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Management's Vision - Building Around Young Core Players

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Old
03-02-2011, 05:53 PM
  #76
The Goalie Mask
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CammerScores View Post
Like others said, I think we already have most of those core that you speak of:

Goalie: Price
D: Subban and Markov (if he is healthy. If he is not healthy then we need a D)
Centre: Plekanec, one more.
PF: Pacioretty
Utility: Leblanc

You do need to surround these players with a strong secondary core though. People constantly complain about the fact core players like Stewart and Johnson were traded but that was for each other. St. Louis could afford to do it because they identified Pietrangelo as their #1 D going forward and wanted Stewart. The only player equatable to that on our team is Subban and we can't afford to do that. Let's not forget that the Blues got Johnson and Pietrangelo because they sucked and got top picks. Habs snagging Subban in the 2nd round was a huge steal for us.

Like a lot us have been saying for awhile, the Habs really need a centre to help out Pleks. To say PG isn't trying to stock core players is ridiculous. There were all kinds of rumours that the Habs were trying to get Stastny out of Colorado, and that we were looking at Weiss in Florida. There were also rumours that PG offered Atlanta two 1sts and Kristo for Bogosian and they turned him down. That would have given us, Markov, Subban and a big shut down D in Bogosian on our blueline.

I think PG knows what we need but trading Patches for Bogosian is a sideways move for us, which is probably what we'd have to do. We gain a core player in Bogosian but lose one in Patches.

We'll see what PG can pull off at the draft. I think he's willing to give up 1st rders and good prospects for the right player and probably anyone on the team not named Pleks, Patches, Subban or Price, but it has to be for a player who is actually going to help the team improve.
You make some good points. Trading Patches for Bogosian would be a side ways move. Trading any of our cores would be a sideways move. The trick is targeting teams that have what we need (including high draft picks) and striking a deal with them when they're most vunerable (injuries, players politics, contracts,players in minor slumps etc)But you have to be a GM that is quick, timely,opportunist, good negotiator and ready to pay the price with are touchables. Ohterwise you snooze you lose. Are GM is not a timely opportunist, not an excellent negotiator and doesn't want to pay the price. That's makes him an average GM.

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Old
03-02-2011, 06:08 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
I agree 50% with you. The Eller half. He is a real good prospect at C.

Pouliot is a better prospect for the wing than for the center position. He is not agile enough to play C, and his vision of the play is more of a winger's vision.
Pouliot has great size, hands, vision & shot. He's always used these attributes at center. It's only in Montreal that we tried to change his game. In Hamilton they used him at center and he had great success. We haven't tried him at center for any games to see what he can do. The unfortunate thing about him is that in the past his confidence was easily rattled. I think by trying to change is game and putting him m on the wing played to his weakness at the time and hurt his confidence. We also bounced him around different lines to much. He has finally adjusted and is starting to produce. But I still think playing players at the strength and natural position is better for quicker NHL development.

Look at Eller, they are finally playing him at center(his natural position) and with better wingers and he's starting to play better.

Why try to change players to such drastic degrees. If we want a winger draft or trade for winger.

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03-02-2011, 06:49 PM
  #78
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We need to follow Sam Pollock's style. Trade some current good stuff for a couple of top 3 picks, draft well and watch the kids shine. No tanking, no crap.

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Old
03-02-2011, 07:02 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
I would build around:

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gionta
Cammalleri - Leblanc - Kristo
xxxxx - Eller - Palushaj
Conboy - White - Schultz

Markov - xxxxx
Tinordi - Subban
xxxxx - xxxxx

Price
xxxxx
But... but...

Where's G-Love???

sniff


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Old
03-02-2011, 07:15 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
I would build around:

Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gionta
Cammalleri - Leblanc - Kristo
xxxxx - Eller - Palushaj
Conboy - White - Schultz

Markov - xxxxx
Tinordi - Subban
xxxxx - xxxxx

Price
xxxxx
You're definately missing Desharnais and Weber in there. Desharnaiswill become a special hometown player providing that he plays on the top 6, pp and on a line surrounded by big wingers. His vision on the ice is unmatched right now, nevermind in 3 or 4 years.

I would take out Kristo and Palushaj, they're not players we are depending on like the rest. Markov is 32...

