HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Claude Giroux: Franchise Player...?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-25-2011, 10:18 PM
  #101
MsWoof
Registered User
 
MsWoof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,598
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DownieFaceSoftener View Post
Jester is right.

I've seen Richards perform like Roo did last night and in bigger games with worse linemates.

I love Roo, but Richards is clearly better. Roo, should he have more nights like last, would become an elite player. He needs to finish consistently. Splitting four guys with an amazing move then losing the puck is worthless. His passing is amazing, but the guy needs to finish more. He's not close to Richards defensively, night in, night out, but he's still improving his game.

I'm happy we're lucky enough to be fans of both players.
I agree with you and Jester. Richards seems to always get saddled with inferior linemates. Nodl this year, Carcillo last year, Gagne last year after he game back from injury and Richie was continuously trying to feed him, Carter in the playoffs coming off 2 broken feet and out of position. He doesn't get as many points as he can because of the situations he's put in.

He's still far, far ahead of Roo defensively.

I am just glad we have them both.

MsWoof is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 06:34 AM
  #102
mja
Negative Creep
 
mja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,523
vCash: 500
For the AINEC crowd, simple question, who was the best player on the ice against the Isles?

If you don't say Giroux then you aren't being objective.

Why don't we keep a running tally of who has the bigger impact game by game?

mja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 09:15 AM
  #103
Stockholm Syndrome
____________________
 
Stockholm Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: O'Neals Pub
Country: United States
Posts: 1,538
vCash: 500
Who cares? They both play for us!

(Richards is still better.)

Stockholm Syndrome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 09:32 AM
  #104
JonnyGaloshes
Registered User
 
JonnyGaloshes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: West Philadelphia
Posts: 396
vCash: 500
Giroux is the Jagr to Richards' Martin Straka

JonnyGaloshes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 09:57 AM
  #105
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,234
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stockholm Syndrome View Post
Who cares? They both play for us!

(Richards is still better.)
Bingo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
For the AINEC crowd, simple question, who was the best player on the ice against the Isles?

If you don't say Giroux then you aren't being objective.

Why don't we keep a running tally of who has the bigger impact game by game?
Why don't we just look at what they've done over the last couple of years. Richards has been either #1 or #2 in points on the team for the past few years, all while taking the hardest minutes 5on5, killing penalties and playing with one top6 winger the majority of the time.

Giroux is fantastic, but it's crystal clear who brings more to the table.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 10:41 AM
  #106
Hockeypete49
How you like me now!
 
Hockeypete49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 4,935
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Bingo.



Why don't we just look at what they've done over the last couple of years. Richards has been either #1 or #2 in points on the team for the past few years, all while taking the hardest minutes 5on5, killing penalties and playing with one top6 winger the majority of the time.

Giroux is fantastic, but it's crystal clear who brings more to the table.
I agree that Mike is the better all around player. But what I take offense to is when some members insist that G could not hold Mike's jock. Then I have to step in because in my opinion they are both special players. I am glad that we have them both! GO FLYERS

Hockeypete49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 10:54 AM
  #107
Flyotes
JVR is Pigeon Caw!
 
Flyotes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,202
vCash: 500
The Flyers talent at center is fantastic, that's for sure.

If we keep a core of Carter, Roo, and Richards, the team should be successful for a long long time.

Flyotes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 11:11 AM
  #108
Clown Baby*
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,714
vCash: 500
It'll be nice to have someone capable to fill Richards' shoes when his skills start to deteriorate because he pushed himself so hard as the captain [see Owen Nolan]. You can shift Richards to a pure shutdown role, and let Giroux have the reigns to the second line.

Clown Baby* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 11:15 AM
  #109
Gert B Frobe
Registered User
 
Gert B Frobe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: SE PA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,624
vCash: 500
I'm not sure Richards is all that much "better" than Giroux. They are very different players. They are both better in certain areas than the other. Overall I think Richards is the better player - not by much though. Giroux may end up becoming the better player as he seems to be steadily improving whereas Richards seemed to be more of a complete player right out of juniors.

