HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Nashville Predators
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

At what point is enough for you

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-03-2011, 10:58 AM
  #1
Joe T Choker
Wookin' Pa Nub in...
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: all the wrong places
Country: Italy
Posts: 24,831
vCash: 500
At what point is enough for you

With regards to Management/Coaching ? ... Every year it seems we have a good start but depth in the scoring department is always an issue with our team. How much longer does Poile have in your eyes ? The same can be said for Trotz ... They've done a great job BUILDING this franchise, just haven't been able to take us over the top.

Joe T Choker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 11:05 AM
  #2
jlsg
Registered User
 
jlsg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 476
vCash: 500
Until we don't have the self imposed cap, neither can be blamed. I'd say that few could do as well given the limitations that these two have. Looking at other "small market teams" you have 2 cups, Carolina and Tampa Bay. Magical seasons for both but then what? How close has Columbus or Phoenix been, any closer then we have? How many playoff appearances have any of these teams had?
I know we have to take the next step, I get that. But reality is that's going to be real hard with the limits we're faced with. Changing coaching or front office will not change that fact.

jlsg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 11:05 AM
  #3
PredsV82
Puckaroni and cheese
 
PredsV82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Outside
Country: Scotland
Posts: 15,315
vCash: 650
The problem is this franchise cannot afford to blow the team up and rebuild for three years.

I do not believe the fanbase would tolerate 2 or 3 years of edmonton like suckage even if the end result was a couple of top 3 picks and a kickass team in 4 years.

So if you fire Poile but saddle the new GM with the same players and the same budget restrictions, not much will change.

If you change coaches, you still have the same bunch of (quoting myself) stonehanded turds that cant put the puck in the net. A new system isnt going to make them any more able to finish.

I think we are stuck with this pattern(ie good enough to compete and keep fans interested, not good enough to get much farther than we do every year) for the time being, like it or not.

PredsV82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 11:12 AM
  #4
BigFatCat999
I love GoOoOlD
 
BigFatCat999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Campbell, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 10,533
vCash: 500
I can't really scream about this year because the injuries have been like a surgical strike from a GPS aimed bunker buster. The injuries hit RIGHT where it would hurt the most. Next year is going to be fascinating because if the cap goes up as expected the Preds could sign Weber for 7 million, say SK to 2 million, and then the rest of the RFAs and still have about 3 million left for a winger. Center wise, Nashville could be very very interesting if Lombardi comes back healthy. Dumont could be bought out. Sully will be gone. Ward most likely will be gone but I honestly expect him to be resigned.

As for when will it be enough? The team is young and you can't really blow up a young team. You need to find solid veteran leadership.

BigFatCat999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 11:22 AM
  #5
PredsV82
Puckaroni and cheese
 
PredsV82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Outside
Country: Scotland
Posts: 15,315
vCash: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
I can't really scream about this year because the injuries have been like a surgical strike from a GPS aimed bunker buster. The injuries hit RIGHT where it would hurt the most. Next year is going to be fascinating because if the cap goes up as expected the Preds could sign Weber for 7 million, say SK to 2 million, and then the rest of the RFAs and still have about 3 million left for a winger. Center wise, Nashville could be very very interesting if Lombardi comes back healthy. Dumont could be bought out. Sully will be gone. Ward most likely will be gone but I honestly expect him to be resigned.

As for when will it be enough? The team is young and you can't really blow up a young team. You need to find solid veteran leadership.
you could blow up a young team if you decided that you needed a new coach with a new system and different players for that system.

We could certainly get a kings ransom for Suter and Weber and decent return for Legwand and Erat if they didnt have NTCs


hypothetically, if we wanted to revamp this team and start over, we could probably have multiple high draft picks to work with or raid other teams prospects.

but we cant and wont do that.

Im not so sure we should resign SK for 2 mil. lets see how he does down the stretch this year. He could be turning into Radek Bonk II.

The trick would be to convince a real top tier scorer to come here with whatever money we do have to offer. Or to swing a trade for one with our stockplie of prospect defensemen.

PredsV82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 11:37 AM
  #6
BigFatCat999
I love GoOoOlD
 
BigFatCat999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Campbell, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 10,533
vCash: 500
I would rather swing a trade. When the cap goes up, that's inflation in the NHL and I would rather have a goal scorer on old money than sign a UFA.

The foundation is there but Nashville needs one goal scorer. As for coaching my question is this. Would this team be better off with an offensive minded coach if the team gives up as many as it scores?

Some of Nashville's talent have flourished in other locals statistically but their teams sucked like a hoover.

BigFatCat999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 12:13 PM
  #7
PredsV82
Puckaroni and cheese
 
PredsV82's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Outside
Country: Scotland
Posts: 15,315
vCash: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
I would rather swing a trade. When the cap goes up, that's inflation in the NHL and I would rather have a goal scorer on old money than sign a UFA.

