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Old
02-26-2011, 11:37 PM
  #451
dulzhok
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Hindsight rules
Foresight rules more.

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02-26-2011, 11:56 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Foresight rules more.

Some of your arguments are off the wall. Jordan Eberle and Giroux?

Every single franchise in the league can look back at drafts past and say " Why didn't we take that guy!" The draft is a educated crapshoot. I'll take our draft record over lots of other teams. You win some you lose some.

I guess in your expert view you have already seen enough of Fisher to surmise we overpayed for him? A mid to late first round is not worth Fisher for 2 1/4 years? I guess it's true when they say the majority of HF'ers overvalue draft picks.

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02-27-2011, 12:05 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Hamhuis for one. Oh wait, already squandered that last year.

1st rd pick. Oh wait, already used that to overpay for Fisher.

Glaude Giroux. Oh wait, already traded that draft pick for Brendan Witt.

Jordan Eberle. Oh wait, we used that pick to select Chet Pickard who has no value now.
--------

You are right though. We don't have as many assets as we used to have, and it will difficult to get a significant piece back unless we trade one of our few roster players of value (Hornqvist,Wilson, Weber, Suter, Rinne, maybe Lindack).


Even without this kind of ridculous hindsight-is-20/20 argument, Giroux was selected with the draft pick immediately before the pick you're kvetching about trading away.

Or were you just thinking about how much it would benefit this franchise to have Semyon Varlamov?


Hell, by that token, we should be more pissed up here 'cause we drafted Nikolay Zherdev instead of Ryan Suter, or Dan Fritsche instead of Shea Weber.

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Old
02-27-2011, 12:06 AM
  #454
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Originally Posted by predfan24 View Post
Every single franchise in the league can look back at drafts past and say " Why didn't we take that guy!"
But not every franchise can look back and see that their GM hasn't picked a legit scoring-line player in 19 years.

With hindsight, you shine light on foresight (TM).

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02-27-2011, 12:13 AM
  #455
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
But not every franchise can look back and see that their GM hasn't picked a legit scoring-line player in 19 years.

With hindsight, you shine light on foresight (TM).
False. Problem is, he plays in Russia. I would also put Hornqvist and eventually Wilson up there.

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02-27-2011, 12:15 AM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Hell, by that token, we should be more pissed up here 'cause we drafted Nikolay Zherdev instead of Ryan Suter, or Dan Fritsche instead of Shea Weber.
Yes, in hindsight, Columbus has royally sucked since they came into this world. At least we can be proud of ourselves for being better than them.


Last edited by dulzhok: 02-27-2011 at 12:38 AM.
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Old
02-27-2011, 12:20 AM
  #457
dulzhok
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Originally Posted by gopreds9 View Post
False. Problem is, he plays in Russia.
You're making projections you will never know the answer to. And, Poile played a part, or non-part I should say, in Radulov's situaton.

But whatever, give him Radulov. The guy who maybe could have been a legit scoringine player.


Last edited by dulzhok: 02-27-2011 at 12:26 AM.
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02-27-2011, 12:25 AM
  #458
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i would love a scorer

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02-27-2011, 12:36 AM
  #459
Viqsi
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Yes, in highlight, Columbus has royally sucked since they came into this world. At least we can be proud of ourselves for being better than them.
...congratulations, you managed to completely miss the point.

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Old
02-27-2011, 01:27 AM
  #460
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
But not every franchise can look back and see that their GM hasn't picked a legit scoring-line player in 19 years.

With hindsight, you shine light on foresight (TM).
Radulov is a first line player. Erat, Hornqvist, Hartnell, and Wilson are all legit top 6 forwards. Not gonna sit here and argue about hindsight. I have yet to see a perfect GM make every pick perfectly.

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02-27-2011, 01:31 AM
  #461
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Originally Posted by SK All Day View Post
i would love a scorer
I keep hearing people say this. For one who is available? Secondly, this team is not one offensive player away from all of a sudden magically being a good offensive team. Say we went out and got Penner or Hemsky, would we be a better team? Yes. Would we magically hop into the upper half of the league in scoring? No, Unless they developed some amazing chemistry, that wouldn't happen.

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02-27-2011, 09:35 AM
  #462
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I figured I'd put this here instead of making a new thread. After serious consideration, it may be time to look at reconstructing this lineup. There have been some constants. Legwand and Erat. There have been some new additions the last few years, SK, Wilson and Hornqvist. There have been the holdovers as well in Smithson, Ward and Tootoo. There is some new blood in Spaling and Halischuk. Fisher is brand new to us. The old guard is almost out the door: Arnott, Sully and Dumont.

The roster has changed continually over the years with some constant holdovers and while I have always been a fan and stood up for Legwand, it's time for him to go. He's an excellent player for us but he's also a player that has never gotten us to the next level as a team. Same can be said for Erat. I'm not saying I hate them. I'm not saying they're not valuable. I'm saying, one of two things should happen, we need to start moving some of these guys because they are part of inconsistency issues or find a coach that can get them to become more consistent.

