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03-03-2011, 06:49 PM
  #26
Doug19
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Hooked, it's a big one! That was a longer fishing expedition than I expected, but I got the results I expected.


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03-03-2011, 06:59 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gagnefan924 View Post
How do you make these assumptions? How many times have you seen him play? Highlights and reading up on people questioning his skill doesnt count.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmVdVJ1sRJI
I'd like to pose the same question to you.

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03-03-2011, 07:17 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Gagnefan924 View Post
Thats a terrible excuse to why Murphy will not pan out. He really isnt that small. Plus if you watched him play, he is extremely effective using his quickness and his stick to take away his disadvantages in height. He's too shifty, and skilled to be considered a bust because of his size. Best stick handler in the draft, and probably one of the most accurate slapshots. Great speed, forwards and backwards. Columbus Blue Jacket fans ***** about not taking Cam Fowler, well folks, here's a better version. Its funny how you base your argument on a matter of a couple inches that considers someone "small" to a "normal" sized player.
I've made arguments for smaller players coming out of junior before and been completely wrong, so I think it's only fair that I offer my completely unbiased opinion on Ryan Murphy's NHL potential.

While I love his game on the junior level, I seriously have doubts about his ability to translate that game to the NHL. We're talking about a 5'10 defenseman that's listed at 160 pounds. While it's worth noting that junior teams do have big players, there is a higher ratio of smaller players in junior than there is in the NHL. That simply gets overlooked in alot of situations, I feel, when comparing an undersized player's size to other players around him. 5'10" is a HUGE difference to the average height of today's NHL defenseman. I'm not sure on the exact number, but I'd be willing to bet that if you surveyed the entire NHL, you would come back with an average number around 6'1", 210 pounds. That's literally just a guess, so take that for what it's worth.

Gilbert Brule absolutely WRECKED the WHL through his draft year and the following season, when he was sent back late in the year. When he got to the NHL, his game simply didn't transfer over - and I will make the argument that his size was the main reason for that. He played a hard checking, power forward game in the WHL (over 200 PIMs in his draft year), and simply wasn't able to do that against the larger NHL forwards.

All that being said, Murphy doesn't play that style - but, it will be alot easier for a team to throw their third line checkers out and literally just tell them to put the puck into the zone behind him and pound him into the glass, than it would for them to say that with a 6'3" defender like Hamilton. That is the main reason players like Murphy have a hard time playing in the NHL. I'm not saying he's going to bust - he's just at a much, much higher risk of doing so than some of the other players in the draft.

When Kris Russell was drafted by the Blue Jackets, I was absolutely ecstatic - more excited to see him go to the Jackets than I was any other player in that draft, because I had seen him play live and I knew that he was going to be a star defender in the NHL. One of the first things I did was tout him heavily on these boards to all of my fellow Jacket fans, I seriously thought he was the next Larry Murphy.

Looking back, I now realize that Russell was an extremely longshot to even make it to the NHL. I fear the same things with Murphy - one time into the corner with Milan Lucic on the forecheck could completely change him forever.

I'm definitely not against us taking Ryan Murphy, but if we do so, we'd better select a solid prospect in the second round, because he's far from a sure thing. Much, much farther from the NHL than Cam Fowler.

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03-03-2011, 07:34 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug61 View Post
Hooked, it's a big one! That was a longer fishing expedition than I expected, but I got the results I expected.
Yea sure...

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Originally Posted by Samkow View Post
I'd like to pose the same question to you.
Enough to make a fair assessment on his play. I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me but atleast know what player your discussing.

To GCG:

You basically sum it up with the potential of Murphy busting. The only problem I have, is that he avoids big time checks. He's a smart player and he knows he has the disadvantage. Its the same way RNH avoids getting killed. He wins puck battles by being quick and creative. I'm not saying Murphy should be the only guy we should be looking at, but if he's on the board and th BPA, take him. Its up to Howson. Personally, I rather trade up and get another stud forward. Strome or Huberdeau.


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03-03-2011, 08:16 PM
  #30
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I ask a simple question, and I get a thread on Murphy?

Guys and gals, this is enough to give me a
Let me try to rephrase the question: We got Umberger with the 19th pick so what defenseman might we get with a mid first round pick, and if we have to package it with a player, then fine. But tell me, what or who might we fetch in a trade. I want a name or two.

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03-03-2011, 11:26 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Timeless Winter View Post
We can let another team solve his mental problems. Arniel is not a babysitter
He does not need a babysitter he only neded similar experience as this year so your comment was useless. IMo this season very helps him and learns him much. The neyt year it will be another Filatov. But it to the Fillys thread.

I do not know Murphy but IMO Moore is not our the best prospect defensman in Falcons what I saw /and I want to buy a game in Saturday/ Savard and especially Goloubef are better players. Only Cody needs much play.


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Old
03-03-2011, 11:34 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
He does not need a babysitter he only neded similar experience as this year so your comment was useless.

