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Management's Vision - Building Around Young Core Players

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Old
03-02-2011, 03:12 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Eller is an excellent prospect that is developing slowly but surely. But I really think his ceiling is second line center. He may surprise in the long long term but I think it's highly unlikely.

If he had truely first line potential he would of come out of the gates with alot more results than he has so far this year. He was given the opportunity but he didn't rise to the occassion.

Wether it's a first line forward or a first defensive pairing true top talent rises to the occassion. Take for example Subban & Price. At every level & adversity they have risen to the occasion and competed with a bang. That's a true top prospect and that's the kind of top young core center we need to have in our system.

We do not have that at center right now.

Like I said Eller is a good prospect that will need lots of time to develop and maybe he will surprise us to be first line player but don't thinks so. Top second line center is what I personally think he can achieve.
Kind of hard to not agree with this assessment. He's a work in progress, and most guys who are works in progress don't become first line centers. Mike Richards is an example of a guy that came along slow, and worked his way up to the top, but even he had more of an impact in his first year than Eller. But listen, I'm actually ok with Eller being as good as Plekanec and having two great, two-way 2nd line centers. It's not essential to have an obvious 1st line center on your team, especially if you have Carey price in nets. In order for us to win the cup, we need 2 scoring lines that can get the job done, not necessarily dominate. What we have, year in and year out, is glaring weaknesses on our team. Our defense is too slow and old. That to me is the first glaring weakness. Than it's our size up front. However, this would not be that big of problem if our D was more mobile and overall just quicker and smarter with the puck. I actually believe that it is not our size upfront that hinders us, because i find that despite their size most of our forwards play a physical game when they want to. The reason why we lose to Philly each year in the playoffs is pretty simple: they make our D look like a bunch of children. They outskate and outmuscle our D, and hinder us from getting into counter attack type game because they put heavy pressure on our D corps. Basically all to say that the secret to our success is obtaining (or simply hoping the ones we have stay healthy) good young D that can be reliable puck movers, while at the same time keep haevy forwards out of the crease area. Subban is a great start; Tinordi will help a lot. We're in limbo right now though. Everything revolves around what PG will do next year with Markov, Gorges, Hammer, Gill, Wiz, and Emelin even. So many question marks going into next year with the most important part of our team, the D.

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03-02-2011, 03:13 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
say what you want about injuries, but them happening isnt an excuse, it's a FACT. also teams being at the top are injury free teams for the most part and that's also another FACT.
Could the FACT that much of our roster is physically weak explain why we're perennially one of the more injury riddled teams?

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and so was Tavares not long ago...
Yes, and?

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03-02-2011, 03:19 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
Could the FACT that much of our roster is physically weak explain why we're perennially one of the more injury riddled teams?



Yes, and?
maybe, so what ? dont make at excuse even if true...

just take ONE player, Markov... don't you think we could have one or two more wins in 64 games with him in the line up ? (one or two more and we're closing in on Boston for 1st in the div.)...



I wasnt finished... let me continue : So was Steve Bernier at some point...

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Old
03-02-2011, 03:19 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
2011-2012-2013
I don't see a top 4 team moving down to our range...20-30 even if we add a 2012 1st and a 2013 1st. Those teams want a quick rebuild, a player they can plug into the lineup within 18 months and who will be a productive NHLer within 3 years. In other words Quality over quantity.

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03-02-2011, 03:22 PM
  #55
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So was Jeff Skinner at this point last year.
Skinner is more polished than Couturier but with less upside.

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03-02-2011, 03:31 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
Could the FACT that much of our roster is physically weak explain why we're perennially one of the more injury riddled teams?



Yes, and?
Our injuries haven't exactly been to physically weak players. Markov has had 3 major injuries and he is around 210lbs. Cammy has been hurt the last 2 years, he isn't big but he is very strong. Look around the NHL injuries don't doscriminate against big or small players...

Malkin is huge and he blew out his ACL and MCL...Getzlav is 6'4" and he recently missed a month. Boogard is like 6'9" and he's been out all year. Richards is average sized. Crosby Roy and Savard are smaller. Souray is like 240lbs and he's missed a lot of time with injuries. Bitz is 6'4" and he's missed the whole year. Koivu is out right now and he is 6'2". Streit is average size and he's been out all year, Okposo missed half the year and he's 6'1" 210lbs. Frolov is 6'2" and he is out for the year. Alfredsson is 5'11" out indefinitely. Orpik is out and he is big. Laperriere is pretty big and he is out for the year. Staal missed half the year, he is 6'4". Oshie is average sized he missed 6 weeeks. Edler is pretty big, so is Bieksa both are out indefinitely.

