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The Cap Forces the Kings to Trade Away Salary Next Year

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Old
03-01-2011, 12:40 PM
  #26
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Fingers crossed that I am pleasantly surprised, but I am not expecting Schenn to be on the Kings next season. It would be one thing if he won a center job out of camp, but I would certainly not just hand one to him, snubbing guys that have seniority and have paid their dues (Stoll, Loktionov, even Moller). I really don't think there is anything wrong with letting him destroy the AHL for a year.

I don't remember where, but I thought that I read that Schenn's contract is structured in such a way that is very cap friendly (which I took to mean that he is unlikely to hit his bonus thresholds). If that is true, then wouldn't his cap number be in the neighborhood of $1M even if he did make the team?

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Old
03-01-2011, 12:43 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
If something happens where we get pushed up against the cap due to a new signing, trading Smyth wouldn't be as difficult as you'd think. He makes 4.500.000 but carries a cap hit of 6.250.000. Any team looking to reach the floor could do worse to make it as their dollar output is definitely not 6,250,000.
I keep hearing this argument (not just with Smyth, but for other players with cap hits higher than their salaries), and while it technically makes sense, I cannot think of a time when it would be practical. Has a team ever traded for such a player just to reach the cap floor? I really think that for as long as the Kings are buyers rather than sellers, we are stuck with Smyth.

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03-01-2011, 12:49 PM
  #28
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that is crazy that Schenn's cap number is so high. That needs to be addressed in the next CBA.

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03-01-2011, 01:10 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukyo View Post
Fingers crossed that I am pleasantly surprised, but I am not expecting Schenn to be on the Kings next season. It would be one thing if he won a center job out of camp, but I would certainly not just hand one to him, snubbing guys that have seniority and have paid their dues (Stoll, Loktionov, even Moller). I really don't think there is anything wrong with letting him destroy the AHL for a year.

I don't remember where, but I thought that I read that Schenn's contract is structured in such a way that is very cap friendly (which I took to mean that he is unlikely to hit his bonus thresholds). If that is true, then wouldn't his cap number be in the neighborhood of $1M even if he did make the team?
The org views Moller as a winger. Loktionov could still use another season in Manchester, and I think Schenn is clearly more NHL ready than he is.

I only put Schenn on the 2nd line over Stoll because of the defensive responsibility that comes with centering the 3rd line.

I'd be willing to bet Brayden makes the team full time out of camp next year.

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03-01-2011, 01:12 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
that is crazy that Schenn's cap number is so high. That needs to be addressed in the next CBA.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the teams are afforded a cap hit cushion to account for potential bonuses that a player might achieve. In Schenn's case, his actual per annum is $900k, and he has about 2.2M in possible bonuses. His cap hit is based on his per annum plus whatever bonuses he makes. If he makes none of those bonus targets, then his cap hit is just 900k.

I do remember reading from one of Lombardi's interviews that Schenn's contract is structured in such a way that unless he absolutely lights up the NHL, he will not be triggering much of his bonuses, thus keeping his cap hit low.

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03-01-2011, 01:14 PM
  #31
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Ah, found it: http://lakingsinsider.com/2010/06/02...-on-prospects/

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Old
03-01-2011, 01:17 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukyo View Post
I don't remember where, but I thought that I read that Schenn's contract is structured in such a way that is very cap friendly (which I took to mean that he is unlikely to hit his bonus thresholds). If that is true, then wouldn't his cap number be in the neighborhood of $1M even if he did make the team?
His base salary is 900K.

Because the CBA expires after next season, there is no bonus cushion, so his potential bonuses (2.xM), will be taking up CAP space whether he reaches them or not. At least, this is how it was explained to me.

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03-01-2011, 01:19 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
If something happens where we get pushed up against the cap due to a new signing, trading Smyth wouldn't be as difficult as you'd think. He makes 4.500.000 but carries a cap hit of 6.250.000. Any team looking to reach the floor could do worse to make it as their dollar output is definitely not 6,250,000.
Yeah. A wily veteran, much beloved in his home country, would be attractive to a team in need of a mentor for its group of young talented forwards (and one recently acquired stay at home defenseman)...

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Old
03-01-2011, 01:34 PM
  #34
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they could also easily 'grandfather' those bonus $$'s under the new CBA. any contracts and bonus' signed before the new CBA would be exempt. will have to wait and see, but i bet the nhlpa fights for this.

LA centers next year 1-Kopi, 2&3 Stoll, Lokti, Schenn, 4-Lewis

i think both Lokti and Schenn make the club out of camp and rotate in and out of the line up. LA has one more season of Stoll to help mentor both of these kids and should make the most of that time. imo Stoll is a very under rated #2/3 C and his skill level when it comes to face-offs and being a defensive is very good. this needs to be passed on to the kids.

Lokti really started looking good when they moved him back to C and off the wing. he looked to have settled down and wasn't trying to do to much and let the puck/play come to him. when he was on the wing he seemed to often to chase, over skate and get caught out of position. it's because of this i think he will stay at C.

