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2010/11 Fire Randy Carlyle / Bob Murray (Bob Extended 4 Yrs/ Fans = Life Sentence)

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Old
02-25-2011, 02:02 PM
  #401
TheFlyingV
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4 more years! Now where have I heard that before?



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02-25-2011, 02:33 PM
  #402
snarktacular
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVPeyton View Post
So, basically, the struggles of the team are his fault(including Hiller developing Vertigo, which from my understanding is absolutely ridiculous), while he gets not credit for the successes. Even if you chalk Fowler up to luck, Lubo, Lydman, Lilja and Sbisa were all acquisitions of his, and have all played very well. And to give him no credit for Fowler isn't right, either.
You're not getting my point. I did not mean to blame him directly for any of those numbered points. I meant to place blame for failing to plan for events that could be seen as possible.

For example, I did not blame Hiller's injury on Murray. I said that expecting Hiller to be healthy might be riskier than normal based on the factors I described, and that Murray failed to provide a contingency plan.

And yes there is no "credit" given. Not because I don't give him any credit, but because the scope of that post was to specifically rebut those points brought up by others. I have and will give Murray credit for plenty of things.

Some examples: Lydman was a bargain bin signing gone right. koivu was a big get. Visnovsky trade was a home run. I dislike the decision to keep Niedermayer and trade Pronger, but I do agree with 1) trading him if he insisted on that type of contract and 2) the return he got was good (especially because I love Sbisa). I disagreed with some of his picks (like Fowler, although I look wrong), but I love a lot of his other picks like Palmieri and Etem. And he held his ground and got Bobby to sign a nice and long term contract when I was expecting either a cheap, short term contract.

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02-25-2011, 02:40 PM
  #403
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4 years?

We won't be winning the Cup for at least 4 years then.

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02-25-2011, 03:10 PM
  #404
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Maybe he got extended because this team would be in 1st place in the division if not for 2 fluke illnesses which were beyond his control. Lydman's double vision, and Hiller's vertigo. If you want to blame him for mcbackup that's fine, but not many teams have backups that can carry workloads, THAT'S WHY THEY'RE BACKUPS. He's not my favorite GM, but he's done a good job. I guess it's just popular to rag GM's and coaches. Whatever.

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02-25-2011, 03:51 PM
  #405
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I've liked most of the moves Murray has made, and I like that he is not afraid to pull the trigger. I don't think there are any GMs available that are any better anyways so overall I think its a good signing

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02-25-2011, 04:54 PM
  #406
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I'm indifferent on the extension. I see Murray as a middle of the road GM. He's not horrible, but he's not amazing either. He's made some moves that turned out really well, and he's made some that I haven't liked.

The one thing I'll say about him is he is a big time cheap skate with cap hits and salary. That's beneficial in contract extensions and stuff, but as we've seen in the past it also leads him to take risks on bargain players he hopes will have a resurgence.

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02-25-2011, 05:51 PM
  #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
You're not getting my point. I did not mean to blame him directly for any of those numbered points. I meant to place blame for failing to plan for events that could be seen as possible.

For example, I did not blame Hiller's injury on Murray. I said that expecting Hiller to be healthy might be riskier than normal based on the factors I described, and that Murray failed to provide a contingency plan.

And yes there is no "credit" given. Not because I don't give him any credit, but because the scope of that post was to specifically rebut those points brought up by others. I have and will give Murray credit for plenty of things.

Some examples: Lydman was a bargain bin signing gone right. koivu was a big get. Visnovsky trade was a home run. I dislike the decision to keep Niedermayer and trade Pronger, but I do agree with 1) trading him if he insisted on that type of contract and 2) the return he got was good (especially because I love Sbisa). I disagreed with some of his picks (like Fowler, although I look wrong), but I love a lot of his other picks like Palmieri and Etem. And he held his ground and got Bobby to sign a nice and long term contract when I was expecting either a cheap, short term contract.
You also mentioned that having McBackup around meant a lot more of a workload for Hiller, increasing the chance of injury. For one, that's not necessarily true, and probably had little factor in Hiller's vertigo. Also, it's very hard to estimate, but given the percentage of games he played in when he wasn't hurt, his pace is around 69 starts(assuming he also would've started every game he missed, which is unlikely), which isn't anything crazy at all. It wasn't a split tandem, but nothing really out of the ordinary.

