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Old
02-24-2011, 04:16 PM
  #376
DIEHARD the King fan
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You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You predict they win the division but are satisfied if the just make the playoffs. My expectations are always high. DL made cdertain promises to longtime STH's like myself, and at every step of the way he has found reasons to hold everyone else, but himself, accountable.

After last season's one and done playoff's, DL said just getting in wasnt enough. This year, accordingly, the expectations were raised, and rightfully so. Even had he not said it, the same expectations would be present in mind.

You are looking at failure (the past) and using it to justify the lack of appreciable improvement from one season to the next. For all DL has done, it has resulted in very little, which is the place many of us older fans come from. Results are what count, and just getting in to the playoffs, (rather than going golfing) while necessary to go further, even in consecutive seasons, is not something I'm going to celebrate. Its the bare minimum of what I expect every single year from a team committed to winning.

Let me ask it this way: If the Kings do nothing other than make the playoffs for the next five years, ( one and one each year) is that going to satisfy you? Really? Do you think the fans or the management in Nashville are satisfied every year, and even if they are, this aint Nashville, for crissakes.


Last edited by DIEHARD the King fan: 02-24-2011 at 04:26 PM.
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Old
02-24-2011, 04:45 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
It's a realistic possibility. Kings have very little playoff experience, and that helps a little more so than last year where lot of players had ZERO.

Point is, I fully realize that this team is built for the long run, not just for 2011 and being a one year hit wonder. I'm not going to freak out if they miss out on the second round, bummed...yes of course. Kings need to dethrone the Sharks in the Pacific, and learn how to make the playoffs on a consistent basis. That's where my expectations are. Others believe its second round or bust, ok..but I'm getting ripped for expecting consecutive playoff appearances. It's just funny to me.
What I do know is that this team is going to be special in the near future and I do believe the wait will be worth it. I see the long term vision of Dean Lombardi and at the same time, I enjoy watching this team full of youth. It's very up and down over the last couple seasons, and they just need to learn to be consistent and when that happens, is when this team will contend for the cup.
This is where the Kool-aid drinkers stand out. Making the playoffs is, and should always be, the bare minimum expectaion, notwithstanding anything in the past.

The concept that this team is going to win, for sure, while hoped for and expected, is not guaranteed, anymore than anything is in life. So Far, DL's got littel in the way of results. Yes they are trending in the right direction, but if the Kings merely make the playoffs and get bounced everytime in the first round in the next three years are you going to celebrate that fact and taut DL's achievement? Or are you going to join the mob with their torches and pitchforks calling for his head on a platter?

Im not ripping you for being happy they dont suck anymore, I'm pointing out that your expectations need to be adjusted relative to the promises that have been made about how this team would be a Stanley Cup Contender in five years under DL.

Am I happy that they are looking close to a contender, but that alone is not enough and it never will be, FOR ME!

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02-24-2011, 05:10 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by BerniernextRoy View Post
People are eager to set up some sort of failure for this team. It's laughable. NOBODY was talking about winning a playoff round. Now all of a sudden this team needs to get to the second round. It's laughable...
... Well, I can say with certainty that this isn't true. I'm not going to do the work for you, because I'm A) lazy and B) on vacation, but I know that I posted my expectation for the team to win a playoff round before this season started. It's in my posting history somewhere.

If the Kings make the playoffs, and they lose a hard-fought series that goes the full seven against a proven contending team like Detroit, or Vancouver, or Chicago ... then, I'd be OK with that. What I'm saying is - they shouldn't go quietly into that good night. If they go down meekly in a sweep or in five, then there needs to be a change.

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02-24-2011, 06:19 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Last year we could beat you with offense and defense. This year it looks like we have lost that ability to go goal for goal on the nights where the defense isn't as good as it should be.

Relying too heavily on defense alone leaves little margin for error. I think the play this season is a regression when viewed in toto.




AS I said, and you just proved, its a low expectation. Last season, we made the playoffs. We need to see progress, and their play this year so far hasnt shown that. So just making the playoffs isnt enough. Even the "vaunted one" himself said that, and the players have echoed it as well.

