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Old
02-24-2011, 02:30 PM
  #51
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Lando - Spezza - Yakupov in 3 years oh god.

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Old
02-24-2011, 02:52 PM
  #52
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Second line of.

Michalek- Strome/Huberdeau- Butler

3rd line.

Foligno- Regin- Silverberg/Condra

Greening- Smith-Neil

Getting ahead of ourselves here.

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02-24-2011, 03:10 PM
  #53
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Sens brass has said that they're going to package the Nashville pick to move up in the draft. I'm guessing to grab a centre like Strome or Huberdeau (Strome is probably going to drop due to injury...I would assume.) I don't think that RNH and Couturier are that much better than Strome and Huberdeau to warrant passing on Landeskog because we 'need a C.' Also if you're talking about gamebreaking ability...when has RNH shown that? He's a pass first player. The only guys that are able to steal a game on their own performances, ironically enough, are Landeskog and Couturier (at least in the CHL.)
Well, if they can then great but it's easier said than done.

Couturier and Landeskog are both better than RNH right now but they're older and drafting is about projecting how good playerswill be. Which you know, obviously. RNH doesn't have NHL strength yet and someone's going to have to tell him to shoot, but IMO he's got the elite quickness and potentially elite speed to be a game-breaking player at the NHL level (on top of his skill). In a similar way to Kane, though Kane was a much better Junior player, or Duchene, though he'll have to add a lot of muscle to get to where Duchene is physically.

I think he has more offensive talent and potential than Couturier and certainly than Landeskog. You may disagree (I suspect you do).

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02-24-2011, 06:18 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Asquaredx2 View Post
Well, if they can then great but it's easier said than done.

Couturier and Landeskog are both better than RNH right now but they're older and drafting is about projecting how good playerswill be. Which you know, obviously. RNH doesn't have NHL strength yet and someone's going to have to tell him to shoot, but IMO he's got the elite quickness and potentially elite speed to be a game-breaking player at the NHL level (on top of his skill). In a similar way to Kane, though Kane was a much better Junior player, or Duchene, though he'll have to add a lot of muscle to get to where Duchene is physically.

I think he has more offensive talent and potential than Couturier and certainly than Landeskog. You may disagree (I suspect you do).
Offensive potential isn't everything. Let's say that, at some point, RNH makes it into the NHL and he becomes a 90 point player. I would give up a 90 point player for a 70 point player that brings everything else that he has with him. RNH doesn't have gamebreaking ability he just makes the players around him better. He's a lot like Spezza, but Spezza does have that ability to cut through the entire other team and then score. Landeskog has everything on RNH except for offensive upside, and even with that upside Landeskog is more likely to reach his potential.

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02-24-2011, 06:45 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by CPhoenixM View Post
Offensive potential isn't everything. Let's say that, at some point, RNH makes it into the NHL and he becomes a 90 point player. I would give up a 90 point player for a 70 point player that brings everything else that he has with him. RNH doesn't have gamebreaking ability he just makes the players around him better. He's a lot like Spezza, but Spezza does have that ability to cut through the entire other team and then score. Landeskog has everything on RNH except for offensive upside, and even with that upside Landeskog is more likely to reach his potential.
I agree. We have Giggles, and whilst he has improved his defensive game, if we were to say RNH is the same as Spezza, Giggles will be 36 by the time RNH is where he is today.

That's why my top 2 forwards for this draft are Lando and Cutey, as to me they both seem like game-breakers. I think that Lando might be more of a game breaker, but at the same time, having a two-way centre in Cutey might help us even more. It'll be really interesting to see what Murray does. My top 3 are defs Lando, L'arse, and Cutey.

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02-24-2011, 07:12 PM
  #56
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I agree. We have Giggles, and whilst he has improved his defensive game, if we were to say RNH is the same as Spezza, Giggles will be 36 by the time RNH is where he is today.

That's why my top 2 forwards for this draft are Lando and Cutey, as to me they both seem like game-breakers. I think that Lando might be more of a game breaker, but at the same time, having a two-way centre in Cutey might help us even more. It'll be really interesting to see what Murray does. My top 3 are defs Lando, L'arse, and Cutey.
Could you do me a favor and call him Couts?

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02-24-2011, 07:18 PM
  #57
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Could you do me a favor and call him Couts?
Lol he should do himself a favour and call him Couts

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02-24-2011, 07:33 PM
  #58
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Sens either pick Larsson or Landeskog, jmho.