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03-02-2011, 07:53 PM
  #81
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With the veteran core and young team we have, we won't have that much problems signing a top UFA within the next 3 years. That's why maybe it wouldn't have been the best idea to trade for immediate playoff help. Once we replace Gomez's money with a real first line center, we'll be set to contend. If Eller becomes that player, great, but he still has a long way to go. He needs to evolve, to always keep on getting better. Not all the players can do that. However, I think the Habs will be on the rise.

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03-02-2011, 07:55 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
maybe, so what ? dont make at excuse even if true...

just take ONE player, Markov... don't you think we could have one or two more wins in 64 games with him in the line up ? (one or two more and we're closing in on Boston for 1st in the div.)...



I wasnt finished... let me continue : So was Steve Bernier at some point...
I wasn't aware that Steve Bernier was ever in contention for a top-2 pick.

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Old
03-02-2011, 08:59 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
I wasn't aware that Steve Bernier was ever in contention for a top-2 pick.

But you were aware he was a prospect at some point right...

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03-02-2011, 09:00 PM
  #84
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After gloating over Komisarek and Higgins and overrating prospect that never made it, threads like this seems pointless.

Then agian, most posters registered in '07 onwards so they don't know.

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03-02-2011, 09:24 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Team_Spirit View Post
After gloating over Komisarek and Higgins and overrating prospect that never made it, threads like this seems pointless.

Then agian, most posters registered in '07 onwards so they don't know.
Both Komisarek and Higgins were on their way to become something special for a lot of seasons. Higgins was playing an amazing 2-way game and scoring in bunches while Komisarek was destroying everything that moved and defending his teammates before the Carbo era killed both of them, in fact they were both what we are lacking right now...

If our prospects like Tinordi and Leblanc can play like those 2 were at their peaks, I will be one happy man.

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03-02-2011, 09:37 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Habsolument90 View Post
We need to follow Sam Pollock's style. Trade some current good stuff for a couple of top 3 picks, draft well and watch the kids shine. No tanking, no crap.
Sam Pollock was an excellent GM...we should deffinately take some plays out of his play book...he had an eye for competitive hard working talent and some assertion to make the bold moves...which is what we need to get to the next level

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Old
03-02-2011, 10:44 PM
  #87
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I'm a fan of having a playmaker, a goal scorer, and a grinder on each of your top 3 lines

Cammy-Plekanec-Leblanc
Pacioretty-Eller-Gionta
Pouliot-Desharnais-White


^That's not half bad and those are just guys we already have minus Gomez. I am starting to believe that LLs future is that of a defensive minded grinder with skill on the wing of a scoring line, and I think he'd fit in great beside Pleks and Cammy...

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Old
03-02-2011, 10:49 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by hogtownhabsfan View Post
I'm a fan of having a playmaker, a goal scorer, and a grinder on each of your top 3 lines

Cammy-Plekanec-Leblanc
Pacioretty-Eller-Gionta
Pouliot-Desharnais-White


^That's not half bad and those are just guys we already have minus Gomez. I am starting to believe that LLs future is that of a defensive minded grinder with skill on the wing of a scoring line, and I think he'd fit in great beside Pleks and Cammy...
Switch Deharnais with Eller, vice versa, and I LOVE those lines, i also think that's where Leblanc will end up, maybe as soon as next year if he hits the gym hard this summer.

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03-02-2011, 11:05 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Star player usually do get drafted first overall but you will also finds stars from 2 to 10.

So our drafting strategy should be "best player avaible" rated by the general concensis of the scouts so that their trading value is higher when we are negotiating trades.

We need to be more aggressive at the drafting table and make trades to move up the draft to get our core players. Once we have our young core players than we can work on depth and supporting players. We are currently missing a core center player. So we need to lock that down.

I Agree with you that having young guys and a good group of vets will build a good contender. But hanging on to our current vets at the expense of not getting a top young center core will hurt us from being a top contender. We are not a top conterder right now. Our vets Gomez, Gionta will be 33-34 in 3 for 4 years.Will they be able to perform in 3 for 4 years?
Except for minor stars like Mike Bossy 16th and Bryan Trottier 19th and literally a couple every year like that looking at defence for sure and goalies.

