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Old
02-24-2011, 01:13 PM
  #351
JDM
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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
This team has already improved from last years squad. By far.

Quick is going to be fresher, hope Williams continues his great play, Doughty/Johnson etc. have more seasoning under them. This is a far better club than last years. IMO.

Plus they will know what to expect when it comes to the playoffs. We're at 6th seed right now, and who knows where they go from here but the Kings don't have to make a deal.
No one has to make a deal but not improving can equate to getting worse if those around you improve.

And how exactly are we better than last year's team? The team that had one of the best Kings records EVER?

Quick isn't even better this year, just more rested.

Doughty's been worse.

Johnsons' been better.

Kopi is Kopi.

Brown... can be argued both ways.

Simmonds is worse.

Smyth is the same.

Stoll is slightly better.

Williams is better.... but not even really better so much as just healthy.

Greene is the same.

Scuds is the same.

Mitchell adds something over what we lost in OD.

Poni < Fro.

What have the Kings done this year that they didn't already do better last year?

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02-24-2011, 01:13 PM
  #352
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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
Making the playoffs in back to back seasons is quite an achievement.

Especially with this group.
You have very low expectations. When just more than half the teams make it to the playoffs, all you have to be is slightly better than average to do that. If thats what you are satisfied aiming for, then lets just annoint DL emperor for life right now.

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If the Kings miss the playoffs, does anyone think we have even a hope of resigning Williams?

If we don't resign Williams, all of a sudden we have two huge holes in the top 6 going into next year.

I have my doubts about Williams willingness to resign even if we make the playoffs but get trounced early on.

TEAM MUST MAKE PROGRESS!
But, it isnt about this year. Its all about NEXT year!

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Old
02-24-2011, 01:21 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
These arguments, that have taken over every thread I mean we did all notice that this was a thread about an article by HE and while yes, she did raise the topic regarding whether we should or shouldn't be making a deal (by the way, the first rule in the journalism hand book is that Controversy Sells. I am not kidding, go check out the AP handbook and see how often its mentioned and how valued it is) for this argument to be running rampant over every thread is somewhat ridiculous.

This thread has certainly morphed (organically) to a discussion on Kings draft/trade/FA history, and I'm happy to change the title to reflect that, but I don't see this discussion happening in every thread.

I'm happy to merge as necessary, but PM me with some examples so I have a better understanding of what you're referring to. I'm not seeing threads being taken over with the conversations occurring in this thread.

Questions about site moderation to be in PM anyway per the site rules.

I'll update the thread title. Back to (the current) topic please.

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Old
02-24-2011, 01:35 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
You have very low expectations.






I am all for trading a Moller or Hickey, but not a Schenn.


I am also hopefully for at least the second round this year

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02-24-2011, 01:39 PM
  #355
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
No one has to make a deal but not improving can equate to getting worse if those around you improve.

And how exactly are we better than last year's team? The team that had one of the best Kings records EVER?

Quick isn't even better this year, just more rested.

Doughty's been worse.

Johnsons' been better.

Kopi is Kopi.

Brown... can be argued both ways.

Simmonds is worse.

Smyth is the same.

Stoll is slightly better.

Williams is better.... but not even really better so much as just healthy.

Greene is the same.

Scuds is the same.

Mitchell adds something over what we lost in OD.

Poni < Fro.

What have the Kings done this year that they didn't already do better last year?
No Randy Jones

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Old
02-24-2011, 01:43 PM
  #356
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No Randy Jones
Damn. I just got pwned. lol.

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02-24-2011, 02:43 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
This team has already improved from last years squad. By far.

Quick is going to be fresher, hope Williams continues his great play, Doughty/Johnson etc. have more seasoning under them. This is a far better club than last years. IMO.

Plus they will know what to expect when it comes to the playoffs. We're at 6th seed right now, and who knows where they go from here but the Kings don't have to make a deal.
It's debateable the team has improved, and by no means have they improved "by far."