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02-25-2011, 12:01 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by CPhoenixM View Post
Offensive potential isn't everything. Let's say that, at some point, RNH makes it into the NHL and he becomes a 90 point player. I would give up a 90 point player for a 70 point player that brings everything else that he has with him. RNH doesn't have gamebreaking ability he just makes the players around him better. He's a lot like Spezza, but Spezza does have that ability to cut through the entire other team and then score. Landeskog has everything on RNH except for offensive upside, and even with that upside Landeskog is more likely to reach his potential.
Spezza is neither a powerful nor nimble skater. Very rarely is he able to "cut through the entire other team." RNH IMO projects to have that ability because of his quickness, just as Kane can even though he's not exactly Jagr-like in lower-body strength. He's also a willing, though not presently effective, physical presence and does boast defensive upside because of his take-away ability.

Numbers are really hard to talk about because it totally depends on the team around them. Spezza is better now than he was in 2005-2006 but producing at 53% of what he did then. Ultimately, I feel like both could put up fabulous numbers with awesome linemates but I think RNH projects to be able to create more of his own offence because of his skating and talent, and that will make him the better offensive player when he's not surrounded by players as good as he is. And even though Landeskog is a more rare prospect than RNH, that quality of RNH's is more valuable to this team unless we're totally set on tanking for several years to get the Hossa/Kane/Sharp/Carter/Giroux/Briere's to Landeskog's potential Richards/Toews that way.

Less importantly, I'd rather have a forward corps built around two centres than one centre and one winger, especially when that one centre is injury-prone.

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02-25-2011, 01:19 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Asquaredx2 View Post
Spezza is neither a powerful nor nimble skater. Very rarely is he able to "cut through the entire other team." RNH IMO projects to have that ability because of his quickness, just as Kane can even though he's not exactly Jagr-like in lower-body strength. He's also a willing, though not presently effective, physical presence and does boast defensive upside because of his take-away ability.

Numbers are really hard to talk about because it totally depends on the team around them. Spezza is better now than he was in 2005-2006 but producing at 53% of what he did then. Ultimately, I feel like both could put up fabulous numbers with awesome linemates but I think RNH projects to be able to create more of his own offence because of his skating and talent, and that will make him the better offensive player when he's not surrounded by players as good as he is. And even though Landeskog is a more rare prospect than RNH, that quality of RNH's is more valuable to this team unless we're totally set on tanking for several years to get the Hossa/Kane/Sharp/Carter/Giroux/Briere's to Landeskog's potential Richards/Toews that way.

Less importantly, I'd rather have a forward corps built around two centres than one centre and one winger, especially when that one centre is injury-prone.
That's why we be trading up for notre ami, Huberdeau.

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Old
02-25-2011, 06:48 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Asquaredx2 View Post
Spezza is neither a powerful nor nimble skater. Very rarely is he able to "cut through the entire other team." RNH IMO projects to have that ability because of his quickness, just as Kane can even though he's not exactly Jagr-like in lower-body strength. He's also a willing, though not presently effective, physical presence and does boast defensive upside because of his take-away ability.






There are plenty more but I don't want to clog up this thread. When RNH actually shows the ability to turn it up and pull something like that how can you possibly say taht he has more game-breaking ability than Spezza?

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Numbers are really hard to talk about because it totally depends on the team around them. Spezza is better now than he was in 2005-2006 but producing at 53% of what he did then. Ultimately, I feel like both could put up fabulous numbers with awesome linemates but I think RNH projects to be able to create more of his own offence because of his skating and talent, and that will make him the better offensive player when he's not surrounded by players as good as he is. And even though Landeskog is a more rare prospect than RNH, that quality of RNH's is more valuable to this team unless we're totally set on tanking for several years to get the Hossa/Kane/Sharp/Carter/Giroux/Briere's to Landeskog's potential Richards/Toews that way.
...yeah Spezza is producing at 53% of what he did then, but he is also playing with 75% less talent beside him. RNH plays on one of the best teams in the WHL and you don't need the biggest names to have good players beside you. He is a pass first player and he's not going to put up any more points (definitely less) than someone like Spezza in a similar situation. It almost seems as though you are trying to say that RNH is more talented than Spezza. There is no one with the talent that Spezza has in this draft. Period. Spezza was an absolute beast in juniors and was far and away 10x the player that RNH was. On top of that Spezza took that talent and translated it to the big stage in putting up big numbers on multiple seasons, and is still pretty much a PPG player on one of the worst teams in the league. He's playing with AHL guys and still putting up PPG numbers...I mean come on. If RNH puts up a single PPG season I would be impressed. Guys like RNH come around every year, and in a lot of years someone with his talents wouldn't even be in the top 5. Hell, there are guys that are projected behind him that are outscoring him now, and probably will in the NHL too.