I do not know Murphy but IMO Moore is not our the best prospect defensman in Falcons what I saw /and I want to buy a game in Saturday/ Savard and especially Goloubef are better players.
Cody impressed me with his composure and reliability back there. I do not think he'll be better than Moore though. Moore is such a great skater, he needs his hands and decision making to catch up to him. It will come. Savard is a stud that gets NO RECOGNITION AT ALL. Its unbelievable. Let him do the same thing next year and maybe he'll get some love. Murphy blows all 3 of those dmen out of the water when it comes to offensive prowess though. Think Moore's skating, and Savard's QBPP ability. But he also has unbelievable hands ect ect ect. That said, I want Huberdeau for forward and Murphy for D. Puempel if we stay around the 10-12 spot. As for trading for dmen, we arent going to get a better dman through trade then we would through the draft. It's quite simple, you build your team through drafting well. All the best teams do it. How do you think they get all their better players? You then add around the main core. I think we get one more offensive stud this year, and were set to be good in the future.

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03-03-2011, 11:49 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gagnefan924 View Post
Cody impressed me with his composure and reliability back there. I do not think he'll be better than Moore though. Moore is such a great skater, he needs his hands and decision making to catch up to him. It will come. Savard is a stud that gets NO RECOGNITION AT ALL. Its unbelievable. Let him do the same thing next year and maybe he'll get some love. Murphy blows all 3 of those dmen out of the water when it comes to offensive prowess though. Think Moore's skating, and Savard's QBPP ability. But he also has unbelievable hands ect ect ect. That said, I want Huberdeau for forward and Murphy for D. Puempel if we stay around the 10-12 spot. As for trading for dmen, we arent going to get a better dman through trade then we would through the draft. It's quite simple, you build your team through drafting well. All the best teams do it. How do you think they get all their better players? You then add around the main core. I think we get one more offensive stud this year, and were set to be good in the future.
Cody is a great skater too and he has excelent passes and a hockey sense. But Moore played every game in while of Goloubef was often HS. It is a pity he did not play in one of Canadian juniors leauges but in Wisconsin.
If we would draft as fisrt, we would drafted Larsson, Landeskog, Nuggent-Hopkins or Couturier but not Murphy.

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03-04-2011, 07:09 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
Cody is a great skater too and he has excelent passes and a hockey sense. But Moore played every game in while of Goloubef was often HS. It is a pity he did not play in one of Canadian juniors leauges but in Wisconsin.
If we would draft as fisrt, we would drafted Larsson, Landeskog, Nuggent-Hopkins or Couturier but not Murphy.
Obviously....were not going to be picking there. Were talking 1st round pick not 1st overall. Hopefully since this team is basically out of a playoff shot, we drop to 6 or 7th. That should give us a pretty good chance for Strome or Huberdeau.

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03-04-2011, 08:14 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Glover View Post

I ask a simple question, and I get a thread on Murphy?

Guys and gals, this is enough to give me a
Let me try to rephrase the question: We got Umberger with the 19th pick so what defenseman might we get with a mid first round pick, and if we have to package it with a player, then fine. But tell me, what or who might we fetch in a trade. I want a name or two.
Hmmmm, you got to find the teams that are 1) rebuilding and/or 2) cutting salary. I usually rely on the media to put the smoke up there before I go searching for the fires, but just doing a VERY cursory perusing hockeybuzz's cap central, I'd make some calls to these teams in the offseason:

Pittsburgh (not rebuilding, but a lot of UFA Fs with a lot of money already committed to D next year). I'd love to get Letang, but can't see the Pens moving him.

Caps are in a similar boat. Maybe get Wideman in the offseason (though considering he just went for an ECHLer and 3rd, I'm not sure we'd have to burn the 1st).

Philly. (a lot of payroll committed next year, but not a lot of holes) Here's an old rumored target -- Matt Carle?)

Jersey looks to be over a barrel money-wise and still needs to sign Parise, but not much is tied up in their D and frankly, none of the names really interest me.

Stamkos is due a raise which maybe could squeeze Tampa. It wouldn't be a CBJ offseason if I didn't type the name Pavel Kubina.

Both Whitney and Gilbert were rumored trade pieces for the Oilers during the season. Would EDM move them in the offseason?

Not sure if it would necessarily take a 1st rounder to get all of these guys (Letang, yes, at least. Gilbert, probably not). But there are some names that jumped out to me.

Of course, if we're talking dmen, I'd rather just sign Ehrhoff.
Or throw a big-ol RFA deal at Shea Weber....

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03-04-2011, 10:40 AM
  #36
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Calvert seems to be showing that small and fast can be a very lethal combination. Much more so than big and slow.

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03-04-2011, 10:42 AM
  #37
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If there is an RFA that Howson should ever consider throwing a contract at, it would be Shea Weber.

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03-04-2011, 11:14 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by EDM View Post
If there is an RFA that Howson should ever consider throwing a contract at, it would be Shea Weber.
Preds would match any offer IMO. They have serious cap space.