When they are up, they are easily better than last years team. problem is, they aren't very consistent, so that's why I don't veiw them as better overall. It's one thing to play up to your potential in spurts, another to do it day in, day out.

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02-24-2011, 02:46 PM
  #358
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No Randy Jones
I love addition by subtraction

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02-24-2011, 02:53 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
No one has to make a deal but not improving can equate to getting worse if those around you improve.

And how exactly are we better than last year's team? The team that had one of the best Kings records EVER?

Quick isn't even better this year, just more rested.

Doughty's been worse.

Johnsons' been better.

Kopi is Kopi.

Brown... can be argued both ways.

Simmonds is worse.

Smyth is the same.

Stoll is slightly better.

Williams is better.... but not even really better so much as just healthy.

Greene is the same.

Scuds is the same.

Mitchell adds something over what we lost in OD.

Poni < Fro.

What have the Kings done this year that they didn't already do better last year?
Ok you changed my mind. We suck, clearly....good lord some of you just aren't a happy bunch.

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02-24-2011, 02:57 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
Ok you changed my mind. We suck, clearly....good lord some of you just aren't a happy bunch.
Don't confuse me thinking you say some ridiculous things as me being unhappy. I'm quite happy in general... cautiously OK with the Kings overall this season. I expected better from them this far into the season, but the failures of the rest of the Pacific Division have tempered what would otherwise be some pretty big disappointment. If your expectations for this Kings team this season were in line with where the team is right now... well then Lombardi hasn't really changed the culture, has he?

The whole point of changing the culture was for everyone, the organization, the coaches, the players AND the fans, to EXPECT results. Win and expect to win. So to me, fans who think the Kings just squeaking into the playoffs is a success, indicates a failure of the culture shift.

You must be dissatisfied with treading water. Otherwise that is all you will ever do.

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02-24-2011, 02:59 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
You have very low expectations. When just more than half the teams make it to the playoffs, all you have to be is slightly better than average to do that. If thats what you are satisfied aiming for, then lets just annoint DL emperor for life right now.



But, it isnt about this year. Its all about NEXT year!
Ah so making the playoffs is easy? I disagree.

Yes, I'm satisfied if the Kings make the playoffs. Considering their real crappy home stand. It would be nice to actually see the Kings become an annual playoff team. Not just a one hit wonder and fall back into mediocre hockey for years. Like they are known for. But that's just me.

I also have realistic expectations, I think this team can win a playoff round but I won't go ballistic and call for AEG to fire everyone if they don't.

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02-24-2011, 03:11 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Don't confuse me thinking you say some ridiculous things as me being unhappy. I'm quite happy in general... cautiously OK with the Kings overall this season. I expected better from them this far into the season, but the failures of the rest of the Pacific Division have tempered what would otherwise be some pretty big disappointment. If your expectations for this Kings team this season were in line with where the team is right now... well then Lombardi hasn't really changed the culture, has he?

The whole point of changing the culture was for everyone, the organization, the coaches, the players AND the fans, to EXPECT results. Win and expect to win. So to me, fans who think the Kings just squeaking into the playoffs is a success, indicates a failure of the culture shift.
I think this just illustrates that some fans will always find something negative to say about Dean Lombardi, No matter what. Some just like to complain to complain. Just their nature. That's part of the culture Dean is trying to change. Some of you just want failure because your accustomed to failure for so many years. So that's why the bar is being set so high on here to the point I'm being ripped on here for having my expectations of the Kings making the playoffs in consecutive seasons.

Besides I predicted the Kings will win the Division and make the playoffs at 3 seed earlier in the season but for some of you, that's probably a colossal failure somehow.