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Less importantly, I'd rather have a forward corps built around two centres than one centre and one winger, especially when that one centre is injury-prone.
There are a lot of centres in the first round of this years draft. We don't need to take a risky small forward 2A centre over someone with Landeskog's skillset. Guys like Landeskog are very rare. RNH, Couts, Strome, Huberdeau, Zibanejad, Catenacci even Rask and St. Croix all have the ability to be very good 2A centres to Spezza, and most of them have upside of a #1 C. It's not a big deal to pass on RNH.

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Old
02-25-2011, 07:51 AM
  #62
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For Spezza, if you look at it as a % of Team Scoring (ie: His Points/Game vs Team Goals/Game, even if it is extremely crude), he's produced like this:

05-06: 90 points, 68 GP, 314 GF, 34.6% of team scoring
06-07: 87 points, 67 GP, 288 GF, 37% of team scoring
07-08: 92 points, 76 GP, 261 GF, 38% of team scoring
08-09: 73 points, 82 GP, 217 GF, 33.6% of team scoring
09-10: 57 points, 60 GP, 225 GF, 34.6% of team scoring
10-11: 29 points, 40 GP, 137 GF (60 GP), 31.8% of team scoring

Right now we are on pace for 187 GF. Let's say with Spezza we get up to 200 and Spezza continues at a PPG pace to finish the season:

10-11: 51 Points, 62 GP, 200 GF, 33.7% of team scoring


Compare to Ovechkin last year:
109 points, 72 GP, 318 GF, 39% of team scoring

Backstrom last year:
101 points, 82 GP, 318 GF, 31.8% of team scoring

D. Sedin this year:
79 points, 62 GP, 207 GF, 38.2% of team scoring


Of course this isn't perfect, especially with injuries and what not, but just some perspective on how much Spezza means to us and how underrated he usually is.

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02-25-2011, 08:21 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Sensfanman View Post
Compare to Ovechkin last year:
109 points, 72 GP, 318 GF, 39% of team scoring

Backstrom last year:
101 points, 82 GP, 318 GF, 31.8% of team scoring

D. Sedin this year:
79 points, 62 GP, 207 GF, 38.2% of team scoring


Of course this isn't perfect, especially with injuries and what not, but just some perspective on how much Spezza means to us and how underrated he usually is.
Very nicely thought out. Thanks

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02-25-2011, 09:45 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Sensfanman View Post
For Spezza, if you look at it as a % of Team Scoring (ie: His Points/Game vs Team Goals/Game, even if it is extremely crude), he's produced like this:

05-06: 90 points, 68 GP, 314 GF, 34.6% of team scoring
06-07: 87 points, 67 GP, 288 GF, 37% of team scoring
07-08: 92 points, 76 GP, 261 GF, 38% of team scoring
08-09: 73 points, 82 GP, 217 GF, 33.6% of team scoring
09-10: 57 points, 60 GP, 225 GF, 34.6% of team scoring
10-11: 29 points, 40 GP, 137 GF (60 GP), 31.8% of team scoring

Right now we are on pace for 187 GF. Let's say with Spezza we get up to 200 and Spezza continues at a PPG pace to finish the season:

10-11: 51 Points, 62 GP, 200 GF, 33.7% of team scoring


Compare to Ovechkin last year:
109 points, 72 GP, 318 GF, 39% of team scoring

Backstrom last year:
101 points, 82 GP, 318 GF, 31.8% of team scoring

D. Sedin this year:
79 points, 62 GP, 207 GF, 38.2% of team scoring


Of course this isn't perfect, especially with injuries and what not, but just some perspective on how much Spezza means to us and how underrated he usually is.
It's just interesting to see how important he is to the team in terms of scoring. It just gives you a general idea as to how much Spezza contributes versus some of the other teams top players. His contribution would be higher, too, if he actually had decent linemates (see 05 - 08.) I'm looking forward to where Spezza gets some of the credit he deserves for being such a great offensive player and developing his defensive game.