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03-03-2011, 02:59 AM
  #90
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i love desharnais. if he doesn't become a second line center eventually, i still see him as a third or at worst fourth line center. The few times i've seen him play against the opponent's top line, i wasn't very impressed... nevertheless, he plays mistake free hockey, is good along the boards, gets checked by the refs too easily, he has great vision, he's got a great pass and isn't afraid to go to the net. i mean if you want a utility guy, that's it right there. center the third line, good on the pk and pp, he'll do what you need him to do and he'll do it well.

and most importantly, he has the ability to make his wingers better and that's what you want out of a center

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03-03-2011, 07:47 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Both Komisarek and Higgins were on their way to become something special for a lot of seasons. Higgins was playing an amazing 2-way game and scoring in bunches while Komisarek was destroying everything that moved and defending his teammates before the Carbo era killed both of them, in fact they were both what we are lacking right now...

If our prospects like Tinordi and Leblanc can play like those 2 were at their peaks, I will be one happy man.
Higgins' problems had to do with off ice stuff...drinking and partying.

Komisarek, his shoulder injury set him back and the big contract plus losing Markov as a partner have weakened his game.

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03-03-2011, 09:47 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Higgins' problems had to do with off ice stuff...drinking and partying.

Komisarek, his shoulder injury set him back and the big contract plus losing Markov as a partner have weakened his game.

That's all true...The partying was a big issue..it effected prices as well..

Higgings has been playing much better & scoring more last little while before he got traded to Vancouver.

Komi is still struggle in Toronto...

It's interesting how we placed these 2 players on pedistals at the time thinking that they were untouchable...and core players

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03-03-2011, 10:04 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Pouliot has great size, hands, vision & shot. He's always used these attributes at center. It's only in Montreal that we tried to change his game. In Hamilton they used him at center and he had great success. We haven't tried him at center for any games to see what he can do. The unfortunate thing about him is that in the past his confidence was easily rattled. I think by trying to change is game and putting him m on the wing played to his weakness at the time and hurt his confidence. We also bounced him around different lines to much. He has finally adjusted and is starting to produce. But I still think playing players at the strength and natural position is better for quicker NHL development.

Look at Eller, they are finally playing him at center(his natural position) and with better wingers and he's starting to play better.

Why try to change players to such drastic degrees. If we want a winger draft or trade for winger.
Pouliot does NOT have great vision.

Furthermore, he is not agile enough to turn on a dime like a center must.

It is the SAME reason that John Leclair was converted to a winger after growing up as "a big center".

Pouliot is NOT a "natural" center. Neither was Markov, though he played C as a kid.

It is no shame for a player to change positions at the highest level to take advantage of his strenths, which as you said are size and shot, in other words WINGER strengths.

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03-03-2011, 10:40 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Pouliot does NOT have great vision.

Furthermore, he is not agile enough to turn on a dime like a center must.

It is the SAME reason that John Leclair was converted to a winger after growing up as "a big center".

Pouliot is NOT a "natural" center. Neither was Markov, though he played C as a kid.

It is no shame for a player to change positions at the highest level to take advantage of his strenths, which as you said are size and shot, in other words WINGER strengths.
Being agile and turning on a dime is a nice trait for a center but is not the only trait that makes a center succesfull. Larger centers don't always need to depend on that trait because of their size which Poulliot has. Not only does he have size and a good shot but he is very good at distributing passes and setting up his lines mates. In the past while playing center he was also able to make the players around him better.

I think management put him on the wing not because he can't play center but more bc they were desperate to have big wingers on the team to play with our small centers and cami & gionta....Which I think it is a little backwards way of trading. If you want a big skilled winger trade for one don't always try to convert players. They did the same thing with Eller. They immediately put him on the wing bc they were again so desperately to have a big winger to play on our top 6....management is learning the long and hard way that is success will come by letting him play centre with talented wingers...

I think Eller & Ak....could be a very successful line

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03-03-2011, 10:53 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Being agile and turning on a dime is a nice trait for a center but is not the only trait that makes a center succesfull. Larger centers don't always need to depend on that trait because of their size which Poulliot has. Not only does he have size and a good shot but he is very good at distributing passes and setting up his lines mates. In the past while playing center he was also able to make the players around him better.