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02-24-2011, 03:17 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
I think this just illustrates that some fans will always find something negative to say about Dean Lombardi, No matter what. Some just like to complain to complain. Just their nature. That's part of the culture Dean is trying to change. Some of you just want failure because your accustomed to failure for so many years. So that's why the bar is being set so high on here to the point I'm being ripped on here for having my expectations of the Kings making the playoffs in consecutive seasons.

Besides I predicted the Kings will win the Division and make the playoffs at 3 seed earlier in the season but for some of you, that's probably a colossal failure somehow.
A) Pardon me for not knowing your entire posting history. If you predict the Kings to get the 3rd seed, then why is squeaking in on the skin of their heels just as good? Sounds like you've lowered your expectations as the season has gone along. Again, this speaks to a culture that isn't about winning.

3) Expecting to win a round in the playoffs, which is literally the smallest improvement over last year that is possible, is setting the bar too high?

Q) Nice try flipping my point around on me, but it doesn't work. I've always been a DL supporter.

5) We ALL expect the Kings to make the playoffs in consecutive years. The contention is that you surmised simply making the makings is a success, when it reality, it is minimally adequate. It is, without exaggeration, the least the Kings could do this year for the season to not be a failure.

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Old
02-24-2011, 03:39 PM
  #364
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And how exactly are we better than last year's team? The team that had one of the best Kings records EVER?
... Without the shootout, the Kings would have been 36-28-18 last season. That equates to 90 points. Not a bad season, but it barely squeaks in at around #9 in Kings' history, a little ahead of the 05-06 team and a little behind the 88-89 team. The Kings' goal differential was +20, about 7th in history - well behind the 88-89 team, which was +41.

This season, the Kings would be 26-25-9 without the shootout. That's 61 points in 60 games, which prorates to about 83 or 84 points for the season. Their goal differential is +17, so it projects to be better than last season. While that doesn't automatically make this season's team better, it might indicate that the Kings were a bit luckier last season than they are now.

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Quick isn't even better this year, just more rested.
... He's FAR better, far more consistent. Quick's save percentage for this season is .922. Last season, he didn't even have one month where he had a save percentage that impressive.

Last season, Quick's save percentage at home was .899. I'm not sure if there was any #1 goalie who was worse at home than Quick was last season. For the first two months of last season (when everyone is fond of saying he was "lights out" before he got tired) his save percentage was .900. That's not "lights out". It's not even "average". It's bad.

This season at home, Quick is at .927. For the first two months of this season, he was at .928. The difference is like night and day.

Last season in the shootout, Quick was 8-6. This season, he is 7-0.

Quick's W-L record last season looks more impressive because he played behind the 9th best offensive team in the NHL. Now, he's playing behind the tenth WORST offensive team in the NHL. That's reason #925508 why ranking goalies by wins and losses is a bad idea. This season, Quick has had to work harder for his wins, and he's had less margin for error.

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Doughty's been worse.
... He's been better defensively, worse offensively. But then, that can be said for the entire team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Johnsons' been better.
... For sure.

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Kopi is Kopi.
... Kopitar is having the best season of his career. It's sad that people can't or won't see that, because of who has played alongside him this season.

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Brown... can be argued both ways.
... Brown was better overall last season, but there's still time left this season to make up the difference. I think he has another hot streak left in him; if the Kings are lucky, it could be during the playoffs.

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Simmonds is worse.
... He's been handled so poorly this season. He's exhibit A, in my mind, why Murray should be fired at the end of the season. Wayne is so much better than this.

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Smyth is the same.
... Yep, definitely.

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Stoll is slightly better.
... I think he HAS been better. I don't think there's a more versatile player on the team than him.

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Williams is better.... but not even really better so much as just healthy.
... Williams was good for the first nine games of last season. After that, he was poor. This season, he's still been a hit or miss player, but he's definitely picked up his scoring level. It shows what going into a contract year will do to a man.

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Greene is the same. Scuds is the same.
... Scuderi has been a bit better, Greene a bit worse. Again, there's still 22 games left. We'll see.