The up and down roller coaster year after year I believe is a tad much to take. We show signs of doing well then we show signs of being completely lost. I don't expect wins every night. I don't even expect them to be showing 100% effort every night. What I would like is 9 out of every 10 games to show up to play and mean it and let the cards fall where they may. If the effort is there like it should be, this team would probably put up a record in the 5-3-2 range or 6-3-1 range every 10 games or so. That is a guess at best but probably somewhat realistic. Probably throw some 5-4-1 in there too.

While we probably average out to that over the course of time, how we do it is the issue at hand. Massive winning streaks followed by massive losing streaks. I believe we're about to go on an upturn as it seems about the time where we get hot because the effort is there, the bounces haven't gone our way. One lucky bounce for us and we're off and running again. Problem is, we're counting on lucky bounces as opposed to solid two way play every night.

I believe we actually have better top 6 talent in the sense that we have depth up front now. In years past it was always, Arnott, Dumont, Sully, Leggy and Erat and who would play the 6th spot. We have two lines right now with guys that can play top 6 and we even have a few that round out the top 9 decently. We need to start showing up or blow the roster up.

I think patience is a wonderful thing when building a team but even by blowing up the roster, you're still getting decent pieces in return if we trade some of our better talent. People are gonna say, would Erat or Legwand or Dumont waive their NTC's, well, anything is possible. It comes down to, who would take them on and who would we get in return for them. It's about time to field those questions because I just don't feel we're going anywhere with them on the roster anymore.

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02-27-2011, 10:03 AM
  #463
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Here's what I think is funny. Fans want us to get rid of Legwand becuase he's not an elite scorer, or Erat for the same because they make middle of the road money, they're not paid like great players because they aren't great players. We expect crown reserve for the same price as crown black (or we expect Malkin for Chris Kunitz pay). Yes their are players that make 4m a year that produce better, and those players will get a pay raise but for what Legwand is his pay isn't that far off, especially coming off the season he had his contract year. Looking at him now directly compared to Fisher and I can say they're about value players. Dumont and Sullivan on the other hand are huge handicaps for this team. Neither are serviceable players any more.

Our problems aren't Legwand, Erat, SK or Wilson, those guys are all good secondary players that every team needs or every good team needs. Our problem is, those are our best players.

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02-27-2011, 11:22 AM
  #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Our problems aren't Legwand, Erat, SK or Wilson, those guys are all good secondary players that every team needs or every good team needs. Our problem is, those are our best players.
...on offense. We have similar issues on defense up here.

(Hey, BFC, is it about that time for us to put together another hypothetical Nashlumbus Pred Jackets team? )

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02-27-2011, 11:23 AM
  #465
glenngineer
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Here's what I think is funny. Fans want us to get rid of Legwand becuase he's not an elite scorer, or Erat for the same because they make middle of the road money, they're not paid like great players because they aren't great players. We expect crown reserve for the same price as crown black (or we expect Malkin for Chris Kunitz pay). Yes their are players that make 4m a year that produce better, and those players will get a pay raise but for what Legwand is his pay isn't that far off, especially coming off the season he had his contract year. Looking at him now directly compared to Fisher and I can say they're about value players. Dumont and Sullivan on the other hand are huge handicaps for this team. Neither are serviceable players any more.

Our problems aren't Legwand, Erat, SK or Wilson, those guys are all good secondary players that every team needs or every good team needs. Our problem is, those are our best players.
Hope this wasn't being directed at my post. I know they're not elite players. I know they're good complimentary players. I also realize we don't necessarily have that stud up front just yet or maybe we do in Wilson but he's not being allowed to be that type of player because of the system.

What I am saying is with all these pieces we've had over the years, we've been terribly inconsistent. We are up and down all the time and that's not going to get it done. We've never gone in to the playoffs on a roll but by just squeaking in a lot of times and we've already given all that we can to get there and once we're there, we're spent. Yeah, we've given teams a good fight but at the end of the day, our inconsistencies shine thru.

Do you think we spent the 7th overall pick on Wilson to be a good secondary player? No. Then why do we use him as one? Give him first line minutes. Let him make his mistakes but see what he can do with 18-20 minutes a night. Put him out there with Legwand and SK. Let Fisher center Erat and Hornqvist.

Trotz continually tries Fisher with Erat and SK and it hasn't worked. Wilson got moved back with Legwand and Hornqvist yesterday and we scored two goals with production from that line. Go figure.

While I enjoy matchups and having a good shutdown line, it doesn't need to be with 3 offensively challenged players. Come playoff time, a third line has to chip in offensively and a line with Smitty isn't going to do that on a consistent basis.

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02-27-2011, 11:27 AM
  #466
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Our problem is, those are our best players.
I would agree with that statement. I think that's why you've seen fans adamant that we need need something more.

If you look at Vancouver, their shutdown specialist w/ occasional offense (Malholtra) makes makes 2.5m fresh off the UFA market. Their streaky secondary scorer (Raymond) makes 2.5.

But yes, we have nothing close to Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, etc.