Schenn is even more of a question mark than Lokti, since his time was shorter in LA and was only on the wing.

i think we will see TMu assigning Stoll, Schenn and Lokti up and down the roster as their development progresses.

i wouldn't be surprised to see either one of them or both at some point to play the #4C spot. yep you heard me right. why? it's easier for them to play and focus on one aspect while they adapt to the NHL. they can go out and focus entirely on playing defense and locking down the opponent. in time then they push over to incorporate the offensive side. for starters though it allows them to focus on one thing while they adapt, without overloading them. remember we are talking TMu and his D philosophy and high F3 style of play. again time will tell

i believe though DL will carry both brayden, andrei and oscar (depending on injury, AHL assignment) as the extra forwards next season. it gives them the flexibility to play the middle and cover the wings, while having them being tutored for the C positions.

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Old
03-01-2011, 01:39 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars H View Post
Yeah. A wily veteran, much beloved in his home country, would be attractive to a team in need of a mentor for its group of young talented forwards (and one recently acquired stay at home defenseman)...
I feel that Smyth is moveable because he is simply going to be in the last year of his contract, if it comes to that.

Also, in regards to Schenn making the team next season... I think he does. He will be more physically ready for the long haul than Lokti, and if his previous preseasons are anything to go by, he's going to bust his ass to make it. He was one of the last guys to get cut his first year, made it this year but had to be sent down because there was no room, and with Zus gone, he'll make it next season. Some will say that Lombardi would like for him to get some AHL time, but I'm sure Lombardi also wanted that for Simmonds and Clifford, but both guys clearly came to play, and were kept.

It will be pretty tight next year, but the year after we've got some big contracts coming off, as well, so it should be doable.

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03-01-2011, 02:06 PM
  #36
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Oh.. math? This will end good!

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Old
03-01-2011, 02:55 PM
  #37
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No bonus cushion for the 2011-2012 season.

Quote:
(A) For the 2008-09 League Year, all of the above-described
Performance Bonuses that could be earned by the Players
under SPCs with a Club shall be counted against such
Club's Upper Limit for that League Year (with no
opportunity for the Clubs to "carry over" any charges to
their Upper Limit for the following League Year), unless
the NHLPA declines to terminate this Agreement as of
September 15, 2009, consistent with Section 3.1(b) of this
Agreement, in which case accounting for the abovedescribed
Performance Bonuses in the 2008-09 League
Year shall be treated as set forth in paragraph (ii) above.

(B) For the 2010-11 League Year, the above-described
Performance Bonuses that could be earned by the Players
under SPCs with a Club shall be counted against such
Club's Upper Limit for that League Year (with no
opportunity for the Clubs to "carry over" any charges to
their Upper Limit for the following League Year), unless
the NHLPA extends this Agreement for one additional year
to September 15, 2012, consistent with Section 3.1(b) of
this Agreement, in which case accounting for the abovedescribed
Performance Bonuses in the 2010-2011 League
Year shall be treated as set forth in paragraph (ii) above.

(C) If the NHLPA exercises its option to extend this Agreement
to September 15, 2012, consistent with Section 3.1(b) of
this Agreement, then for the 2011-12 League Year, all of
the above-described Performance Bonuses that could be
earned by the Players under SPCs with a Club shall be
counted against such Club's Upper Limit for that League
Year (with no opportunity for the Clubs to "carry over" any
charges to their Upper Limit for the following League
Year).

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Old
03-01-2011, 03:04 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
Oh.. math? This will end good!
Sadly, no English though.

The bonus cushion disappearing will be an issue for sure. That said, we've seen other organizations work magic with the cap that were seemingly "doomed". I'm not worried given Lombardi's obsessiveness with... everything.

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Old
03-01-2011, 03:47 PM
  #39
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Simmonds will not be on this team if he even requests 2.5 million. If he gets 3 million imana puke.

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03-01-2011, 04:20 PM
  #40
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Williams is getting 3.6M on his new deal, Simmonds should get no more than half that at the max.

I would say anywhere from 1.3M-1.6M is about right.

Also guys like Lewis and Martinez won't get big raises, I'd be surprised if either gets more than 1M on new deals.

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03-01-2011, 04:41 PM
  #41
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These are the minimum qualifying offers for our current roster RFAs.

Richardson $945,000
Martinez $918,750
Simmonds $862,749
Lewis $843,413

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03-01-2011, 06:29 PM
  #42
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I remember hearing something about the NHLPA considering a "franchise player exemption" as part of the new CBA. Does anyone else remember this being discussed? If it is in the discussion phase then it isn;t like to make it into the coming CBA but it could be down the road.

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Old
03-01-2011, 06:29 PM
  #43
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Bottom line is that Richardson, Simmonds, Drewiske, Smyth and Stoll could all be dealt if the cap becomes a problem. I'm not worried.

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03-01-2011, 06:33 PM
  #44
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True.

That is the kitten in the minefield though isn't it? Which of our solid players do we let walk and whom do we replace them with? If a guy who is making less than $1m per year has to be moved to accommodate our top end guys then are we doing the right thing overall...

Can be argued both ways.

Just thinking out loud.

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Old
03-01-2011, 09:09 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
True.