I think management put him on the wing not because he can't play center but more bc they were desperate to have big wingers on the team to play with our small centers and cami & gionta....Which I think it is a little backwards way of trading. If you want a big skilled winger trade for one don't always try to convert players. They did the same thing with Eller. They immediately put him on the wing bc they were again so desperately to have a big winger to play on our top 6....management is learning the long and hard way that is success will come by letting him play centre with talented wingers...

I think Eller & Ak....could be a very successful line
that was at Jr level... not everything translate into the NHL...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Being agile and turning on a dime is a nice trait for a center but is not the only trait that makes a center succesfull. Larger centers don't always need to depend on that trait because of their size which Poulliot has. Not only does he have size and a good shot but he is very good at distributing passes and setting up his lines mates. In the past while playing center he was also able to make the players around him better.

I think management put him on the wing not because he can't play center but more bc they were desperate to have big wingers on the team to play with our small centers and cami & gionta....Which I think it is a little backwards way of trading. If you want a big skilled winger trade for one don't always try to convert players. They did the same thing with Eller. They immediately put him on the wing bc they were again so desperately to have a big winger to play on our top 6....management is learning the long and hard way that is success will come by letting him play centre with talented wingers...

I think Eller & Ak....could be a very successful line
or maybe because they already have enough C as it is and wanted to see if he could adjust and play well on the wings...


Last edited by PyrettaBlaze*: 03-04-2011 at 09:02 AM.
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Old
03-03-2011, 11:54 AM
  #96
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check out arpon basu s latest article.once again ,he schools all,when it comes to covering the habs.there s no one even close to him.

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03-03-2011, 12:10 PM
  #97
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That's all true...The partying was a big issue..it effected prices as well..

Higgings has been playing much better & scoring more last little while before he got traded to Vancouver.

Komi is still struggle in Toronto...

It's interesting how we placed these 2 players on pedistals at the time thinking that they were untouchable...and core players
It's very rare to see players going from productive NHL players to guys that are just depth(4th line/#5-6 d-man) players.

Once guys hit Higgins level of 06-07 and 07-08 of around 25 goals and 25 assists they usually stay there for 6-10 years barring injuries. Komsarek in 07-08 was one of the top physical/shutdown d-men. If he had not screwed up his shoulder he may still be at that level, I think that's what set off the chain of events. He is stuck behind Schenn right now in his role and his cap hit stops him from being traded...tough situation.

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03-03-2011, 12:12 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Being agile and turning on a dime is a nice trait for a center but is not the only trait that makes a center succesfull. Larger centers don't always need to depend on that trait because of their size which Poulliot has. Not only does he have size and a good shot but he is very good at distributing passes and setting up his lines mates. In the past while playing center he was also able to make the players around him better.

I think management put him on the wing not because he can't play center but more bc they were desperate to have big wingers on the team to play with our small centers and cami & gionta....Which I think it is a little backwards way of trading. If you want a big skilled winger trade for one don't always try to convert players. They did the same thing with Eller. They immediately put him on the wing bc they were again so desperately to have a big winger to play on our top 6....management is learning the long and hard way that is success will come by letting him play centre with talented wingers...

I think Eller & Ak....could be a very successful line
I think Pouliot is not just on the wing for need, but also because he has less defensive responsibility on the wing, and defensive play is not his strength.

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Old
03-03-2011, 12:22 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Pacs is the same age. They're both from the 2007 draft.

Bournival, Kristo, Nattinen, and others all provide the same thing. Two-way play. It's nice, but we don't need our entire cupboard full of it.

Nattinen is 6'2 and hits anything that moves, but he's a terrible skater*
Bournival was just drafted and thus is the youngest, so more than likely the farthest away from being ready.
Kristo is the smallest, but in the World Juniors has been pretty key.


Gallagher is a small, speedy, skilled forward who doesn't take crap. A comparison could be Brad Marchand.

Gabriel Dumont is another small, but tough as nails guy. In the future he could be a Scott Nichol.

This summer is pretty much make, or break for Trunev (one of, it not our most skilled prospect) and Yemelin. If neither of them come over this year, then Yemelin more than likely never will and Trunev will be all but lost.