I've been a fan too damn long to just accept an invite to the party as an achievement where the goal is to bag the prize of the party. If you're ok with one and out, that's fine, . . . for you. Don't worry, there will always be some girls still at the bar at 2:00am. For me, I'm shooting a little bit higher, and won't be satisfied till I hit my mark.

Great as always DHK but I am still confused.

This season to me is an enigma.

We have been better then we had been in years if not ever at times and at times we were as bad as we have been at times.

If the team that is capable of going on these winning streaks where capable of showing up every night then I would be satisfied with our progress to this point.

To me the streaky inconsistent nature of our current line up is where the enigma lies. I am and have been since his hiring opposed to TM's coaching style. I have read the playbook and I just see several areas where I just disagree flat out.

So it would be easy to sit back and blame TM for all of our woes and just be a casual fan waiting for our ultimate collapse so I can come in and say I told you so to any or all of TM's supporters (providing that I were right which is yet to be seen).

But then I also agree with the idea that our team, in its current state simply isn't quite ready yet to make a legitimate cup run based on what DL has been doing since he got here. Yes that is debatable and we won't know the outcome until another year passes in my opinion if not a little longer but again, it is still a matter of conjecture rather or not that DL is ultimately going to be right in his vision on how to lead us to the promised land.

The Oakland A's under their scribe's tendency to hang onto their pending free agents until the season is over and then let them walk for no return makes me believe even more that DL is following the same game plan.

So like I said, to me we are an enigma.

We can either wait and continue to build by hoarding picks and getting them into the line up as soon as they show any ability to be able to play at an NHL level to fill the holes that we already have and that will be coming up during the offseason.

Or we can make a deal to address our most significant need(s) which is also a gamble.

This type of a situation happens with every young team that is building for the future which is what we are at this point.

This is why I still see us as being a year away from becoming legit contenders.

By next season I can see several key young players vying to fill the holes left by any of our departing ufa's and then I believe that before they can honestly compete for a cup that they will need another year of experience at least.


It all makes me even more peeved that DL couldn't have resigned himself to keeping squid. With him on our LW we would have been mostly set imo towards becoming the team that we want to be without having to be all panty bunched about what DL should or shouldn't be doing this deadline.

Toffoli is the real deal but I am one of those people who have seen him play several times who think that he should spend at least half the season in the AHL before making any step towards the bigs if not a little longer.

Vey is closer in my opinion but he too should have to start the season in the AHL before making the jump.

Kozun is under rated by most of us but I see him as being ready to step in and play as a utility forward. His hands are golden and he likes to play tuff its just that his overall D is still developing that makes me wonder if he will make the step next year or not.

Loktionov is ready as we have all seen but he is just one of those centers who doesn't really merge well into playing on the wing.

Schenn is a center and a real center at that but that also means that he and we are both better served by letting him play in his natural position.

Moller is the dark horse in my opinion as he has proven that he can play and score in the NHL and he has done an excellent job at developing his D game. He has worked hard and paid his dues and if he doesn't deserve a chance this coming season (providing he is still with us) then the entire system should be called out and made to explain exactly why.

Weal is still two to three seasons of development away in my opinion from being considered for NHL play. He is either on or off and at times he looks like a serious steal of his draft and at other times he looks average. Im not sold that he will become an NHL caliber forward but maybe.

We have other prospects but to me that point is that we actually are in good enough shape and that is without going into again our depth in goal or our ridiculous depth on the blue line to make a deal to fill our seriously obvious need for a fast talented sniper type up on our top three.

Not a soft sometimes player who is in and out of the line up causing havoc both to his team mates but also to a management team that clearly appears to be unable to handle such dificulties.

Not a big slow sometimes great sometimes good but all to often fair winger.

But we are in position to make an offer on a Parise or a Malkin type of player and it wouldn't kill us.

In my opinion there really isn't any 1 player on our team with the exception of DD that is untouchable but, for the first time that I can honestly remember as a Kings fan, we are deep enough and on a solid enough path to where before we offer any of our assets we need to be certain that we have what we need to take the next step at becoming a true contender when the deal is done.

So again, its obvious that I am confused and that is why I am just going to watch the team and spend the next couple of months out watching some of the players for the coming draft in person and getting a feel for which ones I think will become NHL players.

