Yet he never has at any level. 80 points is an elite player. Elite players don't need all those circumstances to be elite players.
I don't care what he has or hasn't done at any level. I care about what I see when i look at his game NOW.
80 points is not necessarily an elite player. Hell, the "Great White Spark" scored 73 points just 2 years ago playing with one elite linemate. Cheechoo scored 93 in 05-06 being fed by one of the best centers in the game. I NEVER said Dubinsky was elite.
Putting an arbitrary point value on "elite" players is laughable. You know an elite player when you see them, regardless of how many points they put up in a given year. I laid out my case as to why I think Dubinsky is capable of putting up 80 under certain circumstances. What he's done at other levels really doesn't matter to me. Power forwards generally are late bloomers anyway, so I don't see how it's even relevant.
as Motley Crue said: It's the Same 'Ole Situation....
Every year it's the same story... everybody knows it. You'll hear every excuse in the book. You'll hear how young we are and that we're rebuilding, you'll hear it all. The truth is our players aren't that good, and haven't been in 12 years with the exception a Jagr-fueled few years.
Nothing new, here....nothing new at all. Just a ton of average players and one overpaid, underachieving softee on the IR.
Blunt but got to agree. This team has tons of heart, but limited talent.
Sad when percentages are telling you that the best you can realistically look for with this team is a first round boot in 6 six games. We can hope all we want. Point out what the Habs did last year. I don't like those chances..
McCabe is the best player that we have had on the point on the PP since Brian Leetch. I like this addition. Wish we made this trade in January.
I wonder how many goals the Rangers have scored in the first period at MSG since the new year?
Dubi needs to contribute more. Period. Wolski needs to play better.
Again, watching closely who fades here down the stretch, and who is a player with the pressure on.
What you describe is one thing. That doesn't mean he's shown the potential to score 80 points — again, something he's never done on at any level.
He has shown the talent and the consistency to, IMO (in a full healthy year) put up ~60 points. And that is just by generating chances himself. He has never gotten to play long term with a real dominating offensive force. He has barely played Gabbie this year and Gabbie has been pretty awful all year. I do not see 80 points out of the question. I would not say its a lock either. He needs to: 1) stay healthy 2) bury his chances 3) get a chance to play with another good offensive player. Whether that be a guy like Richards or a Stepan/Anisimov who takes his game to another level.
That "at any level" comment doesn't really do it for me. He scored 78 points in the W in his draft year and he was a completely different player then, especially physically. He played only one year in the A as opposed to Anisimov's two. He scored more goals and the same amount of points as Anismov did his rookie year (in less games) and then Anisimov scored 80 points as a sophomore. And he hasn't come close to his prime in the NHL. Its like saying Jordan Staal wouldn't ever score 29 goals in the NHL because he never did it at any level. Or Jeff Carter wouldn't have scored 80+ points in the NHL because he never did it at any level.
I don't care what he has or hasn't done at any level. I care about what I see when i look at his game NOW.
80 points is not necessarily an elite player. Hell, the "Great White Spark" scored 73 points just 2 years ago playing with one elite linemate. Cheechoo scored 93 in 05-06 being fed by one of the best centers in the game. I NEVER said Dubinsky was elite.
Putting an arbitrary point value on "elite" players is laughable. You know an elite player when you see them, regardless of how many points they put up in a given year. I laid out my case as to why I think Dubinsky is capable of putting up 80 under certain circumstances. What he's done at other levels really doesn't matter to me. Power forwards generally are late bloomers anyway, so I don't see how it's even relevant.
I don't see Brandon Dubinsky as an "elite" power forward. I don't care who he plays with.
I think what you see is what you get. A 50-60 point player with nice grit, and the ability to play the wing or pivot.
He sure looked like a man possessed in the shifts following the Sekera non-call hold. He may just end up being one of those hot and cold players, but the guy has talent. If he could just be even a little more consistent.
The play when Sekera chopped him down where Dubi changed speeds shows how much he's still got and how much he's still trying. It's just not happening right now. It also shows how much players are still trying things on their own. Dubi drove to the night by himself. Yeah I'd be tired too if I was driving to the net up against defenders playing 5 on 1 for during the dog days of the season. This team's offense has got to start playing cohesively. That's a player and leadership thing, there's no one to take charge in the locker room and on the ice. They're all too much of equals.
I think it's hard for our fans to assess things like this because it's been decades since we've seen true young talent produce here.
I love Dubinsky and while he hasn't put the puck in the net, there's no one on this team who has.
