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Is it time to move Mike Green? (aka the hat0r thread)

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Old
03-01-2011, 05:36 PM
  #26
Mr Gone
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
in a word. no.

why dont you watch wideman play a game or two in the playoffs first?

i am glad mcphee got wideman, but this is a player ripped as hard for his defensive zone play as green while playing next to chara while green plays next to another whipping boy, schultz.

lets see the games after the first 82 and watch them all play.

repeat. in a word. no. in two words. no way. in a three words. come on, dude.
This has nothing to do with Wideman. Its about paying 7mill for a guy that will end being a second pairing guy. He does not play well banged up. He has toughed it out a lot the past few seasons. But his game really drop's off. I guess we will see how he holds up in the playoffs.

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03-01-2011, 05:38 PM
  #27
Jules Winnfield
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Well, ok. Right now the "best offensive defenseman in the game" is #40 in pts/game among defensemen. He has a long way to go to prove that he can still put up big numbers in a more conventional system that the Caps now seem to prefer. Plus he has a lot to prove in playoffs, where so far he's delivered pretty far from a 5-6m performance.

Most people here are fine with paying Green whatever money based essentially on the belief that he can become solid defensively, physically durable, and still maintain offensive numbers from the run-and-gun days. I don't share that belief, so I wouldn't pay Green the kind of money appropriate for a player who fits that description.
Ok with that argument, so is Ovechkin the 9th best player in the game right now then? Of course not. There are other factors that come in to consideration. Washington PPG are down because of Boudreau's system and injuries.

Green is still regarded as the best offensive defenseman in the game. I think everyone recognizes the team isn't scoring as much this year.

Say what you want about what he has to prove, several other players in the NHL have gotten big money for less than what Green has done.

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03-01-2011, 05:46 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Mr Gone View Post
This has nothing to do with Wideman. Its about paying 7mill for a guy that will end being a second pairing guy. He does not play well banged up. He has toughed it out a lot the past few seasons. But his game really drop's off. I guess we will see how he holds up in the playoffs.
The concept of "2nd pairing" is something fans worry about a whole lot more than coaches and GMs. If Green is good enough to play 25 minutes a night on a good team (which he is), then he's not a 2nd pairing-level guy regardless of which line of the lineup card his name appears. Having three 1st pairing defensemen is a good thing. The only reason you don't see most teams do it is because of the cap -- it's hard to pay for three top pairing guys. But if Carlson and Alzner are going to be paid like #3-4 defensmen for a couple more years (which they will be, due to being RFAs), then you can afford to have a big ticket guy like Green too.

Assuming for the sake of argument that Green really will be passed by JC/KA next year, trading Green because the 3rd best D on a team doesn't usually make $6m a year or whatever is a crappy reason to make a trade. .

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03-01-2011, 05:47 PM
  #29
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I pointed this out before, but there are two defensemen in the league with multiple 70 point seasons on their resume. One is Mike Green, the other has his name on the Norris 6 times. Dude's getting paid. If we're lucky, it's at the Backstrom/Semin rate.

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Old
03-01-2011, 05:52 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Jules Winnfield View Post
Ok with that argument, so is Ovechkin the 9th best player in the game right now then? Of course not. There are other factors that come in to consideration. Washington PPG are down because of Boudreau's system and injuries.

Green is still regarded as the best offensive defenseman in the game. I think everyone recognizes the team isn't scoring as much this year.

Say what you want about what he has to prove, several other players in the NHL have gotten big money for less than what Green has done.
My argument was not that stats make Mike Green #40 in the league, but that they put a big question mark on the claim that he's the best offensive defenseman in the game. And if the new system does not allow him to play like the best OD, then why pay him at best-OD rate?

And to end the subject of stats -- Ovechkin's stats also don't mean that he's #9, but then again they support the argument that he's probably not close to #1 right now.