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02-25-2011, 03:01 AM
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You predict they win the division but are satisfied if the just make the playoffs. My expectations are always high. DL made cdertain promises to longtime STH's like myself, and at every step of the way he has found reasons to hold everyone else, but himself, accountable.
It's unlikely Kings will win the Cup this season, so I would like to see the Kings win a Division title. It's something that's only happened once in this franchises sad history. So yeah its a starting point, and would be a big accomplishment for this franchise. Getting the 3rd seed would also mean home advantage and a lesser opponent. So as I have said, it's realistic the Kings make it to the second round but its not where I have set the bar.


Quote:
The concept that this team is going to win, for sure, while hoped for and expected, is not guaranteed, anymore than anything is in life. So Far, DL's got littel in the way of results. Yes they are trending in the right direction, but if the Kings merely make the playoffs and get bounced everytime in the first round in the next three years are you going to celebrate that fact and taut DL's achievement? Or are you going to join the mob with their torches and pitchforks calling for his head on a platter?
No, I don't see the Kings being bounced continually in the first round consistently. I believe the Kings will have something very special happening in the near future. Some of my friends in Canada that are fans of the Leafs, and Senators have predicted to me that they see the Kings making a Cup appearance in the next couple seasons. It's not just me being a homer, but there's a lot of fans around the league that know the Kings are well stocked and will be a force to be reckoned with in the near future. We also have a great development program for the prospects. Lots of very smart hockey people are working in the organization.

Dean fully understands the Kings fans have never seen the Cup, and I know full well that Dean is fully committed to bringing some Cup titles to LA. He took the job because he wanted to bring that to LA.


Quote:
Im not ripping you for being happy they dont suck anymore, I'm pointing out that your expectations need to be adjusted relative to the promises that have been made about how this team would be a Stanley Cup Contender in five years under DL.

Am I happy that they are looking close to a contender, but that alone is not enough and it never will be, FOR ME!
I know and I am not saying DL has been perfect during his tenure here. I disagree with many things he has done early on, but I also know the Kings are in good shape going forward. I want to really wipe that 93' finals away from my memory ASAP but patience....we've waited so long for some championship hockey. We'll get it soon, but now is not the time to be impatient.

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02-25-2011, 06:47 AM
  #381
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No Randy Jones
Thanks for stealing my line there...

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02-25-2011, 10:22 AM
  #382
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like Tonelli said and i'm in total agreement...LA is still years away imo.

before this season began i predicted a season of big peaks and valleys. i knew the team was going to be inconsistent at times as they mentally develop and continue to gel at the NHL level.

i foresee a 'changing of the guard' still to take place before LA takes the next step and makes their first serious Cup runs. the current core of youngsters that now still have the likes of older vets around them, will have to step forward. when older vets like Zus, Mitchell and Smyth are gone the responsibility of leading and accountability will fall to this core of DD, JJ, DB, Kopi, Simmer, Greene, etc. they may wear the C and A now on their jerseys, but I guarantee the old guys are leading, setting the pace and calling guys out when needed. i've been on teams and in locker rooms enough to know how that dynamic works.

the change will happen and the next step taken when the likes of Vey, Kozun, TT step foot at Staples and are being lead by our current young core.

like Tonelli said he still sees these guys as 1-3 years down the road in development if LA is smart and takes their time. it's been 5 years so far with DL's plan and as fans are just getting to the point where it REALLY should begin to bear out as planned. to now get impatient and hurry things along doesn't make sense. i think the team is on the downslope of the progression and the final pieces are going to begin to fall into place.

for example, DL brings in Zus to a) mentor the young C's on the team, b) Stoll is added for depth and talent, c) Zus, Stoll, Kopi are mentoring Lewis, d) Schenn arrives next season full time and is mentored by Stoll, Kopi and Lewis. this type of progression and 'changing of the guard' has to happen for the team to develop at the NHL level, it can't be rushed.

i look at where things are this way......
"this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning"......W Churchill

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02-25-2011, 10:38 AM
  #383
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Personally Whiskey, I think we will take a very strong run at the cup, if not win it, in 2013. This year, the goal is make the playoffs, maybe take the division, maybe win a round. Next year, goal should be win at least one round, maybe two. 2013 playoffs, we'll have the eperience to make a big push. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me to see us take a huge run in 2012. This team is closer than most people think.