He still forechecks, controls the puck, and makes plays better then everyone on this entire team.
Every night he's still one of the most noticeable players out there.
Dubinsky is not a problem, and in my opinion does not warrant any criticism.
The problem is we have no Claude Giroux's, Martin St. Louis', etc. that have that ability to make a guy who is as valuable as Dubinsky really show their worth.
We have no finishers. And when the only one you do have has a career disaster of a year and is injured, it doesn't bode well for you.
In the first half of the season he looked like he had taken the next step. He was taking over games and imposing his will on opponents.
Now he looks average. The whole look of his game is different.
Could be injury related but who knows. In any event he has step it up now. He wants to be thought of as a great player from everything I've heard or read. Great players lead their teams and contribute on the score sheet hurt or not.
Dubi is Dubi. He does not have good instincts with the puck in the O-zone. He'll surprise you every once in a while but generally he is not very creative. He can transport the puck, gain the zone, start the cycle but like Boyle doesn't see the ice very well and is limited offensively. He has a better shot than Boyle. He's a 2nd/3rd line LW who if used properly will be very valuable. However, he is not a 1st line winger, does not project to be one. We need to develop a 1st line LW (Kreider maybe) so that he can slot in properly and our expectations of him could get in line with his talents. You can say that for a lot of guys. Because we do not have a first line, everyone is playing a level above their talent and disappointing because of it. The only one who is disappointing because of his actual play and not perceived value is Gabby. And now he's hurt again. Prospal needs to retire yesterday to give this team and this coach an opportunity to move on. He's hurting us. No doubt.
I thought last night was Dubi's best game in awhile. Good passing and puck possession from him, and he was involved and making things happen. He looks like he's on the verge of breaking out.
We gave the Ducks two of their best players because we are idiots.
We gave the Devils the 2nd best forward (Shanahan being 1st) they have ever drafted...because we are idiots.
I can't stress enough the importance of Chris Kreider's success in the NHL. We NEED this one to work out. Cuz, if it doesn't.. wow... bad times ahead, my friends...bad times.
I realize it's off topic.. but I'm "mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it, anymore"
The bottom line is we get on this guy because weve seen that he can be our best forward and our man if he is able to apply his strenghts i.e protect puck, skate, forecheck etc, great passes. Like many posters have stated we do lack elite talent but most teams do, thats what makes fringe guys like Dubi even more important. I dont think he is a 1st liner in a seasons length, but he can be an very integral 2nd line player on any team and jump in and out of the 1st line. Obviously on our team we need him to play like a 1st liner and that becomes the issue. I still think He, Avs and Gaborik are the best line we could go with if Gaborik comes back. Id through Prust with Cally and Anisimov. Stepans line the same, and than bring up Mitchell(give the guy a try).
Dubi is Dubi. He does not have good instincts with the puck in the O-zone. He'll surprise you every once in a while but generally he is not very creative. He can transport the puck, gain the zone, start the cycle but like Boyle doesn't see the ice very well and is limited offensively. He has a better shot than Boyle. He's a 2nd/3rd line LW who if used properly will be very valuable. However, he is not a 1st line winger, does not project to be one. We need to develop a 1st line LW (Kreider maybe) so that he can slot in properly and our expectations of him could get in line with his talents. You can say that for a lot of guys. Because we do not have a first line, everyone is playing a level above their talent and disappointing because of it. The only one who is disappointing because of his actual play and not perceived value is Gabby. And now he's hurt again. Prospal needs to retire yesterday to give this team and this coach an opportunity to move on. He's hurting us. No doubt.
WOW! Lets rewind a year ago when i started a Dont bring back Prospal thread for a bunch of reasons. What happened i got blasted for it because he had some points last season, and people argued he was our second best forward and hes one of the few with skill. I may be wrong about Zucc who isnt doing bad but hey i saw this coming with Prospal. Was a big mistake two bring him back and yes he is hurting us because hes just not good enough.
Dubinsky's a ****ing trooper. The guy played for a while with a stress fracture in his leg, finally gets some rest (all of what? five games?) and now is back still playing with that fracture and logging top minutes every night. He's responsible in all situations, taking key draws. What does this guy have to do to get even a solid fraction of the respect people heap on Callahan even when he just takes a dump?
I thought last night was Dubi's best game in awhile. Good passing and puck possession from him, and he was involved and making things happen. He looks like he's on the verge of breaking out.