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02-25-2011, 10:04 AM
  #65
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Lando involved in a fight with one of their goalies:

http://www.therecord.com/sports/arti...ngers-practice


Last edited by SENSational Sens Fan: 02-25-2011 at 10:09 AM.
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02-25-2011, 10:09 AM
  #66
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Lando involved in a fight with one of their goalies:

http://www.therecord.com/sports/arti...ngers-practice
Fighting his own goalie? Character issue. Stay away.

In all seriousness, gotta love this kid's compete level.

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02-25-2011, 10:19 AM
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02-25-2011, 10:27 AM
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02-25-2011, 10:53 AM
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Interesting to note Lando is scoring more goals/game than Hall with Windsor last year.

Lando has 31 in 42. Hall had 40 in 57.

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02-25-2011, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by CPhoenixM View Post

3 goals by Spezza.

There are plenty more but I don't want to clog up this thread. When RNH actually shows the ability to turn it up and pull something like that how can you possibly say taht he has more game-breaking ability than Spezza?



...yeah Spezza is producing at 53% of what he did then, but he is also playing with 75% less talent beside him. RNH plays on one of the best teams in the WHL and you don't need the biggest names to have good players beside you. He is a pass first player and he's not going to put up any more points (definitely less) than someone like Spezza in a similar situation. It almost seems as though you are trying to say that RNH is more talented than Spezza. There is no one with the talent that Spezza has in this draft. Period. Spezza was an absolute beast in juniors and was far and away 10x the player that RNH was. On top of that Spezza took that talent and translated it to the big stage in putting up big numbers on multiple seasons, and is still pretty much a PPG player on one of the worst teams in the league. He's playing with AHL guys and still putting up PPG numbers...I mean come on. If RNH puts up a single PPG season I would be impressed. Guys like RNH come around every year, and in a lot of years someone with his talents wouldn't even be in the top 5. Hell, there are guys that are projected behind him that are outscoring him now, and probably will in the NHL too.



There are a lot of centres in the first round of this years draft. We don't need to take a risky small forward 2A centre over someone with Landeskog's skillset. Guys like Landeskog are very rare. RNH, Couts, Strome, Huberdeau, Zibanejad, Catenacci even Rask and St. Croix all have the ability to be very good 2A centres to Spezza, and most of them have upside of a #1 C. It's not a big deal to pass on RNH.
Yeah, I've watched 95% of Spezza's games too. You showed me a goal he scored where he beats Andrew Alberts (and to a much lesser extent Burrows, which is more impressive), a goal with some absolutely horrific defending by Souray and the Canadiens, and the goal he scored against the Red Wings about 4 years ago, which was nice but which he's rarely, if ever, replicated. That's three examples from 504 career regular season games - yeah, there are probably more, but I'm saying he's rarely able to do something like that and you haven't really countered my argument.

The vast majority of the time that Spezza comes down on a one-on-one or a similar situation, he either curls back to make a pass (or drop-passes), tries and fails to deke past the defender, or shoots from long-range, which has never really resulted in offence apart from when a guy like Regin picks up the rebound. He doesn't have the acceleration/shiftiness or power in his stride to be a dangerous one-on-one or one-on-two player. That's not the be-all end-all but it makes him less of a game-breaker and more reliant on his team-mates, and it shows up in a comparison in his production now vs. 2005-06 even though he's better now than he was then. And he's not "basically a PPG," he's got 29 points in 40 games.

Look, Spezza was a better Junior player than Nugent-Hopkins, Landeskog and Couturier are both better players than RNH is right now, but again we're looking at the long-term here. Do I think RNH will put up better numbers than Spezza in the NHL? No. Do I think his hands or vision or even his shot is better? No. Do I think he'll be stronger than Spezza? No, although Spezza just looks like a remarkably un-powerful skater on the ice.

But his talent-level is still higher than Landeskog's or Couturier's, and because of his agility in skating, I think if someone teaches him to shoot more (which is possible; Spezza's certainly started shooting more) I think he figures to be able to get himself and the puck to dangerous areas more consistently than Spezza can without relying on his team-mates. And, again, that is an extremely valuable trait of his for the Senators considering the relative weakness of their forward corps going forward, even if Landeskog is the rarer prospect.