Tinordi is the type of defenseman we need. Not only did we trade up for him, but he's 1 of 3 defenseman we have of that type. Him, Pateryn and Yemelin. Considering he apparently had a slow transition to the OHL and now is just getting still puts him as our best defensive prospect ( Subban, and Weber are graduates imo) followed by Nash, who seems like a poor skater, well, you can see where our weakness lies.

We have Conboy/Schultz as our bottom 6 players who seem like they can play, forecheck and fight if need be. However, together, they could be a pretty slow/defensive reliability line. We really only need one.

Goaltending depth blows too. Price (NHL) Auld (NHL) Ramo (KHL) Simila (Finnish Elite League ?) Delams (ECHL/AHL) Sanford (AHL) and MacIntyre (AHL) 3 of them are UFA, Ramo is an RFA and probably won't come over for us. I think Delmas is an RFA ?

Colorado is looking for a goalie. Given Ramo's great stats in the KHL, we should be able to get something ok. Maybe they'd do Ryan Wilson for Ramo + Conditional pick if Ramo doesn't come over. Not sure if the honeymoon is over between Wilson and the avs yet.

With this draft, our 1st could land us one of.

Mika Zibanejad (could be the first line centre, but might be a more physical Eller)
Mark McNeil (could end up being a Mike Fisher type)
Nicklas Jensen - An hfer compared him to Jeff Carter in the O
Jaimeson Olesiak (could be a poor man's Tyler Myers, or a poor man's pylon)
David Musil.

Joel Armia - Should go top 15, but if he slips the habs could trade up for him if they like him enough, but that's a long stretch. Too big and too skilled to pass up on.

Basically, if the habs get lucky, we could add a real solid prospect to our pool.

Core prospects (Players currently not on the habs)

Louis Leblanc
Alexander Avitsin
Jarred Tinordi
Brendan Gallagher
Ian Schultz/Andrew Conboy.
+ This year's first round draftee

HM Andreas Engqvist (You need a defensive centreman.

Young players on the habs:
Carey Price
Pk Subban
Max Pacioretty
Lars Eller
Benoit Pouliot.
Ryan White

HM: David Desharnais - Guy is tremendously skilled and knows he had to work his ass off to get to the NHL. I wouldn't trade him for a ticket stub and peanuts, but if a fair offer came along, I'd be willing to take it.

Veterans:
Mike Cammalleri
Brian Gionta
Andrei Markov*
Josh Gorges
Tomas Plekanec
James Wisniewski*

We could lose 2 of them. Hopefully Gauthier doesn't have Bob Gainey mentality and waits till the end of the season. If we can re-sign Wiz, and Markov, I'd look to deal next year's first this year in either a package for a solid player (preferably 24, 25 range), or someone's first this year. Either a stretch, since it would be a while before the other team could get anything from the deal.
Good post analyzer, wish i could print it and mail it to gauthier heh

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03-03-2011, 03:32 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by The Goalie Mask View Post
Being agile and turning on a dime is a nice trait for a center but is not the only trait that makes a center succesfull. Larger centers don't always need to depend on that trait because of their size which Poulliot has. Not only does he have size and a good shot but he is very good at distributing passes and setting up his lines mates. In the past while playing center he was also able to make the players around him better.

I think management put him on the wing not because he can't play center but more bc they were desperate to have big wingers on the team to play with our small centers and cami & gionta....Which I think it is a little backwards way of trading. If you want a big skilled winger trade for one don't always try to convert players. They did the same thing with Eller. They immediately put him on the wing bc they were again so desperately to have a big winger to play on our top 6....management is learning the long and hard way that is success will come by letting him play centre with talented wingers...

I think Eller & Ak....could be a very successful line
Pouliot is not a center for the NHL. Just like John Leclair, when he got to the highest level, he had to adapt his game to take advantage of his strengths.

Eller is a more natural center, better defensive anticipation and defensive zone coverage, and a good stickhandler, all traits you like in a center.

Louis Leblanc is another guy who is currently playing C, but might translate into a good strong NHL RW. He has the shot, and he is good winning battles in the corners.

Assuming the AK46 era comes to an end, I see the following future lines:

Pleks-Avtsin-Cammy
Gomer-CaptainG-Patches
Eller-Leblanc-Pyatt
David-Goliath-Pouliot

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