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02-25-2011, 12:19 PM
  #384
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
... You are looking at failure (the past) and using it to justify the lack of appreciable improvement from one season to the next. For all DL has done, it has resulted in very little, which is the place many of us older fans come from. Results are what count, and just getting in to the playoffs, (rather than going golfing) while necessary to go further, even in consecutive seasons, is not something I'm going to celebrate. Its the bare minimum of what I expect every single year from a team committed to winning.

Let me ask it this way: If the Kings do nothing other than make the playoffs for the next five years, ( one and one each year) is that going to satisfy you? Really? Do you think the fans or the management in Nashville are satisfied every year, and even if they are, this aint Nashville, for crissakes.
Also speaking as an older fan but with a different take on the changes to the Kings and DL's reign. Great post, btw, always enjoy your takes....

To me, the most significant change is not in stats (individual or team), position in the standings, or playoffs (whether won or lost).

The BIGGEST change is in organization and focus. Players and personnel (coaches, etc) are assets and changeable. In the past, any change would change the organization. Now, I know that is different.

For the first time in their existence, the Kings have an organization, from top to bottom, moving in the same direction and focused on the same goal - championships. Player development, scouting, a team culture, game systems - all fit into that goal and focus. That is truly the most important thing. Everything else slots into that concept.

But, to your point, my personal 5 year clock started last year with the playoffs. I expect the team to always make the playoffs and threaten to go deep (one or two series, at least) for the next 10 years. So, I am not so worried if they don't get 100 points a season or into the semi's every year - but they should always make the playoffs and usually get past the first round.

The odds are, given everything that Lombardi and the people around him have accomplished, we will get into the finals and win a cup. Because we have a rock solid foundation.

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02-25-2011, 12:22 PM
  #385
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... Well, I can say with certainty that this isn't true. I'm not going to do the work for you, because I'm A) lazy and B) on vacation, but I know that I posted my expectation for the team to win a playoff round before this season started. It's in my posting history somewhere.

If the Kings make the playoffs, and they lose a hard-fought series that goes the full seven against a proven contending team like Detroit, or Vancouver, or Chicago ... then, I'd be OK with that. What I'm saying is - they shouldn't go quietly into that good night. If they go down meekly in a sweep or in five, then there needs to be a change.
Way too early to start cleaning house. That would ruin everything - like stealing the confidence from a rookie after his third or fourth mistake. We've got to live with the mistakes to get a mature team and franchise. Even a sweep would not deserve this at this point, imho.

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02-25-2011, 12:30 PM
  #386
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Great thread!

@ TG... DL either made a mistake or he is one of the most shrewd GMs ever. A guy like Cammalleri can take a lot of pressure off youngsters with one play. Pretty soon, development and effort slack off (human nature), while rookies and others wait for Mike C to work his magic. Win the game with one shot. "How hard do I have to play if that guy is going to do that for me every game?" Remove the crutch of his talent and each player has to learn how to win on their own. Result - stronger team. Just another way to look at it.

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02-25-2011, 12:41 PM
  #387
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Great thread!

@ TG... DL either made a mistake or he is one of the most shrewd GMs ever. A guy like Cammalleri can take a lot of pressure off youngsters with one play. Pretty soon, development and effort slack off (human nature), while rookies and others wait for Mike C to work his magic. Win the game with one shot. "How hard do I have to play if that guy is going to do that for me every game?" Remove the crutch of his talent and each player has to learn how to win on their own. Result - stronger team. Just another way to look at it.
Trade away talent just to force the other players to have to do it themselves?

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02-25-2011, 02:05 PM
  #388
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No.

More like trade away those players that are at a different level of development or place in their careers. Trade away those players who have a different commitment to organization goals. Trade away those players who seek a different path to the cup. That's all.

I'm sure you agree that talent is not the ultimate arbitrator of success in this league.

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02-25-2011, 02:09 PM
  #389
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No.

More like trade away those players that are at a different level of development or place in their careers. Trade away those players who have a different commitment to organization goals. Trade away those players who seek a different path to the cup. That's all.

I'm sure you agree that talent is not the ultimate arbitrator of success in this league.
Good luck getting too far without it. That opening for the sniper position is still unfilled today!

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02-25-2011, 02:36 PM
  #390
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Agree.