The foundation is there but Nashville needs one goal scorer. As for coaching my question is this. Would this team be better off with an offensive minded coach if the team gives up as many as it scores?

Some of Nashville's talent have flourished in other locals statistically but their teams sucked like a hoover.
Again, I think you'd have to have more than one new player to expect success with a different coach and a different system.

PredsV82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 12:56 PM
  #8
jstreet
Smashville
 
jstreet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: smashville
Country: United States
Posts: 8,599
vCash: 50
2 thoughts

1. We just need to make a big trade! Poile said in the offseason and at the deadline that prices were too inflated for what was out there. Well when is it not?! When players on their last leg get cut from training camp invites, and that is no way to build a playoff team!

2. When injuries happen and we start losing, the coaches pull out lines like "injuries are no excuse, we have to win with the guys we have, blah blah blah." Well when does that same mentality start applying to the coaches?

Im not on the fire trotz wagon, but I think this needs to be thought through

jstreet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 01:12 PM
  #9
deanwormer
Registered User
 
deanwormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 1,147
vCash: 437
Myself, assuming we sign Weber and go down the path to keeping Suter and Lombardi comes back and we buy out JP, I'd like to go after a wing in the offseason. I want them to play enough forecheck and D that they fit in, but we've lived with Sully and JP on wings for years and they haven't played D in years, so I don't need them to be Legwand on D, I need them to score. Then sign Orly or Goc.

Now, line Fisher up as a wing on one line, Horny as a wing on the other line, put Erat with Lombardi and one of those guys, Leggy and whoever we sign with the other. Orly/Goc centers Wilson and whichever kid we go with - Geoffrion or Klaussen - don't care, pick one. Smitty/Spaling/Toots/Halischuck makes the 4th line, and they need to play 4th line minutes. Toots either makes or breaks next year, and Smitty needs to be perma-scratch.

If that team can't makes some noise, then I want some serious discussion on whether or not Trotz and/or Poile are gonna' get us there. I know - you could make that argument now - but I tend to agree with whoever made the point about our internal salary cap does hamstring them to a good degree. But, we should get some breathing room from the cap inflation, and our guys are still young enough they haven't got huge contracts yet, so we can make this work I think.

Note - no Ward, no SK, and my choice would be Orly cause he's cheaper - put the bloody money toward that scoring wing - we'll manage just fine with the kids being our fill-ins rather than needing "veteran depth".

deanwormer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 02:51 PM
  #10
Filip Forceberg
Registered User
 
Filip Forceberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 2,359
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by deanwormer View Post
Myself, assuming we sign Weber and go down the path to keeping Suter and Lombardi comes back and we buy out JP, I'd like to go after a wing in the offseason. I want them to play enough forecheck and D that they fit in, but we've lived with Sully and JP on wings for years and they haven't played D in years, so I don't need them to be Legwand on D, I need them to score. Then sign Orly or Goc.

Now, line Fisher up as a wing on one line, Horny as a wing on the other line, put Erat with Lombardi and one of those guys, Leggy and whoever we sign with the other. Orly/Goc centers Wilson and whichever kid we go with - Geoffrion or Klaussen - don't care, pick one. Smitty/Spaling/Toots/Halischuck makes the 4th line, and they need to play 4th line minutes. Toots either makes or breaks next year, and Smitty needs to be perma-scratch.

If that team can't makes some noise, then I want some serious discussion on whether or not Trotz and/or Poile are gonna' get us there. I know - you could make that argument now - but I tend to agree with whoever made the point about our internal salary cap does hamstring them to a good degree. But, we should get some breathing room from the cap inflation, and our guys are still young enough they haven't got huge contracts yet, so we can make this work I think.

Note - no Ward, no SK, and my choice would be Orly cause he's cheaper - put the bloody money toward that scoring wing - we'll manage just fine with the kids being our fill-ins rather than needing "veteran depth".
Why wouldn't you want to bring Kostitsyn back? He's been our best forward this year...

Filip Forceberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 04:33 PM
  #11
deanwormer
Registered User
 
deanwormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 1,147
vCash: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by PredaDORES View Post
Why wouldn't you want to bring Kostitsyn back? He's been our best forward this year...
Ultimately - numbers. The 5 guys I'd put in our top 6 all already have contracts; the new wing - a true scorer, makes 6. So, you sign SK you got 7 guys and one moves down..

However, if you move 1 of the 7 down, it does 2 things; one - takes a spot away from one of our kids - either Geoffrion or Klassen (or someone else who tears it up), and two, it costs us a whole lot more to have SK in that roster spot than either of those kids - probably $1 - $1.2 mil give or take.