The best things about the both of them:

They're both Flyers and they both play even better in the playoffs.

Gert B Frobe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 11:39 AM
  #110
infidelappel*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,507
vCash: 500
Zherdev is better than both IMO.

infidelappel* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 12:43 PM
  #111
mja
Negative Creep
 
mja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,523
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Why don't we just look at what they've done over the last couple of years. Richards has been either #1 or #2 in points on the team for the past few years, all while taking the hardest minutes 5on5, killing penalties and playing with one top6 winger the majority of the time.

Giroux is fantastic, but it's crystal clear who brings more to the table.
1. Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that G is better than Richie. I'm merely calling out the AINEC crowd.

2. Look at the last couple of years? You mean when Richards was a seasoned vet and Giroux was a rookie? Huh?

3. Can we ease up with argument about Richie's linemates? He's been saddled with a bottom 6 forward for large stretches for the last two seasons. His best PPG seasons were done with competent top 6 wingers - guys like Hartnell, Lupul, etc., not to mention the entire season he played with Gagne & Knuble. If I recall correctly, Giroux has had to play with the likes of Powe and Asham for large stretches of the last two seasons, as well.

4. It isn't crystal clear. Richie is a very good playmaker. Claude is an elite playmaker. Goal-scorer? The too-smart-for-the-boards crowd likes to ramble on about G's "weak" shot, and yet he's outscoring Richie and is on pace to score a very Richards-like 28 goals, many of which he's incredulously scoring with his "weak" wrist shot, despite being a pass-first player. Who is the better offensive player? It's Giroux.

Defensively, Richards is the superior player, but it isn't like G isn't already very good in his own zone. Not only that, G continues to improve. He's also better on draws than Richards is.

And let's talk about the ever-popular and vague "intangibles". While I agree that Richards is an amazing leader, Giroux is clearly ripping pages out of Mike's book. That hipcheck is something that I don't think Mike could have pulled off, but it is the kind of thing he'd do. No other forward on the team would do something like that. Giroux can and will do stuff like that. There are moments out there where he's willing the team to victory, much like Richards.

Giroux has shown an ability to completely take over hockey games, going back to his rookie season. To me, a guy who can do that on a consistent basis is a franchise player.

One thing I'll say is that Giroux has stood out as the best player on the ice more frequently this season than Richards has. Given that, I don't want to hear anything like "crystal clear" or "AINEC".

5. This is a silly argument to have. I love both players and am thrilled that I think they'll both have long storied careers in O&B. For me the argument boils down not to one group of fans over-hyping Giroux, but to another group of fans under-hyping him because they can't process the fact that their dogmatic stance that Richards' is the team's "franchise" player could possibly be challenged, let alone turned on it's ear. The fact of the matter is that it is entirely possible to have two "franchise" players, which is a poorly defined term anyway, and I'm not even sure either guy really fits that particular bill. We're lucky to have both of them.

mja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 02:02 PM
  #112
Hockeypete49
How you like me now!
 
Hockeypete49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 4,935
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
1. Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that G is better than Richie. I'm merely calling out the AINEC crowd.

2. Look at the last couple of years? You mean when Richards was a seasoned vet and Giroux was a rookie? Huh?

3. Can we ease up with argument about Richie's linemates? He's been saddled with a bottom 6 forward for large stretches for the last two seasons. His best PPG seasons were done with competent top 6 wingers - guys like Hartnell, Lupul, etc., not to mention the entire season he played with Gagne & Knuble. If I recall correctly, Giroux has had to play with the likes of Powe and Asham for large stretches of the last two seasons, as well.

4. It isn't crystal clear. Richie is a very good playmaker. Claude is an elite playmaker. Goal-scorer? The too-smart-for-the-boards crowd likes to ramble on about G's "weak" shot, and yet he's outscoring Richie and is on pace to score a very Richards-like 28 goals, many of which he's incredulously scoring with his "weak" wrist shot, despite being a pass-first player. Who is the better offensive player? It's Giroux.