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Mitchell adds something over what we lost in OD.
... What has he added? More man-games lost to injury? Nah, Mitchell's been fine when he's actually played. But then, that's why he cost more than O'Donnell did.

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Poni < Fro.
... They don't really compare. Frolov was wrongly done last season, and the Kings' problems at first line LW are almost like karma has bitten them in the ass. I think Ponikarovsky's done about all that can be expected of him, given the time he's missed due to injury, and given as little ice time as he's received when he HAS played.

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
What have the Kings done this year that they didn't already do better last year?
... They've played a little better defense, and they're getting far better goaltending. That's been enough to offset the decline in scoring, but the luck they're getting in the close games hasn't been as good as it was last season. The division is more wide-open this season than it was a year ago, and I still think the Kings can and will win it. Their margin for error continues to be very small, though - not only for the rest of the season as a whole, but game-to-game and period-to-period as well. Mentally, this team will have to be stronger than they've ever been.

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Old
02-24-2011, 03:40 PM
  #365
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It's debateable the team has improved, and by no means have they improved "by far."

When they are up, they are easily better than last years team. problem is, they aren't very consistent, so that's why I don't veiw them as better overall. It's one thing to play up to your potential in spurts, another to do it day in, day out.
Last year we could beat you with offense and defense. This year it looks like we have lost that ability to go goal for goal on the nights where the defense isn't as good as it should be.

Relying too heavily on defense alone leaves little margin for error. I think the play this season is a regression when viewed in toto.


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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
Ah so making the playoffs is easy? I disagree.

Yes, I'm satisfied if the Kings make the playoffs. Considering their real crappy home stand. It would be nice to actually see the Kings become an annual playoff team. Not just a one hit wonder and fall back into mediocre hockey for years. Like they are known for. But that's just me.

I also have realistic expectations, I think this team can win a playoff round but I won't go ballistic and call for AEG to fire everyone if they don't.
AS I said, and you just proved, its a low expectation. Last season, we made the playoffs. We need to see progress, and their play this year so far hasnt shown that. So just making the playoffs isnt enough. Even the "vaunted one" himself said that, and the players have echoed it as well.

I've been a fan too damn long to just accept an invite to the party as an achievement where the goal is to bag the prize of the party. If you're ok with one and out, that's fine, . . . for you. Don't worry, there will always be some girls still at the bar at 2:00am. For me, I'm shooting a little bit higher, and won't be satisfied till I hit my mark.

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02-24-2011, 04:00 PM
  #366
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JT, nice breakdowns. Hard to argue with most of them, but I will argue the Quick point just to say that when Quick was on top of his game last season, he was just as good as this season. I think the consistency this season comes from him having a backup who actually plays. Quick was run ragged, as we all know, which I think has more to do with his level play seemingly being better in general this season than it does Quick individually getting better outside of circumstance.

Then again, circumstance is important.

So anyways, after all that, I'm unsure what your opinion is on whether the Kings are better or worse this year? Sounds like overall you would say that they even out to about equal, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

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02-24-2011, 04:13 PM
  #367
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.Their goal differential is +17, so it projects to be better than last season.
Currently, they are actually a +22, and only Vancouver, Detroit and Chiacgo have a better goal differential than LA in the West. Pro-rated over the season, they will finish at +30.

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02-24-2011, 04:30 PM
  #368
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Quick was run ragged, as we all know, which I think has more to do with his level play seemingly being better in general this season than it does Quick individually getting better outside of circumstance.
... I think Quick being better this season has to do with three factors:

1) The experience he's had in the league before this season
2) The team's improved defensive play from last season to this one
3) The fact that the organization's projected #1 is on the roster and chasing him

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So anyways, after all that, I'm unsure what your opinion is on whether the Kings are better or worse this year? Sounds like overall you would say that they even out to about equal, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.
... I think the Kings are a bit better overall, but their lack of offense worries the hell out of me. When they can score a couple goals or more, they're almost unbeatable right now - but can they do that on a consistent basis?