There was also a lot of reason to have some confidence in McBackup. He played great for us down the stretch last year, and hell, he even had some nice games this year. His numbers in Calgary weren't great, but I've heard from many places he was hung out to dry in Calgary and never given much of a chance and needed to get out. However, Hiller went down and it became a little too much for him IMO.

Murray has his faults, but I'd say a lot of guys in his position would've acted similarily, and while in hindsight it was a mistake to go with McBackup, I can understand the POV going into the season. However, he's also trying to correct his mistakes with the Emery signing and Ellis trade, which is always good(and something he takes hell for, which I've never understood).

As for the extension, I'm not sure it's warranted, and does basically mean he'll be here for a long time, unless he really screws up(none of this retarded crap some suggest like he'll be fired if he doesn't have a good enough deadline), but whatever, it's not the worst thing. He's done a good job of rebuilding, while staying fairly competitive, and we're doing a lot better than some expected. The misery following the losing streak reminds me of a Dallas Mavericks forum, where people suggested they blow up the team following a 5-game losing skid, despite the fact that they were like 4th in the conference and the losing streak was preceded by a 10-game winning streak(and followed by another 10-game winning streak). You'll never make a fair judgement of a team following their highest or lowest point.

EDIT-I'll also say Lydman was more than a bargain signing gone right, I think Murray and the staff really did their homework on this one. Lydman's a non flashy defenseman playing for a team that gets no media attention and was 3 years removed from being a contender, it's not hard to see why he'd fall through the cracks a bit. I don't believe a word Bob says, and I don't buy that they saw all the defensemen go and decided they should get active, which led to a quick Lydman signing. I think money was a factor to as why they didn't go after a Hamhuis or Volechenkov, but more in a cost efficiency sense. Lydman was just a better bang for their buck.

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02-26-2011, 04:38 AM
  #408
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Ugh, 4 years?

I wouldn't mind him being fired if we miss the playoffs this year... But whatever, he will only be safe for this season. He might as well get fired next year if we fail then.

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02-26-2011, 01:27 PM
  #409
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So, my question about this team would be.
Any team can make a deep playoff run with an incredibly hot goalie.
Hiller has shown the abilities to get that hot, but this is still a team
that is in transition, and struggling to stay relevant in the playoff race.

The sloppiness of this team really doesn't bode well for a playoff run.
For the long term good of the franchise, SHOULD the Ducks be making
moves for this year, or for the future?

I would love to see Teemu and some of the others in a playoff run again,
but this team just doesn't appear to be in a position to do anything special this year

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02-27-2011, 01:12 PM
  #410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVPeyton View Post
You also mentioned that having McBackup around meant a lot more of a workload for Hiller, increasing the chance of injury. For one, that's not necessarily true, and probably had little factor in Hiller's vertigo. Also, it's very hard to estimate, but given the percentage of games he played in when he wasn't hurt, his pace is around 69 starts(assuming he also would've started every game he missed, which is unlikely), which isn't anything crazy at all. It wasn't a split tandem, but nothing really out of the ordinary.
69 starts is a lot. Even 66 starts is a lot (assuming he misses a few more). Last year 10 players got 66 or more starts. 5, 8, 7, and 4 'tenders the previous years. Couple that with the fact that Hiller's max so far is 58 starts and that our defense is terrible (4th worst shots against in the league this year, 2nd worst in the league last year). He's a) unproven to handle that many starts b) starts more than average and c) faces way more work than average.

All this was known before the season started, and made it more likely that we would need to play our #2 or #3 more than average. I was saying this before the season started, so I know the signs were there. So even if it had nothing to do with his injury (I'm no doctor, but vertigo does seem like a kind of overwork injury, but even if not the extra work certainly makes the chance of something happening greater), anyone in charge should take it into account. Think like an insurance guy. Based on the known data, it was more likely than average that a backup would need to play. You can choose to ignore it, which Murray did, or you can choose to contingency plan by not going with a worse-than-average backup or getting a passable #3 as a backup-backup.
Quote:
There was also a lot of reason to have some confidence in McBackup. He played great for us down the stretch last year, and hell, he even had some nice games this year. His numbers in Calgary weren't great, but I've heard from many places he was hung out to dry in Calgary and never given much of a chance and needed to get out. However, Hiller went down and it became a little too much for him IMO.