Defensively, Richards is the superior player, but it isn't like G isn't already very good in his own zone. Not only that, G continues to improve. He's also better on draws than Richards is.

And let's talk about the ever-popular and vague "intangibles". While I agree that Richards is an amazing leader, Giroux is clearly ripping pages out of Mike's book. That hipcheck is something that I don't think Mike could have pulled off, but it is the kind of thing he'd do. No other forward on the team would do something like that. Giroux can and will do stuff like that. There are moments out there where he's willing the team to victory, much like Richards.

Giroux has shown an ability to completely take over hockey games, going back to his rookie season. To me, a guy who can do that on a consistent basis is a franchise player.

One thing I'll say is that Giroux has stood out as the best player on the ice more frequently this season than Richards has. Given that, I don't want to hear anything like "crystal clear" or "AINEC".

5. This is a silly argument to have. I love both players and am thrilled that I think they'll both have long storied careers in O&B. For me the argument boils down not to one group of fans over-hyping Giroux, but to another group of fans under-hyping him because they can't process the fact that their dogmatic stance that Richards' is the team's "franchise" player could possibly be challenged, let alone turned on it's ear. The fact of the matter is that it is entirely possible to have two "franchise" players, which is a poorly defined term anyway, and I'm not even sure either guy really fits that particular bill. We're lucky to have both of them.
Well said.

Hockeypete49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 02:08 PM
  #113
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Doof Warrior
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 49,565
vCash: 500
This is sort of like a husband and wife bickering furiously over which of their two Lamborghinis is better.

Beef Invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 02:15 PM
  #114
mja
Negative Creep
 
mja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,523
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
This is sort of like a husband and wife bickering furiously over which of their two Lamborghinis is better.


Yes, yes it is.

It's just that the wife keeps on insisting that the other lamborghini isn't even close to hers.

mja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 02:35 PM
  #115
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Doof Warrior
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 49,565
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post


Yes, yes it is.

It's just that the wife keeps on insisting that the other lamborghini isn't even close to hers.
Well, it doesn't shift into reverse as smoothly.

Beef Invictus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 03:16 PM
  #116
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
I agree that Mike is the better all around player. But what I take offense to is when some members insist that G could not hold Mike's jock. Then I have to step in because in my opinion they are both special players. I am glad that we have them both! GO FLYERS
It's fun to create imaginary arguments to have with paper tigers, huh? No one ever said he couldn't hold Richards' jock, I (and others, clearly) have said that Richards is demonstrably better defensively, and, therefore, it isn't a close comparison if you're talking about them as all-around players.

There's a BIG difference between "can't hold jock" and that statement. Giroux is clearly a very good player, and competes hard defensively. There is a massive leap between Giroux and, say, Briere, who CAN'T hold Richards' jock defensively.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 03:19 PM
  #117
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gert B Frobe View Post
I'm not sure Richards is all that much "better" than Giroux. They are very different players. They are both better in certain areas than the other. Overall I think Richards is the better player - not by much though. Giroux may end up becoming the better player as he seems to be steadily improving whereas Richards seemed to be more of a complete player right out of juniors.

The best things about the both of them:

They're both Flyers and they both play even better in the playoffs.
How is it that recent history so easily disappears into the ether? Richards struggled MIGHTILY on the offensive side of the puck his first two years in the league.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 03:35 PM
  #118
Spongolium*
Potato Magician
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Bridgend,UK
Country: Wales
Posts: 8,653
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
How is it that recent history so easily disappears into the ether? Richards struggled MIGHTILY on the offensive side of the puck his first two years in the league.
I thought he was pretty good in the second year. 32 points in 59 games, And he played at least 20 of those games with a lingering injury.