The experience of being in the playoffs last season can't be discounted, either.

My expectation was to win a playoff round this season, and if the Kings can get in the playoffs, they absolutely can do some damage. I think that when the Kings are right, they can shut any team in the NHL down. I don't care if it's Detroit, or Vancouver, or Chicago, or whoever - they can make life miserable for anyone.

But if they fail to get in the playoffs, I still think the GM and coach should be shown the door. You can get me to buy into a five year plan, but a ten year plan? Just how long do we have to wait, here? It wasn't like Lombardi was taking over a first-year expansion team when he got here. The Kings were a .500 team with a thin, but not completely bare, farm system. Lombardi did a good job stocking the system, but that was at the expense of the tradeable assets he inherited, as well as three seasons of losing. How long must the labor pains go on before we get to see the baby? Four seasons of missing the playoffs in five years is unacceptable. Hell, five playoff wins in five seasons is unacceptable. They need to make the playoffs and they need to win a round - or it's time to make a change. Not in the direction of the organization, mind you, but in the leadership of it.

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Currently, they are actually a +22, and only Vancouver, Detroit and Chiacgo have a better goal differential than LA in the West. Pro-rated over the season, they will finish at +30.
... You're adding in the "bonus" goals that the team gets from winning the shootout, which skews the numbers. I'm only counting actual goals they've scored and allowed.

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02-24-2011, 04:36 PM
  #369
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The fact that the offense is off, significantly just shows they are better defensively, and that is both Goaltending and team defense.

But as I said, relying too heavily on defenese alone leaves little margin for error.

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02-24-2011, 04:39 PM
  #370
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A) Pardon me for not knowing your entire posting history. If you predict the Kings to get the 3rd seed, then why is squeaking in on the skin of their heels just as good? Sounds like you've lowered your expectations as the season has gone along. Again, this speaks to a culture that isn't about winning.
The Culture of winning is being a consistent playoff team. Similar to the Red Wings...I'm just tired of the short success spans the Kings have been through in its history. Being a one year wonder doesn't cut it for me. So yes, I would like to win the Division and make the playoffs in consecutive seasons...I can't help it if some think that's a colossal failure.

Quote:
3) Expecting to win a round in the playoffs, which is literally the smallest improvement over last year that is possible, is setting the bar too high?
It's realistic, as I have stated beforehand.

Quote:
Q) Nice try flipping my point around on me, but it doesn't work. I've always been a DL supporter.
Sure.


Quote:
We ALL expect the Kings to make the playoffs in consecutive years. The contention is that you surmised simply making the makings is a success, when it reality, it is minimally adequate. It is, without exaggeration, the least the Kings could do this year for the season to not be a failure.
As I said before, I predicted this team to win the Division prior to the season. Got laughed at, but here's the thing. I don't find it a coincidence that expectations have suddenly risen the past week or so around this deadline hype. "Well Dean must win a playoff round, otherwise he is a failure." "Dean is gutless, why can't he sell the store to get Hemsky, he needs to do it!"

People are eager to set up some sort of failure for this team. It's laughable. NOBODY was talking about winning a playoff round. Now all of a sudden this team needs to get to the second round. It's laughable...

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02-24-2011, 04:47 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... I think Quick being better this season has to do with three factors:

1) The experience he's had in the league before this season
2) The team's improved defensive play from last season to this one
3) The fact that the organization's projected #1 is on the roster and chasing him



... I think the Kings are a bit better overall, but their lack of offense worries the hell out of me. When they can score a couple goals or more, they're almost unbeatable right now - but can they do that on a consistent basis?

The experience of being in the playoffs last season can't be discounted, either.

My expectation was to win a playoff round this season, and if the Kings can get in the playoffs, they absolutely can do some damage. I think that when the Kings are right, they can shut any team in the NHL down. I don't care if it's Detroit, or Vancouver, or Chicago, or whoever - they can make life miserable for anyone.