And he'll still be able to play-make and be a part of the powerplay on an excellent to potentially elite level, though on a lesser level than Spezza.

OK, so, to summarize: I feel like RNH has more ability to be an offensive focal point than Landeskog, and even if Spezza is emerging as more than just an elite complementary offensive player (and I'm not entirely convinced) I'd rather have two of those than one excellent line, in particular because Spezza has shown himself to be injury-prone. Then we can add depth and wingers with our other high picks in 2011 and our picks in 2012.

I'm also not entirely comfortable building our future team around Spezza when he hasn't shown the ability to be a franchise guy apart from in the numbers he's put up playing with Alfredsson (and Havlat in 2003-04, IIRC) who served as the real engine and focal point of the CASH line. I endorse drafting Landeskog if the Sens' scouts believe he has the ability to have an Alfredsson-like offensive impact on the ice, but I'm not convinced he can, or if we're committed to the rebuild/tank such that we anticipate adding a guy like Galchenyuk in 2012.

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02-25-2011, 12:19 PM
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Then we can add depth and wingers with our other high picks in 2011 and our picks in 2012.

I'm also not entirely comfortable building our future team around Spezza when he hasn't shown the ability to be a franchise guy apart from in the numbers he's put up playing with Alfredsson (and Havlat in 2003-04, IIRC) who served as the real engine and focal point of the CASH line. I endorse drafting Landeskog if the Sens' scouts believe he has the ability to have an Alfredsson-like offensive impact on the ice, but I'm not convinced he can, or if we're committed to the rebuild/tank such that we anticipate adding a guy like Galchenyuk in 2012.
So why can't we add centre depth with the other picks in 2011/2012? We already have a great centre, if we take RNH he's not going to be ready for at least a few years anyway so it's not like it makes much a difference. The difference is that there is no impact winger like Landeskog coming through the ranks later in 2011 or in 2012 (at least none that have emerged yet, Yakupov is a great scoring winger but he's no Landeskog.)

Zibanejad, Strome, Huberdeau, Catennaci, etc. could end up with more potential upside or better careers than RNH; how many wingers can you say that about in comparison to Lando in the top 30? Obviously something bad can happen, but Landeskog is much more of a sure thing, and he doesn't have any comparables in the draft. He is head and shoulders above every other winger and offers all the intangibles that we need this year. There are other centres we can draft -- we don't need RNH.

Quote:
The vast majority of the time that Spezza comes down on a one-on-one or a similar situation, he either curls back to make a pass (or drop-passes), tries and fails to deke past the defender, or shoots from long-range, which has never really resulted in offence apart from when a guy like Regin picks up the rebound. He doesn't have the acceleration/shiftiness or power in his stride to be a dangerous one-on-one or one-on-two player. That's not the be-all end-all but it makes him less of a game-breaker and more reliant on his team-mates, and it shows up in a comparison in his production now vs. 2005-06 even though he's better now than he was then. And he's not "basically a PPG," he's got 29 points in 40 games.
He has 9 points in his last 8 games since returning. If you're going to hold him to the standard of every other player when they were playing literally the worst hockey in over a decade, with a crap system and a horrible goalie sucking away their confidence to make offensive plays that's fine, but aside from tragedies like the one that affected the Sens this year and horrible systems/teams Spezza would be, or will be, a PPG player. On top of that nobody ever said that Spezza was going to split the other team end to end every night; I just pointed out that he has that ability whereas someone like RNH has never shown that ability. RNH is a pass first player that relies on his teammates, and more importantly the power play, to produce offence. If anything Couturier and Strome are both better 'game breaking' talents than RNH.

Meanwhile Spezza going up against the other team and creating space for drop back passes or taking a shot that creates offence is part of what makes him so valuable. He's like a black hole when he has the puck -- he sucks everyone in and if he can get a few players around him that can actually take advantage of the space he provides (we've seen it with Butler lately) we'll be golden.

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Old
02-25-2011, 12:25 PM
  #72
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Lando involved in a fight with one of their goalies:

http://www.therecord.com/sports/arti...ngers-practice
This sounds OUSTANDING.

By the sounds of it this was 100% healthy. I'm sure either way, scouts will be told it was healthy and scouts are going to love this news. I really hope Ottawa and Kitchener end up in the finals.

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