Finally, the fact that yes, there are a lot of overpaid players in the NHL, does not make me excited about overpaying for Green. If keeping him requires an overpayment relative to what he really brings to the team (in playoffs), I'd rather somebody else overpay him after paying through the nose to get him from the Caps.

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03-01-2011, 06:01 PM
  #31
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a second pairing guy. define that for me? he plays top 10 minutes in the league and leads his team in minutes. i think you confuse the 1st defense assignment with first pair minutes.

green leads the team in pp minutes. he is 3rd in pk minutes behind poti who is not playing anymore. he is effectively then 1st in pp and 2nd in pk minutes. he's without question the team's #1 defenseman. not a 3 or 4.

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03-01-2011, 06:02 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post

Assuming for the sake of argument that Green really will be passed by JC/KA next year, trading Green because the 3rd best D on a team doesn't usually make $6m a year or whatever is a crappy reason to make a trade. .
Sans context, it's a crappy reason for sure. But the context is always going to be the alternative ways of distributing that $6m among various positions. And that's where a 2nd pairing guy making $6m will probably not be the most effective way of spending that money. For sure, you're limited by the players and trades that are actually available, so maybe you won't find a better alternaive, but generally speaking..

Of course, that's a big initial assumption. I think the next season and two playoff runs will give us a lot of useful information, so I think it's fine to wait. But if there was a good offer, I'd be willing to listen.

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03-01-2011, 06:07 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
a second pairing guy. define that for me? he plays top 10 minutes in the league and leads his team in minutes. i think you confuse the 1st defense assignment with first pair minutes.

green leads the team in pp minutes. he is 3rd in pk minutes behind poti who is not playing anymore. he is effectively then 1st in pp and 2nd in pk minutes. he's without question the team's #1 defenseman. not a 3 or 4.
Umm.. nobody's disputing that. Is it not clear that the whole 2nd pairing talk was part of a hypothetical scenario discussion?

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03-01-2011, 06:17 PM
  #34
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ovechkin playing the hands of stone version tonight

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Old
03-01-2011, 06:18 PM
  #35
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caps cranking the throttle open on the offense tonight. no finish. here's hoping something pops soon.

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Old
03-01-2011, 06:19 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by artilector View Post
Sans context, it's a crappy reason for sure. But the context is always going to be the alternative ways of distributing that $6m among various positions. And that's where a 2nd pairing guy making $6m will probably not be the most effective way of spending that money. For sure, you're limited by the players and trades that are actually available, so maybe you won't find a better alternaive, but generally speaking..

Of course, that's a big initial assumption. I think the next season and two playoff runs will give us a lot of useful information, so I think it's fine to wait. But if there was a good offer, I'd be willing to listen.
I understand the principle that it can be smart to deal from strength. But my point is that this:

1st pairing: $6m - $2.75m
2nd Pairing $2m - $3m

...is no better or worse than this:

1st pairing: $2m - 3m
2nd pairing: $6m - $2.75m

... if both pairings are capable of playing 20+ minutes a night. Simply declaring Green 2nd pairing because other guys get better is foolish, IMO. If you're trading Green, you're trading a 1st pairing defensemen. Own that. If it's the right thing to do, salary and everything else considered, then it's the right thing to do. If it's not, it's not.

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Old
03-01-2011, 06:23 PM
  #37
txpd
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Originally Posted by CapsWolverinesUSA View Post
Simply declaring Green 2nd pairing because other guys get better is foolish, IMO. If you're trading Green, you're trading a 1st pairing defensemen. Own that. .
this

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Old
03-01-2011, 06:24 PM
  #38
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wideman is getting that shot on the net.

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Old
03-01-2011, 06:29 PM
  #39
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past halfway. no pp's. no goals. so far same stuff

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Old
03-01-2011, 06:31 PM
  #40
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i think its time to move Wideman.

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03-01-2011, 06:41 PM
  #41
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a 0-0 first period. what a surprise

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Old
03-01-2011, 07:02 PM
  #42
Mr Gone
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Nobody is calling Green a second pair talent. I am just looking at what we have on the team now. And what we are going to have to pay to keep Green.