If SH could pry Weber from the Preds, it would be the coup of the century. Then again would SH be able to part with the picks? Weber's making $4.5M and will be in line for a substantial increase.

Over $6,026,867 to $7,533,584
Two 1st's, one 2nd, one 3rd round pick

Over $7,533,584
Four 1st round picks

For those who think he'll be signed for less,

Over $4,520,150 to $6,026,867
1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick

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03-04-2011, 11:45 AM
  #39
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Everyone come back down to earth. We arent getting Weber. Question though, with the 1st round compensation, would that apply to Ehrhoff?

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03-04-2011, 11:53 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Gagnefan924 View Post
Everyone come back down to earth. We arent getting Weber. Question though, with the 1st round compensation, would that apply to Ehrhoff?
Ehrhoff is a UFA to be. Correct? So no.

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03-04-2011, 11:53 AM
  #41
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Isn't Erhoff a UFA? So RFA criteria would not apply.

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03-04-2011, 05:43 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Glover View Post

I ask a simple question, and I get a thread on Murphy?

Guys and gals, this is enough to give me a
Let me try to rephrase the question: We got Umberger with the 19th pick so what defenseman might we get with a mid first round pick, and if we have to package it with a player, then fine. But tell me, what or who might we fetch in a trade. I want a name or two.
If we sent the first round pick alone, I think the stage has been pretty much set - we could attain a Versteeg type of player, IMO. If we packaged the first rounder with say Nikita Filatov, the return could be much higher depending on who is shopping what for what. I would love to see us come away with a top-pairing defenseman if we're sending that pick away - even if it includes us sending away Filatov with it.

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03-05-2011, 01:57 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
The value of the 1st pick by itself is low. We'd be better off keeping it and drafting someone as opposed to trading it straight up.

Its utility, in my opinion, comes mostly in the ability to incorporate it into a package.
I agree with this. I don't know that the value of a first-round pick has ever been lower, which is pretty much the opposite of what I predicted when the salary cap was implemented. A first-rounder was used to acquire Mike Fisher, a 30-year-old second-liner with a contract that is way out of skew relative to his production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoChiefsGo View Post
I've made arguments for smaller players coming out of junior before and been completely wrong, so I think it's only fair that I offer my completely unbiased opinion on Ryan Murphy's NHL potential.

While I love his game on the junior level, I seriously have doubts about his ability to translate that game to the NHL. We're talking about a 5'10 defenseman that's listed at 160 pounds. While it's worth noting that junior teams do have big players, there is a higher ratio of smaller players in junior than there is in the NHL. That simply gets overlooked in alot of situations, I feel, when comparing an undersized player's size to other players around him. 5'10" is a HUGE difference to the average height of today's NHL defenseman. I'm not sure on the exact number, but I'd be willing to bet that if you surveyed the entire NHL, you would come back with an average number around 6'1", 210 pounds. That's literally just a guess, so take that for what it's worth.
I don't think that the difference is even consequential for a variety of reasons. Physical height is a terribly overrated number, and weight (which is generally used as a rough indicator of strength) fails to take all sorts of genetic factors into account. Olympic weightlifters are an example of guys who are extremely slight and yet freakishly strong, and things that don't show up in height/weight like limb length and muscle attachment points are as important or more important than height and weight.

Quote:
Gilbert Brule absolutely WRECKED the WHL through his draft year and the following season, when he was sent back late in the year. When he got to the NHL, his game simply didn't transfer over - and I will make the argument that his size was the main reason for that. He played a hard checking, power forward game in the WHL (over 200 PIMs in his draft year), and simply wasn't able to do that against the larger NHL forwards.
In retrospect, there was a huge red flag. Brule was noticed and stood out in every game that he played because he was always doing something. If he wasn't scoring, he was passing. If he wasn't passing, he was hitting. If he was getting hit, he was destroying an opponent (Ondrej Fiala, this means you).

But what was overlooked was that he basically was told to go out there and play without much regard for complex systems and the ability to think on the fly. At the NHL and even the AHL level, he always seemed to be behind....he'd go the wrong way, he'd stand flat-footed and get turned around on a breakout, he'd get confused in the neutral zone and basically float through space. The modern NHL requires a cerebral approach on the ice; I don't necessarily go for the lost confidence angle as much as the fact that he always looked tentative.

Quote:
When Kris Russell was drafted by the Blue Jackets, I was absolutely ecstatic - more excited to see him go to the Jackets than I was any other player in that draft, because I had seen him play live and I knew that he was going to be a star defender in the NHL. One of the first things I did was tout him heavily on these boards to all of my fellow Jacket fans, I seriously thought he was the next Larry Murphy.

Looking back, I now realize that Russell was an extremely longshot to even make it to the NHL. I fear the same things with Murphy - one time into the corner with Milan Lucic on the forecheck could completely change him forever.
I think Russell's issues stem from a variety of other causes. It's been said many times before that defensemen tend to have a steeper learning curve; in that sense, Russell's sporadic play is not entirely unexpected, but his failure to have really begun to progress is alarming.

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