He showed that he had a great deal of skill even then

Spongolium* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 04:43 PM
  #119
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,234
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
2. Look at the last couple of years? You mean when Richards was a seasoned vet and Giroux was a rookie? Huh?
Their present day abilities are being compared. Who's better right now is one thing, whether or not that's fair is another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
3. Can we ease up with argument about Richie's linemates? He's been saddled with a bottom 6 forward for large stretches for the last two seasons. His best PPG seasons were done with competent top 6 wingers - guys like Hartnell, Lupul, etc., not to mention the entire season he played with Gagne & Knuble. If I recall correctly, Giroux has had to play with the likes of Powe and Asham for large stretches of the last two seasons, as well.
Giroux was a ~45point guy with scrub wingers. Richards was a 60 point guy. Either way, I would agree that they possess different but roughly equivalent offensive abilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
4. It isn't crystal clear. Richie is a very good playmaker. Claude is an elite playmaker. Goal-scorer? [Girooux]'s outscoring Richie and is on pace to score a very Richards-like 28 goals... Who is the better offensive player? It's Giroux.
Giroux is not an elite playmaker. Joe Thorton is an elite play maker. Peter Forsberg was an elite playmaker. Richards and Giroux are just very good.

Giroux is outscoring Richards, by two goals. Wow. If anything this supports my case when you consider the guys they've both been playing with. Not to mention your assertion that Giroux is an "elite" playmaker and Richards is just "very good" doesn't really jive with their assist totals (Giroux has three more).

I don't know why you're rambling about his shot. I didn't mention it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
Defensively, Richards is the superior player, but it isn't like G isn't already very good in his own zone. Not only that, G continues to improve. He's also better on draws than Richards is.
Holy **** guys, Giroux is .4 percent better on draws than Richards!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
One thing I'll say is that Giroux has stood out as the best player on the ice more frequently this season than Richards has. Given that, I don't want to hear anything like "crystal clear" or "AINEC".
That's debatable, for one. Also, there's more to being good than "standing out".

Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
5. This is a silly argument to have.
Yet you just wrote me a novel.

It is crystal clear who is the better player. That is different than saying it's not even close. But it is clear.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 05:39 PM
  #120
mja
Negative Creep
 
mja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,523
vCash: 500
First of all, I was responding to more than just you, I just took your post as a jumping off point, hence the rambling about shot, etc.

Secondly, if you don't think Giroux is an elite playmaker, I don't know what to tell you. Did you not see that pass to JVR the other night? Or the blind pass to Richards against the rags? Or the saucer pass to Pronger against the Hawks last season? Or the...well, hopefully you get the idea.

The man does things with the puck that no one else on this team can do, nor most of the rest of the league for that matter. That's the definition of elite.

Also, considering how often I'm told that Giroux isn't a center, he shouldn't be anywhere near Richie in draws. Instead, he's outpaced him the entire season. If I'm not mistaken, this is as close as Richie has been to G in that department pretty much all season long. And if we're going to pimp up Richie's D play, we should note the gaping hole in his game that is face-off %.

Finally, my silly argument comment applies as equally to me writing novels as it does to Jester saying AINEC or you saying it's crystal clear who the better player is.

The fact of the matter is that is isn't entirely clear, and it definitely is pretty close.

By the way, I think you have the best username on the boards, hands-down.

mja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-26-2011, 06:11 PM
  #121
Giroux tha Damaja
Registered User
 
Giroux tha Damaja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mount Holly, NJ
Country: United States
Posts: 9,234
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Giroux tha Damaja
Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
Secondly, if you don't think Giroux is an elite playmaker, I don't know what to tell you. Did you not see that pass to JVR the other night? Or the blind pass to Richards against the rags? Or the saucer pass to Pronger against the Hawks last season? Or the...well, hopefully you get the idea.
He can make plays that are on an elite level. When the point totals are in the 90's, then I'll start calling him elite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
Also, considering how often I'm told that Giroux isn't a center, he shouldn't be anywhere near Richie in draws. Instead, he's outpaced him the entire season. If I'm not mistaken, this is as close as Richie has been to G in that department pretty much all season long.
Firstly, Giroux doesn't get extra credit for taking face-offs because someone told you he wasn't a center. Carter went to wing, Giroux is a center.