So, in the end, I figure we're better off with the kid and the extra $1.2 mil spent on the winger than we are with SK and a winger that we got for less. Course, if there's enough cash for SK and a really good wing we take that, but it just seems that'd be a bit tight.

deanwormer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 06:21 PM
  #12
braindead
Registered User
 
braindead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: The cookie spoke
Country: Tibet
Posts: 2,784
vCash: 500
Personally, I think this team is much, much closer than most seem to think. Look at the goals against number-- that is Stanley Cup caliber defense. Our D corp still is coming into its own and I'd fully expect that it is more dominant over the next 3 years. Our fowards can play defense and a PK anchored by Smithson/Spaling will continue to emerge IMO. Our goalie is spectacular and does not look like a flash in the pan.

When healthy, we can roll 3 or even 4 lines that are solid second lines. In this market, with our budget and our defense, I think the philosophy of building three "second" lines can win a cup. What this team lacks this year, as said above, is healthy centers.

To me, Poile has pulled off not one but two rebuilds right in front of our eyes and nobody seems to notice. You don't notice because he did it without tanking. We have a supremely young team and are well on our way to working our way out of the Liepold blow up era where we lost Kariya, Timmonen, Hartnell, and Vokoun-- then lost Rads a year later. Now, we are near the end of the Arnott-Sully-Dumont era and look to me mostly well positioned.

Sorry to be so optimistic.

braindead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 07:00 PM
  #13
Fortheloveofthegame
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 1,199
vCash: 500
Your team needs to sign SK. He is one of the few creative, exciting players to watch out there. I would put Erat, and Wilson there too.
He has had a rough go lately, but you can see he thinks the game well and makes some great creative plays, instead of "dump and chase" and hope to come up with the puck! O'Reilly also, when he was on his game, created out there

Fortheloveofthegame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 07:12 PM
  #14
glenngineer
HFB Partner
 
glenngineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Spring Hill, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 4,344
vCash: 500
I think the system needs to adapt some. Every line plays dump and chase and while our guys aren't elite offensively, some of our guys have the ability to stick handle. Why not use that to our advantage? Injuries have hurt us this year but we've been without guys throughout the season and had good stretches with many of them out so I don't fully buy the injury excuse. We can say we'd be a better team with Lombardi for the bulk of the season but we really have no idea because he played a game and a half.

I think Trotz and Poile do well with what they're allowed to do but I think it's shortsighted to think that another coach couldn't come in here and do the same, if not better job. I'm not saying it's a guarantee but I think the mystique of Trotz is a little overrated in my book.

glenngineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 07:27 PM
  #15
deanwormer
Registered User
 
deanwormer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Nashville
Country: United States
Posts: 1,147
vCash: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by braindead View Post
Personally, I think this team is much, much closer than most seem to think. Look at the goals against number-- that is Stanley Cup caliber defense. Our D corp still is coming into its own and I'd fully expect that it is more dominant over the next 3 years.
-snip-
When healthy, we can roll 3 or even 4 lines that are solid second lines. In this market, with our budget and our defense, I think the philosophy of building three "second" lines can win a cup. What this team lacks this year, as said above, is healthy centers.
I would tend to agree with all that. What you don't address is scoring, or lack thereof. Yes, losing the centers hurt, but we're on pace for around 200 goals; I think you'd have figured on 230ish at the beginning of the year. Yes, some of that is losing Lombardi and the general injuries, but some of that is Sully and Dumont getting old and us really not having any kinda' regular offensive contributors.

deanwormer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 09:35 PM
  #16
roseyc
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,086
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I think the system needs to adapt some. Every line plays dump and chase and while our guys aren't elite offensively, some of our guys have the ability to stick handle. Why not use that to our advantage? Injuries have hurt us this year but we've been without guys throughout the season and had good stretches with many of them out so I don't fully buy the injury excuse. We can say we'd be a better team with Lombardi for the bulk of the season but we really have no idea because he played a game and a half.

I think Trotz and Poile do well with what they're allowed to do but I think it's shortsighted to think that another coach couldn't come in here and do the same, if not better job. I'm not saying it's a guarantee but I think the mystique of Trotz is a little overrated in my book.
Simple logic will tell you that if Trotz gets this team into the playoffs then there's no move to be made. The expectations are of that we were a no. 5 seed with all the injuries and so you can't blame the injuries. If they weren't in contention then you could. Lombardi shouldn't be played into this at all because he hasn't basically played this year. Next year is the offseason questions. Right now Trotz has to find enough offense to get us in and we are a 3 game winning streak away from 4th and the schedule down the stretch is in our favor so we would have only ourselves to blame if we don't make it. Far as another coach come in here and do the same as Trotz. Absolutely. Trotz has done well but like Fisher with the Titans all things will come to an end. Trotz isn't the only coach who coaches on string budget look at Phoenix. Tippit has done the same and perhaps better. So just because Poile says Trotz is his man doesn't mean he is only coach that we need considering the financial contraits. It does seem that his words are not motivating the team anymore. We'll see and I hope for the best and gladly hope I'm wrong