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03-02-2011, 03:49 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
We need to target a young star core center player through the draft or trades.
We did, his name is Lars Eller. We have a all-star D, his name is PK Subban. We have a all-star goalie, his name is Carey Price.

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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Our current prospects are good but not great.
... Really?? So you don't like PK, Price, Pacioretty or Subban??

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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Once we identify our core young star players we can than build around them with depth and vet leadership.
Where have you been?? Management has found them a long time ago.

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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Core players would be our untouchables in terms of trades. Everybody else are support players and tradeable. Right now we need a core young center and that should be the focus.
Yeah, duh. Why only a center?? The team has other positions as well.

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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Right now Gauthier doesn't not have young core player vision and that is why he only does patch work trading.
Gauthier has the vision and that's why he is doing patchwork trading at the moment. He trusts the kids and I believe JM does too! /thread

... can't read anymore.. Why did I bother..

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03-02-2011, 03:52 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
I have to agree with this.

We have Price, so there is the top goalie.
We have Subban and if Markov can remain healthy, Habs have 2 top D.
Plekanec is as good as the Habs have it. Habs still need another top centre.
Pacioretty, although not there yet, can become a great power forward.
I'm convinced Desharnais can become that utility player. Keep him in the same role, play him as much as JM has been, and he'll get there in a year or two, which is about the same time Pacioretty could take to become a great power forward.

That way, you have;

-- / Plekanec / --
--/ top Centre/ Pacioretty
-- / Desharnais / --
-- / -- / --

Markov / Subban
-- / --
-- / --

Price
--
True about Desharnais, didn't think about him for some reason. This playoffs (assuming we make it) will be a good indicator for Gauthier as to how Desharnais handles himself in big game situations. If he plays well and exceeds expectations, it could mean that prospect or player X could become superfluous and potential trade bait. The same probably goes for Eller, White, Pouliot and AK. The playoffs are where you find out (or should be anyway) what you really need on your team, and what players you definitely can't get rid of.

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03-02-2011, 03:53 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Eller is an excellent prospect that is developing slowly but surely. But I really think his ceiling is second line center. He may surprise in the long long term but I think it's highly unlikely.

If he had truely first line potential he would of come out of the gates with alot more results than he has so far this year. He was given the opportunity but he didn't rise to the occassion.

Wether it's a first line forward or a first defensive pairing true top talent rises to the occassion. Take for example Subban & Price. At every level & adversity they have risen to the occasion and competed with a bang. That's a true top prospect and that's the kind of top young core center we need to have in our system.

We do not have that at center right now.

Like I said Eller is a good prospect that will need lots of time to develop and maybe he will surprise us to be first line player but don't thinks so. Top second line center is what I personally think he can achieve.
So, what do you think of Tyler Seguin?

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03-02-2011, 04:06 PM
  #60
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Pacioretty had like 4 breakaways against a very mobile Thrasher team. Who knows what his upside is but man can he skate.

I liked the cycle they had going where they kept the puck deep in the Thrashers end only to have Gomer flutter it up.

If Eller breaks out next year I say put Pacioretty with him, They could really surprise a lot of people.

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Old
03-02-2011, 04:25 PM
  #61
The Goalie Mask
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Right Price View Post
We did, his name is Lars Eller. We have a all-star D, his name is PK Subban. We have a all-star goalie, his name is Carey Price.



... Really?? So you don't like PK, Price, Pacioretty or Subban??



Where have you been?? Management has found them a long time ago.



Yeah, duh. Why only a center?? The team has other positions as well.



Gauthier has the vision and that's why he is doing patchwork trading at the moment. He trusts the kids and I believe JM does too! /thread

... can't read anymore.. Why did I bother..
You might want to go back & read the various post prior.....you comments have taken things out of contexts

To your points- Subban, Price Pac are part of our young core keepers but there`s other holes to fill....Eller`s good but in my opinion not a first line center candidate

If Markov doesn`t come back 100% than we need a top pairing defense to compliment Subban

The discussion is about the following possible core foundation of a top tier team

Cores(untouchables)

1 goalie
2 def
2 top centers
1 Top power forward
1 Utility player

Everybody else around this core are support and depth players to round out the team.

Questions is who is currently a core young player and what is missing and how can we get it?

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03-02-2011, 04:56 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
You might want to go back & read the various post prior.....you comments have taken things out of contexts

To your points- Subban, Price Pac are part of our young core keepers but there`s other holes to fill....Eller`s good but in my opinion not a first line center candidate

If Markov doesn`t come back 100% than we need a top pairing defense to compliment Subban

The discussion is about the following possible core foundation of a top tier team

Cores(untouchables)

1 goalie
2 def
2 top centers
1 Top power forward
1 Utility player

Everybody else around this core are support and depth players to round out the team.