Second of all, If Giroux was outpacing him the entire season, then this wouldn't be the closest the two players have been all season long. That would mean Richards was out performing Giroux as of late. Either way, it's as good as even between them as of right now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
And if we're going to pimp up Richie's D play, we should note the gaping hole in his game that is face-off %.
Third, we don't get to Give Giroux props for being a smidge better than Richards at face-offs, then call it a gaping black hole in Richards' game. He's a hair's breadth away from 50%. That isn't a black hole (49.8%), that is almost precisely average.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
The fact of the matter is that is isn't entirely clear, and it definitely is pretty close.
There is no "fact" of the matter really. And it is pretty clear to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mja View Post
By the way, I think you have the best username on the boards, hands-down.
Thanks.

Giroux tha Damaja is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2011, 07:25 PM
  #122
Hockeypete49
How you like me now!
 
Hockeypete49's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: South Jersey
Country: Isle of Man
Posts: 4,935
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
It's fun to create imaginary arguments to have with paper tigers, huh? No one ever said he couldn't hold Richards' jock, I (and others, clearly) have said that Richards is demonstrably better defensively, and, therefore, it isn't a close comparison if you're talking about them as all-around players.

There's a BIG difference between "can't hold jock" and that statement. Giroux is clearly a very good player, and competes hard defensively. There is a massive leap between Giroux and, say, Briere, who CAN'T hold Richards' jock defensively.
You said "NOT EVEN CLOSE" same difference. Just admit you are wrong in your assessment of Giroux. He clearly is a very good player. What did they call him on Versus tonight? The new head honcho in Philly! Mike's the best. But Giroux is closing the gap very quickly. I (and others, clearly) have stated that. We need to close this thread as it is a dumb debate.

Hockeypete49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-01-2011, 07:38 PM
  #123
mdm815
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: pa
Country: Ukraine
Posts: 459
vCash: 500
Just going to throw my two cents in here, even though it's pretty late in the game.

I'm not gonna get involved in who I think is the better player, but I'll say this; if Mike Richards was not on this team, I could see Claude Giroux being the captain one day. He has the work ethic, the drive, and the talent to be put into that kind of position. I could easily see him having an A down the road on this club.

mdm815 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2011, 12:09 PM
  #124
lumm0x
Registered User
 
lumm0x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 121
vCash: 500
Quote:
We need to close this thread as it is a dumb debate.
Truest words spoken in the whole thread.

Richards is the face of Philly right now. Our forward core is very close in age. With them we will be a successful team. Why argue about who is marginally better than who? A great number of our forwards are excellent in many ways. Seems to be alot of individuals having their man crush challenged in here.

lumm0x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-02-2011, 12:13 PM
  #125
Jester
Registered User
 
Jester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: St. Andrews
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
You said "NOT EVEN CLOSE" same difference. Just admit you are wrong in your assessment of Giroux. He clearly is a very good player. What did they call him on Versus tonight? The new head honcho in Philly! Mike's the best. But Giroux is closing the gap very quickly. I (and others, clearly) have stated that. We need to close this thread as it is a dumb debate.
No it's not. If it was, then I would have said the other. Paper tigers everywhere. My assessment was centered specifically in praising just how good Richards is, at no point was it based in disparaging Giroux.

The list of stupid **** said on Versus is a pretty long list... really want to cite those talking heads?

I'm not wrong in my assessment of Giroux... it's MY OPINION, and you have yours. When I asked you to provide actual critical analysis of why my opinion was wrong you reverted to a 4 y/o and offered up an empty vessel of rhetorical blathering.

Jester is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:49 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.