Murray has his faults, but I'd say a lot of guys in his position would've acted similarily, and while in hindsight it was a mistake to go with McBackup, I can understand the POV going into the season. However, he's also trying to correct his mistakes with the Emery signing and Ellis trade, which is always good(and something he takes hell for, which I've never understood).
I agree that he did play well last year. But I repeat, it was 10 starts. His 10 starts in Calgary were horrible. His starts in prior years in Calgary were horrible (0.902 in 5 games, 0.889 in 14 games, and 0.885 in 10 games). I saw him look horrible first hand in multiple games. If I were a betting man I would place more emphasis on 29 games of data rather than 10 and say "that's the real McElhinney."

But that said, I was not completely against going with McElhinney as long as there was an insurance #3. Actually according to the interview with the Crunch owner, Murray seemed to agree that an insurance #3 was needed. But he didn't get one.

Which actually brings me to another point I didn't mention. Murray is directly responsible for the mess of a minor league system we have. He cut ties with the Pirates, then went a year without an AHL team. Then he gets an AHL team and guides it to the bottom of the league. Syracuse is the last place team. How is that beneficial for our prospects?

Quote:
As for the extension, I'm not sure it's warranted, and does basically mean he'll be here for a long time, unless he really screws up(none of this retarded crap some suggest like he'll be fired if he doesn't have a good enough deadline), but whatever, it's not the worst thing. He's done a good job of rebuilding, while staying fairly competitive, and we're doing a lot better than some expected. The misery following the losing streak reminds me of a Dallas Mavericks forum, where people suggested they blow up the team following a 5-game losing skid, despite the fact that they were like 4th in the conference and the losing streak was preceded by a 10-game winning streak(and followed by another 10-game winning streak). You'll never make a fair judgement of a team following their highest or lowest point.
Absolutely. Murray has done a good job of rebuilding. The prospect pool is vastly improved from Burke's years, although I still think it isn't that deep.

Quote:
EDIT-I'll also say Lydman was more than a bargain signing gone right, I think Murray and the staff really did their homework on this one. Lydman's a non flashy defenseman playing for a team that gets no media attention and was 3 years removed from being a contender, it's not hard to see why he'd fall through the cracks a bit. I don't believe a word Bob says, and I don't buy that they saw all the defensemen go and decided they should get active, which led to a quick Lydman signing. I think money was a factor to as why they didn't go after a Hamhuis or Volechenkov, but more in a cost efficiency sense. Lydman was just a better bang for their buck.
Now here I'll admit to some ignorance. I'm well aware that Lydman can be a beast, I had seen enough of him in 04, 06, and 07 to know that. But by the numbers he doesn't seem to have done nearly as well the past few years, with a precipitous drop and injuries last season. So that's why I say he was a "bargain bin" signing. He was a guy that had a bad year and signed a low contract because of it.

Even you say he was a "cost efficient" signing. Why else would he be cheap unless the market was relatively down on him? Hence the bargain hunting. And in this case it paid off in spades, since he's actually performing as good as, if not better, than he did in 05-06. And with only minor injuries too.

It's certainly possible they saw something in his game last year that led them to believe he could bounce back. But based on the cheap price I still prefer my theory.

And let me get something straight. A lot of people react negatively to the "bargain bin" label. I don't mean it as necessarily such. Cap bargains are crucial to winning in a cap league. That's why 1.5 million Beauchemin was just as critical to our Cup as anything else. GMs need to occasionally roll the dice to get a bargain. The key is a) you need to be right more than wrong and b) you can't do it for your entire team (and probably not for critical positions) because some will fail.

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02-27-2011, 02:39 PM
  #411
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In Murray's (?) defense, he cut ties with Portland to get a team closer to Anaheim so travel would be more efficient. I forget why the Iowa Chops (whom I just remembered existed lol) folded, but i'm sure it wasn't something he was in control of. The year out of the AHL was a result of that, though maybe there was more he could do.

This summer I would like to see him begin to build the franchise from the ground up, and that means bettering Syracuse. Get them a veteran goalie down there and a better coach and get the players buying into the system and getting used to a winning environment.