Legwand and Erat are overpaid, I really don't think you'd find a team in the league willing to take on their contract.

The only reason I'd want to move them is so we could move that money into a better investment. If they made $2.5m each, there would be no need to trade them, unless they could be used as a chip to find a legit scoring-liner.

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Old
02-27-2011, 11:28 AM
  #467
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
(Hey, BFC, is it about that time for us to put together another hypothetical Nashlumbus Pred Jackets team? )
Or hire a hitman to take out the Detroit Red Wings and Chicago Blackhawks. Maybe see if we can get a bulk rate special for the Nucks too.

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Old
02-27-2011, 11:39 AM
  #468
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Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
Or hire a hitman to take out the Detroit Red Wings and Chicago Blackhawks. Maybe see if we can get a bulk rate special for the Nucks too.
If we're going that route, I want Calgary taken down too. Nothing business, just personal.

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02-27-2011, 11:50 AM
  #469
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OTF take on recent roster moves and the pending deadline focusing on the financials.

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02-27-2011, 12:27 PM
  #470
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Originally Posted by Preds Partisan View Post
OTF take on recent roster moves and the pending deadline focusing on the financials.
First, Dirk doesn't account for taking guys off the roster. We have more than he claims, but still not enough to acquire a big name scorer like Penner or Hemsky (who are each owed more than $900k for the rest of the year).

Weiss, who we were discussing yesterday is owed $700k as of today and $667k as of tomorrow. It'd be the perfect move, but it's unlikely. However the point is it's not off the table because of the cap. Sending Blake back to Milwaukee opens up enough space to do it and have a little breathing room. Trading a roster player for Weiss (likely a must) would open up even more space.

I'm not saying Weiss is the target, but Dirk failed to address the fact that Poile does have plenty of room to work with, especially if he moves guys off the current roster in a deal.

I'd prefer this wasn't our move, but for example...even with Dirk's figures Poile could acquire both Cogliano and Smid from EDM at a combined price of $>550k for the rest of the year. Bergfors from ATL would cost $203k for the rest of the year as of today and even less tomorrow.

Poile can make either one big move to acquire a piece or he can make two or more smaller deals to fill in the holes.

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02-27-2011, 12:49 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by Preds Partisan View Post
OTF take on recent roster moves and the pending deadline focusing on the financials.
I can haz bergfors?

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02-27-2011, 01:04 PM
  #472
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Hindsight rules
We aren't paid to be GMs. David Poile is.

If something isn't working out, who gives a crap about fans having foresight/hindsight. We are just calling it like it is. David Poile is the GM who makes the decisions to build our roster.

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02-27-2011, 01:51 PM
  #473
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Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
If you look at Vancouver, their shutdown specialist w/ occasional offense (Malholtra) makes makes 2.5m fresh off the UFA market. Their streaky secondary scorer (Raymond) makes 2.5.

But yes, we have nothing close to Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, etc.

Legwand and Erat are overpaid, I really don't think you'd find a team in the league willing to take on their contract.
While I agree with the assessment, I think you miss one important point; Malhotra and Raymond are not asked to play top6 minutes, whereas Leggy and Erat are. They aren't are shutdown specialist nor are they are streaky secondary scorer - they are our #2 center and one of our #1 wings. Should they be? As fans not one of use would say we're happy with them at their current productions. But....... on a Preds team with the money they have HISTORICALLY had to spend - they were important and they play important minutes.

Sully was a mistake - that one is on Poile. Dumont got viciously hit - I can't really blame Poile for that one. Arny, Leggy, Erat - those contract were just too long. But they weren't off $$$ by all that much when they were signed, and we needed them to sign to get through the LIARpold debacle. (and I still wonder how much the locker room, and Arny in particular, had to do with us losing Radulov)

Really, what kinda' player do you think we get for their money? Sure, might get lucky, but realistically, what do we get? We talk guys like Kessel - they sign $5mil+. If we sign them, then we have a couple of them and we end up with our 2nd line being castoffs and guys like Ward. There's only so much cash, and it's going to sign Weber this year, Suter next. Somewhere we have to get Pex for about 3 more years.

Somehow we have to make it work with those non-elites; look at our injuries this year - imagine if we'd had a few $5mil guys rather than extra $3-4mil guys; no depth at all, with our injuries, we'd be toast.

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Old
02-27-2011, 01:54 PM
  #474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
Foresight rules more.
All I've seen is a bunch of opinions based on hindsight. I guess I'm missing something

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02-27-2011, 01:57 PM
  #475
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Originally Posted by Stranger View Post
We aren't paid to be GMs. David Poile is.

If something isn't working out, who gives a crap about fans having foresight/hindsight. We are just calling it like it is. David Poile is the GM who makes the decisions to build our roster.
I understand that. I just get tired of all of the same old, stale arguments about how we all need to jump on the blame Poile wagon because of something someone looked up several years after the fact. We aren't paid to be GMs, you're right. So why is it only fair to critique him instead of trying to look at it from his perspective at the time?

/rant

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