I agree, weird timing of this thread since Dubinsky was one of the best players on the ice for us last night.
Dubinsky's a ****ing trooper. The guy played for a while with a stress fracture in his leg, finally gets some rest (all of what? five games?) and now is back still playing with that fracture and logging top minutes every night. He's responsible in all situations, taking key draws. What does this guy have to do to get even a solid fraction of the respect people heap on Callahan even when he just takes a dump?
Yes,Yes,Yes, I love both Cally and Dubi but there some folks who bring the hammer hard against Dubi for not doing enough. Give the guy a break, hes playing through a broken leg, and has 1 point less than last season with 17 games left. hes still improving, at least wait to his production levels off, and not for nothing if callahan had better hands Dubi have at least 10 more points but as many people have mentioned they are a 2nd line playing against the best other teams have to offer.
Yes,Yes,Yes, I love both Cally and Dubi but there some folks who bring the hammer hard against Dubi for not doing enough. Give the guy a break, hes playing through a broken leg, and has 1 point less than last season with 17 games left. hes still improving, at least wait to his production levels off, and not for nothing if callahan had better hands Dubi have at least 10 more points but as many people have mentioned they are a 2nd line playing against the best other teams have to offer.
Now Dubi has a broken leg? Soon we're going to hear he's playing with just one leg..
WOW! Lets rewind a year ago when i started a Dont bring back Prospal thread for a bunch of reasons. What happened i got blasted for it because he had some points last season, and people argued he was our second best forward and hes one of the few with skill. I may be wrong about Zucc who isnt doing bad but hey i saw this coming with Prospal. Was a big mistake two bring him back and yes he is hurting us because hes just not good enough.
Thank you I was praying all early season that this over rated Torts kinda guy would retire when I watched MSG play video of him re habbing . I dont care if he plays for beer money next year get him away from this team unless it's as a Pp coach or something he's finished
Guys slow down a tad with the talk about the seriousness of Dubis injury. It's a hairline fracture, which might not be a root canal but it's not far from it either. Really. It hurts, but you can still keep moving in the pool.
Dubi is a younger player who plays in a slightly smaller role now. The predictions and talk about him being a true topline player who could match up against the top of the east was just hot air a few month ago.
He is a very valuable trooper who have put his game together, but he will have his ups and downs.
[I started to write this in the prospects thread in response to a post there, but I didn't want to take it too far OT, so I've moved it here instead.]
I really don't understand the sudden subtle movement to trade Wolski. It's like every player we get whose first priority is to make skilled offensive plays with the puck rather than to mash the other team's players into the boards is instantly the guy pushed out in all proposed trades and salary cap projections.
Since he was acquired, Wolski has had some off nights. He's also had some nights where he was the Rangers' most dangerous player on the ice. More importantly, the Wolski-Stepan-MZA line has consistently made things happen.
Is he a sure-fire hall of famer? Of course not. Is it a red flag that two other teams have traded him already at his young age? Sure. Would I move him in the right deal? In a heartbeat. But he's a talented forward who's actually displaying some consistency on a team that lacks both talent and consistency.
In the 27 games since Wolski was acquired, he has accumulated 5-11-16 and been a +12. During that stretch he hasn't had a scoreless streak of longer than 2 games and has had a grand total of only 2 games as a minus. Meanwhile Dubinsky, whom everyone lauds as an integral part of the core, has played 22 games over that same time period, contributing a whopping 4-5-9 and been a singularly unimpressive -5... despite getting about 5 more minutes of TOI every night. Worse, he's had a scoreless streak of 8 games and been a minus 8 different times.
I bring up Dubinsky a lot because I feel he gets a ridiculous amount of slack from most of the posters on this forum. He is inconsistent. He does not have elite offensive skills. He is a mediocre puck distributor. But we drafted him, he is physical in the corners, drops the gloves occasionally and talks smack about Crosby - so he's basically untradeable. Meanwhile, many posters would move Wolski for pick or two just to free up space so a prospect can get a shot.
Now, let's be clear - I believe that Dubinsky is a very good player. The other things he does that don't show up on the scoreboard absolutely do have value. In the posts I have made over the last year or so where I have suggested he could be moved in the right deal, I have always made it clear that it would have to be for a legit first line forward. And I recognize that he has the opportunity to get more consistent and will likely increase his offensive output as he matures.