roseyc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 09:41 PM
  #17
glenngineer
HFB Partner
 
glenngineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Spring Hill, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 4,344
vCash: 500
Rosey, I'll be honest, I look at what Lemaire has done with the same exact bunch that MacLean had in NJ and think to myself, does a coach make that much of a difference? Obviously it does. Too bad Lou didn't pull the trigger on MacLean earlier because if he had, the Devils probably would've made the playoffs. I've learned to tolerate Trotz. I respect what he's done but like Fisher, I don't think he's the man to take us any further than he has. People always talked up Fisher but if you look at his record and his success or lack thereof in the playoffs, it was time for him to go. What happens is anyone's guess there. What happens to the long term success of the Preds is anyone's guess as well.

And in answer to the original question at hand, it was years ago for me.

glenngineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 10:26 PM
  #18
Legionnaire11
Registered User
 
Legionnaire11's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Largo
Country: United States
Posts: 2,751
vCash: 500
It was enough for me about 5 years ago... I just got tired of arguing the same thing season after season. Like Bud Adams said a few weeks ago, a guy can be a really good coach, but after so long it's just time for something different.

Legionnaire11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 10:53 PM
  #19
don28
Registered User
 
don28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Nashville, TN
Country: United States
Posts: 199
vCash: 500
Bob Hartley for coach?

don28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 11:36 PM
  #20
hockey diva
Registered User
 
hockey diva's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Beleriand
Posts: 1,497
vCash: 500
No.

I've been done for 2 seasons. Until Poile goes, Trotz won't go either. I hope the ownership group takes a long hard look at Poile lack of success over 2 decades and pulls the trigger on him, Trotz and Horacheck.

hockey diva is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 11:44 PM
  #21
cleangene
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Beautiful Bellevue
Posts: 984
vCash: 500
To not get out of the 1st round in 06/07 was enough for me regarding the coaching staff. With what happened that immediate summer though, it was the best idea to keep them here. Now it does seem the message is stale, especially with the performance of the power-less play.

cleangene is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-03-2011, 11:56 PM
  #22
TMI
Mod Supervisor
 
TMI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 45,939
vCash: 500
wrong thread

TMI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2011, 01:16 AM
  #23
dulzhok
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 3,528
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleangene View Post
To not get out of the 1st round in 06/07 was enough for me regarding the coaching staff. With what happened that immediate summer though, it was the best idea to keep them here. Now it does seem the message is stale, especially with the performance of the power-less play.
We were a 4/5 seed playing the hottest team in the league-- one that had more talent as well. And we had significant injuries too boot.

Trotz takes what's usually a bottom 5 group of talent and turns them into a playoff team.

Honeslty, I think Trotz and Mitch Korn have saved Poile's a$$.

Korn turned Dunham into a decent goalie. Turned Vokoun into elite. Turned AHL goalies Ellis and Mason into decent NHL goalies. Turned Peks into high-end goalie.

Without good goal tending and good coaching, I'd doubt we'd be any better off than Atlanta.

Ff it was me, Poile would be gone. He's good at building a foundation, but has a 27 year history of not getting beyond that. And I think we are seeing the reasons why-- lack of boldness, little creativity in trades, unable to draft scorers, and overall, just too passive to bring us to the next level.

But, I doubt either one goes anywhere.

dulzhok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2011, 01:19 AM
  #24
CalleJAMkrok
Weber/Neal/Rinne
 
CalleJAMkrok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Yesterday
Country: Ireland
Posts: 4,151
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dulzhok View Post
We were a 4/5 seed playing the hottest team in the league-- one that had more talent as well. And we had significant injuries too boot.

Trotz takes what's usually a bottom 5 group of talent and turns them into a playoff team.

Honeslty, I think Trotz and Mitch Korn have saved Poile's a$$.

Korn turned Dunham into a decent goalie. Turned Vokoun into elite. Turned AHL goalies Ellis and Mason into decent NHL goalies. Turned Peks into high-end goalie.

Without good goal tending and good coaching, I'd doubt we'd be any better off than Atlanta.

Ff it was me, Poile would be gone. He's good at building a foundation, but has a 27 year history of not getting beyond that. And I think we are seeing the reasons why-- lack of boldness, little creativity in trades, unable to draft scorers, and overall, just too passive to bring us to the next level.

But, I doubt either one goes anywhere.
Exactly how i see it.

CalleJAMkrok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-04-2011, 02:00 PM
  #25
101st_fan
I taught Yoda
 
101st_fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Some Army fort
Country: United States
Posts: 6,015
vCash: 500
Can we just link the past several years of the same debate and save all of us a lot of time typing?

101st_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:41 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.