Questions is who is currently a core young player and what is missing and how can we get it?
Like others said, I think we already have most of those core that you speak of:

Goalie: Price
D: Subban and Markov (if he is healthy. If he is not healthy then we need a D)
Centre: Plekanec, one more.
PF: Pacioretty
Utility: Leblanc

You do need to surround these players with a strong secondary core though. People constantly complain about the fact core players like Stewart and Johnson were traded but that was for each other. St. Louis could afford to do it because they identified Pietrangelo as their #1 D going forward and wanted Stewart. The only player equatable to that on our team is Subban and we can't afford to do that. Let's not forget that the Blues got Johnson and Pietrangelo because they sucked and got top picks. Habs snagging Subban in the 2nd round was a huge steal for us.

Like a lot us have been saying for awhile, the Habs really need a centre to help out Pleks. To say PG isn't trying to stock core players is ridiculous. There were all kinds of rumours that the Habs were trying to get Stastny out of Colorado, and that we were looking at Weiss in Florida. There were also rumours that PG offered Atlanta two 1sts and Kristo for Bogosian and they turned him down. That would have given us, Markov, Subban and a big shut down D in Bogosian on our blueline.

I think PG knows what we need but trading Patches for Bogosian is a sideways move for us, which is probably what we'd have to do. We gain a core player in Bogosian but lose one in Patches.

We'll see what PG can pull off at the draft. I think he's willing to give up 1st rders and good prospects for the right player and probably anyone on the team not named Pleks, Patches, Subban or Price, but it has to be for a player who is actually going to help the team improve.

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Old
03-02-2011, 05:06 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
You might want to go back & read the various post prior.....you comments have taken things out of contexts

To your points- Subban, Price Pac are part of our young core keepers but there`s other holes to fill....Eller`s good but in my opinion not a first line center candidate

If Markov doesn`t come back 100% than we need a top pairing defense to compliment Subban

The discussion is about the following possible core foundation of a top tier team

Cores(untouchables)

1 goalie
2 def
2 top centers
1 Top power forward
1 Utility player

Everybody else around this core are support and depth players to round out the team.

Questions is who is currently a core young player and what is missing and how can we get it?
I liked one of your points though, and that was that the core players should be roughly the same age. That's why I would really push to try to acquire Stastny from Colorado, I'd offer our current 1st ++ for him since he perfectly suits the Price-Subban-Patches age range, while a mid first rounder this year doesn't.

With Plekanec, Cammalleri, Stastny, Gionta, Markov, Subban, Pacioretty, Eller and Price this team is a contender for many years to come.

Talking about support players is a bit vague IMO since they are mostly determined by how well you draft and the UFA market etc. Something that we can't plan 2-3 years ahead.

Bottom line, PG is doing a fantastic job IMO and I really believe we'll win a cup with him. I want him to grab Stastny though.

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03-02-2011, 05:19 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnapVirus View Post
This year or next year, they will probably pick a goalie in the first/2nd round. Because after Price and Ramo (which we don't know what'll happen with him), the goalie pool is pretty bad.
You don't draft goalie depth in the 1rst or 2nd round(That second that we don't have) Usually teams draft goalie depth in the 5th-6th round. Fact of the matter is there is once a year a star goalie that a team build their franchise around and after that there is still good goalie talent but it is drafted in the 5h/6th round. See Ryan Miller.

Also the thing i like about PG is that he addresses the needs that we have now but he also does a good job of getting prospects and has the future in mind. Unlike Philly or Boston.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
True about Desharnais, didn't think about him for some reason. This playoffs (assuming we make it) will be a good indicator for Gauthier as to how Desharnais handles himself in big game situations. If he plays well and exceeds expectations, it could mean that prospect or player X could become superfluous and potential trade bait. The same probably goes for Eller, White, Pouliot and AK. The playoffs are where you find out (or should be anyway) what you really need on your team, and what players you definitely can't get rid of.
I disagree . Look at Lappy last year . And all years . He is know for having good playoff's but he is expendable. And Turtleneck has been bad in playoff's in previous year and he is a GREAT 1rst line center regardless.


Last edited by PyrettaBlaze: 03-04-2011 at 09:59 AM.
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Old
03-02-2011, 05:27 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by The Right Price View Post
I liked one of your points though, and that was that the core players should be roughly the same age. That's why I would really push to try to acquire Stastny from Colorado, I'd offer our current 1st ++ for him since he perfectly suits the Price-Subban-Patches age range, while a mid first rounder this year doesn't.