Everyone agree with me so far? Okay, now consider that Wolski is all of 2 months older than Dubi. There is a serious a double standard here and it just doesn't make sense to me. At the end of the day, the object of the game is to put the puck in the net more times than the opposition does - and by every measurable category Wolski has been significantly better at helping the team to do that than Dubinsky has since the trade. Yet, Dubinsky isn't moveable at any cost while Wolski is fast on his way to becoming the next Eric Christensen in most people's minds. I just don't get it.
Many Rangers fans love Dubi, because they see him banging opposing players on the ice and often controlling the puck in the offensive zone for long stretches. Fans don't always care about looking past anything more than that... which is fine. He is a good 2nd line player. My issue with Dubi is that he is not a smart player and that is what is keeping him from being more. He often makes very poor decisions on the ice with the puck (passing & shooting). While being able to control the puck is a plus, those bad decisions often negate scoring chances he should be creating with that control and often lead to opposing rushes the other way. If I had a penny for every time the guy shot from an awful angle to trap 4 players in the zone or to kill a PP opportunity... I would be rich. You can see his issues with playing smart also expand to taking dumb penalties at really bad times... and you can see that it drives Torts nuts. Until he can somehow manage to play smarter (which is tough to teach someone), he will never be the 1st line player that most Ranger fans want him to be. It is a good sign, though, that his inconsistency issues are far less of a problem this year and he doesn't necessarily disappear for long stretches when he is not scoring. He is at least noticeable most of the time.
[I started to write this in the prospects thread in response to a post there, but I didn't want to take it too far OT, so I've moved it here instead.]
I really don't understand the sudden subtle movement to trade Wolski. It's like every player we get whose first priority is to make skilled offensive plays with the puck rather than to mash the other team's players into the boards is instantly the guy pushed out in all proposed trades and salary cap projections.
Since he was acquired, Wolski has had some off nights. He's also had some nights where he was the Rangers' most dangerous player on the ice. More importantly, the Wolski-Stepan-MZA line has consistently made things happen.
Is he a sure-fire hall of famer? Of course not. Is it a red flag that two other teams have traded him already at his young age? Sure. Would I move him in the right deal? In a heartbeat. But he's a talented forward who's actually displaying some consistency on a team that lacks both talent and consistency.
In the 27 games since Wolski was acquired, he has accumulated 5-11-16 and been a +12. During that stretch he hasn't had a scoreless streak of longer than 2 games and has had a grand total of only 2 games as a minus. Meanwhile Dubinsky, whom everyone lauds as an integral part of the core, has played 22 games over that same time period, contributing a whopping 4-5-9 and been a singularly unimpressive -5... despite getting about 5 more minutes of TOI every night. Worse, he's had a scoreless streak of 8 games and been a minus 8 different times.
I bring up Dubinsky a lot because I feel he gets a ridiculous amount of slack from most of the posters on this forum. He is inconsistent. He does not have elite offensive skills. He is a mediocre puck distributor. But we drafted him, he is physical in the corners, drops the gloves occasionally and talks smack about Crosby - so he's basically untradeable. Meanwhile, many posters would move Wolski for pick or two just to free up space so a prospect can get a shot.
Now, let's be clear - I believe that Dubinsky is a very good player. The other things he does that don't show up on the scoreboard absolutely do have value. In the posts I have made over the last year or so where I have suggested he could be moved in the right deal, I have always made it clear that it would have to be for a legit first line forward. And I recognize that he has the opportunity to get more consistent and will likely increase his offensive output as he matures.
Everyone agree with me so far? Okay, now consider that Wolski is all of 2 months older than Dubi. There is a serious a double standard here and it just doesn't make sense to me. At the end of the day, the object of the game is to put the puck in the net more times than the opposition does - and by every measurable category Wolski has been significantly better at helping the team to do that than Dubinsky has since the trade. Yet, Dubinsky isn't moveable at any cost while Wolski is fast on his way to becoming the next Eric Christensen in most people's minds. I just don't get it.
I'm not in the "trade wolski camp", but I think your premise that he's better than dubinsky is terribly wrong. The reason people don't agree with you is because you're making stuff up. Dubinsky has been a better offensive player than Wolski in addition to being better at every other facet of the game.
Wolski's numbers since he's been on the team: 27 games, 5 goals, 11 assists. Extrapolated over 82 that equals, 15 goals and 33 assists for 48 pts. Dubinsky in 65 games has 20 goals and 25 assists. Extrapolated over 82 that equals 25 goals and 32 assists for 57 pts.
So is one more assist better worth 10 goals? If not than Dubi is has been the far better offensive player for us.