But if they fail to get in the playoffs, I still think the GM and coach should be shown the door. You can get me to buy into a five year plan, but a ten year plan? Just how long do we have to wait, here? It wasn't like Lombardi was taking over a first-year expansion team when he got here. The Kings were a .500 team with a thin, but not completely bare, farm system. Lombardi did a good job stocking the system, but that was at the expense of the tradeable assets he inherited, as well as three seasons of losing. How long must the labor pains go on before we get to see the baby? Four seasons of missing the playoffs in five years is unacceptable. Hell, five playoff wins in five seasons is unacceptable. They need to make the playoffs and they need to win a round - or it's time to make a change. Not in the direction of the organization, mind you, but in the leadership of it.
I absolutely, positively, agree with all of this.

Great post.

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02-24-2011, 04:50 PM
  #372
JDM
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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
As I said before, I predicted this team to win the Division prior to the season. Got laughed at, but here's the thing. I don't find it a coincidence that expectations have suddenly risen the past week or so around this deadline hype. "Well Dean must win a playoff round, otherwise he is a failure." "Dean is gutless, why can't he sell the store to get Hemsky, he needs to do it!"

People are eager to set up some sort of failure for this team. It's laughable. NOBODY was talking about winning a playoff round. Now all of a sudden this team needs to get to the second round. It's laughable...
What? SInce day 1 of training camp, getting to the second round of the playoffs has been the expectation and the goal.

Expectations haven't sharply risen in the past week. Panic has set in because the Kings nearly **** the bed on the whole season with their pathetic home stand, thus bringing the expectations to the forefront.

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02-24-2011, 04:56 PM
  #373
DryIslandBartender
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post


AS I said, and you just proved, its a low expectation. Last season, we made the playoffs. We need to see progress, and their play this year so far hasnt shown that. So just making the playoffs isnt enough. Even the "vaunted one" himself said that, and the players have echoed it as well.
It's not a low expectation, this franchise hasn't been to the playoffs consecutively in eons, and certainly hasn't won a Division title in eons as well. I'm not surprised that's not good enough. People forget this plan Dean has, isn't a one year wonder situation...its a long term plan. We will win the Cup in the near future, as I said before Kings fans need to learn how to be patient. One playoff appearance and everyone wants the moon.

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02-24-2011, 05:06 PM
  #374
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
What? SInce day 1 of training camp, getting to the second round of the playoffs has been the expectation and the goal.

Expectations haven't sharply risen in the past week. Panic has set in because the Kings nearly **** the bed on the whole season with their pathetic home stand, thus bringing the expectations to the forefront.
It's a realistic possibility. Kings have very little playoff experience, and that helps a little more so than last year where lot of players had ZERO.

Point is, I fully realize that this team is built for the long run, not just for 2011 and being a one year hit wonder. I'm not going to freak out if they miss out on the second round, bummed...yes of course. Kings need to dethrone the Sharks in the Pacific, and learn how to make the playoffs on a consistent basis. That's where my expectations are. Others believe its second round or bust, ok..but I'm getting ripped for expecting consecutive playoff appearances. It's just funny to me.

What I do know is that this team is going to be special in the near future and I do believe the wait will be worth it. I see the long term vision of Dean Lombardi and at the same time, I enjoy watching this team full of youth. It's very up and down over the last couple seasons, and they just need to learn to be consistent and when that happens, is when this team will contend for the cup.

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02-24-2011, 05:11 PM
  #375
Ollie Weeks
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I think Bernier as backup instead of Ersberg has also been an important improvement this season over last. Ersberg's handling by Murray aside, I thinks its a reasonable claim that Bernier has been more reliable in the role, which negates the total dependency we had on Quick last season. Both goalies are able to give us a chance to win games and remain sharp.

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