That is the kitten in the minefield though isn't it? Which of our solid players do we let walk and whom do we replace them with? If a guy who is making less than $1m per year has to be moved to accommodate our top end guys then are we doing the right thing overall...

Can be argued both ways.

Just thinking out loud.
Hypothetically, some of these guys can be replaced internally.

Richardson could potentially be replaced by Elkins or Clune or Cliche.

Simmonds by King or Nolan.

Drewiske by Voinov.

Smyth by Moller or Loktionov.

Stoll by Schenn or Loktionov if he's playing center.

And that's not even considering who the Kings could get if they had to deal any of those guys.

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Old
03-01-2011, 09:26 PM
  #46
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I wouldn't be too worried about losing any of the core players. Next summer the Kings are going to have $20M come off the books from the expiring contracts of Smyth, Stoll, Penner, Mitchell, Parse, Westgarth.

Next season, they'll have $11M to re-sign Doughty, Martinez, Simmonds, Lewis, Richardson and Moller (among many other RFAs in Manchester who won't count against the cap). Handzus, Ponikarovsky, and Harrold will be free agents and can all be replaced internally.

Doughty's cap hit is already at $3.475M. Let's say his cap hit goes up by $2M. Simmonds will get a decent bump in his salary but I don't think he'll get anything over $2M. Same for Richardson who is about a $1M player with a steady spot. Lewis, Martinez and Moller will likely get small bumps in their contracts.

The Kings might be a bit tight up against the cap ceiling next season, but they will get tons of relief the following year, which is exactly what the Kings had in mind as 2012 is going to be an amazing year for free agent shopping.

The following forwards have expiring contracts in 2012:
Semin
Doan
Hemsky
Sharp
Umberger
T.Ruutu
Kunitz
Bertuzzi
Peverley

A lot of attractive RFAs will also be available in 2012:
Tavares
Duchene
E.Kane
Krejci
C.Stewart
Versteeg
Neal
Wolski
Raymond
Kulemin
Gagner
Perron
Filatov
Downie
Van Riemsdyk
Couture

While I expect a lot of names to be re-signed, we could see a busy year with players being moved or being given offer sheets. Then if you look forward to 2013, it is looking like it will be the biggest summer of free agency in NHL history, that is if the Penguins and Crosby aren't able to agree to an extension (which I cannot see happening). So some things to keep an eye on for the future if you are an exec in the NHL. Don't blow all of your money signing players this summer.

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Old
03-01-2011, 09:59 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post

The following forwards have expiring contracts in 2012:
Semin
Doan
Hemsky
Sharp
Umberger
T.Ruutu
Kunitz
Bertuzzi
Peverley
this list is exciting to you????

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Old
03-01-2011, 10:03 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by KingPuckChoo View Post
this list is exciting to you????
The first five in that group and the RFAs listed have a lot of talented top six forwards that the Kings could easily use. I think a few of those RFAs will be shopped, dealt or given offer sheets, so there is reason why someone should look forward to next year's crop of free agents. Semin and Sharp are going to be the top targets. Will be interesting to see how the Hawks will manage to keep Sharp around as they hardly have any cap space.

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Old
03-01-2011, 10:04 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
The following forwards have expiring contracts in 2012:
Semin
Doan
Hemsky
Sharp
Umberger
T.Ruutu
Kunitz
Bertuzzi
Peverley
Those would be the guys I'd target, namely Sharp. Doan's a Yote for life though.

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Old
03-01-2011, 10:11 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Solid post but as others have said, a little bit of a reach when it comes to the salary of a guy like Simmonds.

The interesting thing about the Kings is they have some great value contracts in Brown, Johnson and Williams and some absolutely awful ones in Smyth, Poni and Handzus who the Kings are committing $13.7 million in cap space to this season. Just be thankful that two of these deals are up after this season.

As you said, we'll see what happens with Doughty and it's the biggest issue this summer. He could take a hometown discount like JJ did or he could demand top dollar like Kopitar did. It's easy to sit here and say he should be a "team guy" and take a discount but it's his life and possibly the biggest contract he'll ever sign so we shouldn't think less of him if he demands top dollar. And if someone does come with a offer-sheet the Kings will match anything, even if someone offered him 7 years, 49 million for example the Kings would match and then trade someone like Stoll for a pick to free up the money.

When Lombardi says he will have some "flexibility" it's another one of his cliches when he means replacing Handzus and Poni, not making a play for anyone of significance. The Kings should be very quiet this summer, the major hole on the Kings right now is 2nd line center and they are going to give Schenn every chance to fill it. That will slot Stoll down to a 3rd line role to replace Handzus (who probably walks). The other hole on the team is still a first line LW, while Penner is a decent stop gap his long term role on the Kings, if he has one is to replace on the 2nd line after 2012. Once that albatross of a contract is off the books expect to see the Kings make a major play for an elite player either by trade or FA.

So I wouldn't worry to much about being up against the cap next season, the worst thing about next season is some bad contracts will still be around and we won't be able to add. But look out for 2012-13 when all those bad contracts are history and the Kings can add some key pieces.
Holy crap I think we agree on something.....

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