Now the Kings are in a position where they can support and compliment elite talent and still handle those times when elite talent slumps or is injured.

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02-25-2011, 04:56 PM
  #391
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Agree.

Now the Kings are in a position where they can support and compliment elite talent and still handle those times when elite talent slumps or is injured.
Your on it Duc.

Though I think we will be in that position after this coming offseason more so than today but its debatable.

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02-25-2011, 10:26 PM
  #392
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Way too early to start cleaning house. That would ruin everything - like stealing the confidence from a rookie after his third or fourth mistake. We've got to live with the mistakes to get a mature team and franchise. Even a sweep would not deserve this at this point, imho.
... You've said in this thread that you started the five year plan when the Kings made the playoffs last season, so you're willing to give this regime nine years to get things together. Let's just say that I agree to disagree on that.

As far as I'm concerned, a five year plan means five years. And, four seasons missing the playoffs in five years, or two or three playoff wins in five years, is unacceptable considering what Lombardi had to work with and the latitude he was given when he got here.

A lot of people want to give Lombardi credit for nebulous things, like "transforming" the organization, or "creating a winning culture" - and it all sounds to me like a bunch of buzzwords to cover for the fact that nothing tangible has really been accomplished. He's increased the prospect base; that's great. But, after trading away the assets he inherited and the team on the ice getting their collective faces kicked in for three straight years - hell, he SHOULD have increased the prospect base, don't you think? What else could there possibly be to do? It's not like there has been any real on-ice success, so what else is there but to build for the future? So, as I see it, he's done merely what he's expected to do.

I'm not advocating trading away picks, trading away the entire prospect base, or anything of that sort. I'm not advocating changing the direction of the organization as it stands now. I'm saying that if the current management team has nothing to show for five years except two or three playoff wins and an (expected) increase in the prospect base, then it's time for new management - new leadership.

Quote:
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A guy like Cammalleri can take a lot of pressure off youngsters with one play. Pretty soon, development and effort slack off (human nature), while rookies and others wait for Mike C to work his magic. Win the game with one shot. "How hard do I have to play if that guy is going to do that for me every game?" Remove the crutch of his talent and each player has to learn how to win on their own. Result - stronger team. Just another way to look at it.
... Development and effort only slack off with certain players, and THOSE players need to be dealt off, not the talented players. Talent isn't a crutch, it's an asset. It may not be the be-all end-all, but a team cannot even hope to win without it. More often than not, talented players make other players better. When you practice with talented players, you learn more - in fact, young players with talented veterans around them are more capable of raising their own talent level. To say that human nature is to slack off is cynical at best. These are players who, by their own talent and will, made it to the highest level of their craft in the World. One doesn't get to that level by slacking off at every opportunity.

And, besides that, Cammalleri wasn't dealt because of that, anyway. He was dealt because he didn't let Dean walk all over him when it came time to talk contract. He was dealt because Dean didn't think he could play, and didn't think he had the size to be a lasting talent in the league. Let's not kid ourselves, here.

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02-25-2011, 10:47 PM
  #393
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How many rookies do we have on the team this season?

How many did we have last season?

How many, realistically does everyone think we will have on our team next season?

By rookie lets say someone who has yet to put together a full first NHL season.

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02-26-2011, 01:46 AM
  #394
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How many rookies do we have on the team this season?

How many did we have last season?

How many, realistically does everyone think we will have on our team next season?

By rookie lets say someone who has yet to put together a full first NHL season.
I expect no fewer than three "rookies" to play full time with the Kings next season. Part of the plan for a little while longer will be to get better and younger at the same time. That would be some combination of Schenn, Loktionov, Moller, and Voynov. Add that to Clifford and Martinez this season and it is pretty clear that the Kings' development system is running on all cylinders.

Those that want to see major changes if the Kings don't win at least one playoff round would see the Kings return to the same old BS of "anything can happen once you make the playoffs" mode. For once things are being done the right way. The Kings are developing their own stars instead of trading for them. I believe the time will come to make a larger deal, and I would be fine with acquiring a player like Hemsky to help today, but doe anyone here really believe a fair price for him is any more than something like Martinez/Hickey, Moller, and a 2nd?

There is no need to buy today at over inflated prices.

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