorite in Philly...I don't know why he would be any more inspired here.

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02-24-2011, 12:22 PM
  #120
Jaded-Fan
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Cleared. No one wanted him.

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02-24-2011, 12:52 PM
  #121
PKV Jungle Friends
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Those are great points to be honest. As far as the last question, I don't really know what chance we're taking. This season is shot unless Crosby comes back and I don't know how anyone can't be thinking in the back of their minds that that's simply not happening. Is it optimal? Hell no. My point is just if we can add a guy that can score and still add one or two more then what the hell? I'd argue the complete opposite of what you implied at the end. This season has gone from great to worst case scenario. Like I already wrote a ways up on this page, what are the risks really? There really are none realistically.

One player is not going to lose us a series or single-handedly drop us out of the playoffs. There's a slight chance he could win a game or two for us though. Hell play him once in a blue moon like they did with Satan in the playoffs when they won the Cup if you must.

I know most of this sounds like I disagree with you but like I said you made a bunch of valid points. I'm just speaking from the "what do we have to lose?" club.
Good counterpoints indeed.

At this point taking the "what do we have to lose?" approach seems reasonable. I like the addition of Kovy for a 7th round pick and Zherdev can help put some kind of offense on the ice.

I'm just weary of guys that come with a reputation. I hear Torts really hated him...

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02-24-2011, 12:55 PM
  #122
mynameistickle
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put him on re-entry someone will take him for half price

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02-24-2011, 12:57 PM
  #123
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wow did he and Kotalik clear on re-entry as well? wow

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Old
02-24-2011, 01:03 PM
  #124
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Cleared waivers. Now he's going to refuse to report to the minors and go back to the KHL.

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02-25-2011, 06:15 AM
  #125
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I am a bit surprised not one team picked him up. Boy he really must have burnt some bridges. The guy has scored 15 goals, one of which was a GWG against us. And that goal was a sharpshooters goal. The skill is clearly there so he must really have trouble following the program in whatever organization he's a part of.

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