If we can put Carlson into Greens roll. We will have +5mill to play with.

And the trade would bring a king ransom seeing he is still a RFA. With all the draft picks we have lost. We need a way to keep the pipe line full.

The team is so top heavy as it is. And this season really showed just how top heavy they are. With the big guns not scoring. It exposed the lack of secondary scoring.(Yes there was a few guys the stepped up. But nothing was sustained) I just cant see putting 7mill into one D-man. When we have players that can step into the role. And we can get a great return.

How much Green plays the rest of the season will tell a lot. I see him as get hurt more and more.

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Old
03-01-2011, 07:14 PM
  #43
Robert Theodorson
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This is a wait and see question/answer

If he does absolute nothing in the playoffs..........again, then yes absolutely. Never been a fan of his, his 31 goal season was pretty cool but after that his welcome IMO has worn out.

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Old
03-01-2011, 07:20 PM
  #44
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Keep Green


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Old
03-01-2011, 07:48 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
I pointed this out before, but there are two defensemen in the league with multiple 70 point seasons on their resume. One is Mike Green, the other has his name on the Norris 6 times. Dude's getting paid. If we're lucky, it's at the Backstrom/Semin rate.

One of these players is not like the other. Comparing them is laughable.

Green put up huge numbers on a run and gun team. A team that has won nothing.

Green better hope the man who got him that first sweet contract isn't around when he is looking for Backstrom money because as of right now Mike Green isn't getting that kind of cash from any team.


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Old
03-01-2011, 09:42 PM
  #46
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If Green has another terrible playoffs why wouldn't they?
That's about the only way I would consider it. The guy is still so young for a Defender. A trade would have to net an all star calibre guy coming back.

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Old
03-01-2011, 09:45 PM
  #47
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One of these players is not like the other. Comparing them is laughable.
Green put up huge numbers on a run and gun team. A team that has won nothing.

Green better hope the man who got him that first sweet contract isn't around when he is looking for Backstrom money because as of right now Mike Green isn't getting that kind of cash from any team.
The problem is, it's not laughable. His numbers WILL demand that he be paid accordingly. No matter how bad we might complain he is defensively, you cannot ignore his offensive totals. He's got another year to get back on track and earn a big $$ deal. I wouldn't count him out yet.

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03-01-2011, 09:53 PM
  #48
txpd
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* Trading Green would not look good. I doubt the return would be a kings ransom. Players that are that good dont get traded. If they do, its because something is wrong.

* Carlson has shown very little aptitude for Green's role so far. He's shown quite a bit of talent and skill. He's good with a first pass and solid at skating the puck out of his own zone. The extent of his offense is jumping into the play for a shot. He hasnt been a play maker as yet and the power play got worse with him on the first unit.

* Green IS a one man breakout. Ive said this before. He can intercept a pass in front of the net and with his explosion can skate straight up the slot and create a 3 on 2 with the wingers. Carlson will never be able to do that. In fact there might be one or two other NHL defensemen that can. Thats just one of several skills that Green brings that are unique to him.

* Careful about dismissing the compare to Lidstrom. The point there is not that Green is as good as Lidstrom. Its that only Lidstrom has been good enough offensively to produce two 70pts seasons on defense. Other than Green. None of the others. Its not about Lidstrom. Its about Green and the rest of them.

This is not a player that you trade.

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Old
03-01-2011, 11:36 PM
  #49
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Give him one more season to prove himself, i've seen improvement this year.

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Old
03-01-2011, 11:50 PM
  #50
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Green's one-man breakout isn't exactly resulting in a whole lot of even strength goals this season. It's getting to the point where the team over relies on it because the regular team breakout is absolute **** which just gives opposing teams more incentive to target him. Defensively he isn't good enough to be justifying a huge caphit unless he is actually producing ungodly offense.

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