The entire makeup of his NHL level moves will depend entirely on Selanne imo. If he retires then I say scrap the entire second line and make Blake/Koivu our pseudo checking line. If he stays then we need to bring in a stop gap center for 1-2 years to anchor a third line or move Ryan over there and commit to it. Either way, we need a plan for the season and we need to stick with it. Not plug in Ryan as a center and then scrap it and then we are left without an upgrade at center or wing. Have Ryan work on the position all summer and he'll be fine.

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02-27-2011, 04:38 PM
  #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidy2d View Post
In Murray's (?) defense, he cut ties with Portland to get a team closer to Anaheim so travel would be more efficient. I forget why the Iowa Chops (whom I just remembered existed lol) folded, but i'm sure it wasn't something he was in control of. The year out of the AHL was a result of that, though maybe there was more he could do.

This summer I would like to see him begin to build the franchise from the ground up, and that means bettering Syracuse. Get them a veteran goalie down there and a better coach and get the players buying into the system and getting used to a winning environment.

The entire makeup of his NHL level moves will depend entirely on Selanne imo. If he retires then I say scrap the entire second line and make Blake/Koivu our pseudo checking line. If he stays then we need to bring in a stop gap center for 1-2 years to anchor a third line or move Ryan over there and commit to it. Either way, we need a plan for the season and we need to stick with it. Not plug in Ryan as a center and then scrap it and then we are left without an upgrade at center or wing. Have Ryan work on the position all summer and he'll be fine.
Totally agree. What Murray does or doesn't do with the 2nd and 3rd lines in the near future will go a long way in determining his competence as a GM.

http://www.anaheimcalling.com/2011/2...lateral-damage

That article got me thinking about the Pronger trade a little. Not sure I totally agree, but the writer made some good points.


Last edited by Jesus Teemu: 02-27-2011 at 04:44 PM.
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02-27-2011, 04:52 PM
  #413
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Couldn't read past Pronger for Carter and Sbisa.

Pronger to Philly, much like he was to Anaheim, was a move to push for the cup. Jeff Carter and late first round picks do not have the same value when your team is in that position.

The "dumb" move was keeping Niedermayer for one season versus Pronger for 5+, but nobody wanted to see Scott retire or play elsewhere and obviously seemed to be more a "Duck for life" than Pronger did. In the end with a future of Sbisa and Fowler, Anaheim will be better off than having Pronger and neither of those two but the true gains of that are a year or two away at best and even still Murray really lucked out with Fowler.

Hell maybe if we kept Pahlsson instead of getting Wisniewski we have someone to shut down Detroit besides RPG and we win game 7. There are too many hypotheticals to go over, all we can do is modify our current roster and push on.

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02-27-2011, 05:10 PM
  #414
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I don't understand the logic behind calling the guy 'cheap'. When exactly did he buy the team from HS? Who signs the checks again? The bargain bin shopping is the result of being a budget team, not because Bob Murray decided to play Henry Samueli's financial advisor. If you'd like to call anyone cheap call up the owner.

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02-27-2011, 05:53 PM
  #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidy2d View Post
In Murray's (?) defense, he cut ties with Portland to get a team closer to Anaheim so travel would be more efficient. I forget why the Iowa Chops (whom I just remembered existed lol) folded, but i'm sure it wasn't something he was in control of. The year out of the AHL was a result of that, though maybe there was more he could do.

This summer I would like to see him begin to build the franchise from the ground up, and that means bettering Syracuse. Get them a veteran goalie down there and a better coach and get the players buying into the system and getting used to a winning environment.

The entire makeup of his NHL level moves will depend entirely on Selanne imo. If he retires then I say scrap the entire second line and make Blake/Koivu our pseudo checking line. If he stays then we need to bring in a stop gap center for 1-2 years to anchor a third line or move Ryan over there and commit to it. Either way, we need a plan for the season and we need to stick with it. Not plug in Ryan as a center and then scrap it and then we are left without an upgrade at center or wing. Have Ryan work on the position all summer and he'll be fine.
Yeah I totally blanked on the minor league thing. Murray cut ties with the Chops, not the Pirates. Burke cut the Pirates. And Murray kind of had to move out of Des Moines because they defaulted.

It sucks that Murray didn't get a replacement. It might be hard to get a replacement as it was kind of last minute. OTOH, if they were missing payments or something, the Ducks should have had some warning. I guess I can't put too much blame there. I take it back.

But the mess with Syracuse, I can place firmly on Murray.

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