With Plekanec, Cammalleri, Stastny, Gionta, Markov, Subban, Pacioretty, Eller and Price this team is a contender for many years to come.

Talking about support players is a bit vague IMO since they are mostly determined by how well you draft and the UFA market etc. Something that we can't plan 2-3 years ahead.

Bottom line, PG is doing a fantastic job IMO and I really believe we'll win a cup with him. I want him to grab Stastny though.
Paul Stastny would be an excellent top center candidate. He's a ppg producer and the right age....their was rumour at the trade deadline that he was available... management should deffinately target him...a first might not be enough but it would worth paying more for him...

Support players are alot easier to get than core players...the price tag is alot less and there's more options to choose from..that's why it's wiser to shore up your cores first than you can getting complimenting players.

Gauthier is a good GM and as done fairly good job. He's more aggresive than Gainey but I find he tends to play it safe when it comes to trades. He does more patch work than good hockey trades for the long term. Much like Gainey his negotiation skills are average. Take Lapierre for example, he got alot less than Anaheim got. The Mara trade he paid to much(5th rounder). Sopel trade(he should of got a bigger player than Dawes...especially since small players isn't what we need)

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03-02-2011, 05:28 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Richiebottles View Post
I disagree . Look at Lappy last year . And all years . He is know for having good playoff's but he is expendable. And Turtleneck has been bad in playoff's in previous year and he is a GREAT 1rst line center regardless.
well that's why i wrote "should be anyway", specifically because of Lapierre and Plekanec. They are the exceptions to the rule. Thanks for nitpicking, lol.

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03-02-2011, 05:31 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Paul Stastny would be an excellent top center candidate. He's a ppg producer and the right age....their was rumour at the trade deadline that he was available... management should deffinately target him...a first might not be enough but it would worth paying more for him...

Support players are alot easier to get than core players...the price tag is alot less and there's more options to choose from..that's why it's wiser to shore up your cores first than you can getting complimenting players.

Gauthier is a good GM and as done fairly good job. He's more aggresive than Gainey but I find he tends to play it safe when it comes to trades. He does more patch work than good hockey trades for the long term. Much like Gainey his negotiation skills are average. Take Lapierre for example, he got alot less than Anaheim got. The Mara trade he paid to much(5th rounder). Sopel trade(he should of got a bigger player than Dawes...especially since small players isn't what we need)
He certainly didn't play it safe with the Eller trade. And Eller is the answer to the main question of core youth. Eller is exactly the kind of player this team needs to start developing. Big AND skilled. Not just skilled. You have to get through four playoff rounds, you need size.

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03-02-2011, 05:36 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
well that's why i wrote "should be anyway", specifically because of Lapierre and Plekanec. They are the exceptions to the rule. Thanks for nitpicking, lol.
I hate speed reading .

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03-02-2011, 05:38 PM
  #69
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I hate speed reading .
no worries, we're all guilty of it from time to time.

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03-02-2011, 05:39 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by tinyzombies View Post
He certainly didn't play it safe with the Eller trade. And Eller is the answer to the main question of core youth. Eller is exactly the kind of player this team needs to start developing. Big AND skilled. Not just skilled. You have to get through four playoff rounds, you need size.
Eller is a good prospect and that was a good start by Gauthier. However after what we have seen so far this year it will take Eller a long time to develop to his full potential. I really think that is ceiling is has a second line center which is not a bad thing.

If I had to choose between Stastny & Eller I would take Stastny.

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03-02-2011, 06:20 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by SnapVirus View Post
This year or next year, they will probably pick a goalie in the first/2nd round. Because after Price and Ramo (which we don't know what'll happen with him), the goalie pool is pretty bad.
We also drafted Jason Missiaen who is playing in the Q right now.

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03-02-2011, 06:28 PM
  #72
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We also drafted Jason Missiaen who is playing in the Q right now.
He's no longer in our organization

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03-02-2011, 06:29 PM
  #73
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He's no longer in our organization
Since when ? And why ?

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03-02-2011, 06:34 PM
  #74
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Since when ? And why ?
I think the habs didn't sign him so he's now FA

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03-02-2011, 06:45 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
With Poulliot...All his success was always at center but they have never tried to play him at his natural position....and development has been very slow and his confidence has taken along time to develop.....

Another point with these 2 players....they should not being playing on third & fourth lines with nonskilled players...if they can't lock down a top 6 role they should be playing in Hamilton on top lines in their natural position so that we can speed up their development
I agree 50% with you. The Eller half. He is a real good prospect at C.

Pouliot is a better prospect for the wing than for the center position. He is not agile enough to play C, and his vision of the play is more of a winger's vision.

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