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Is it REALLY just the scoring??????

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03-04-2011, 08:23 AM
  #1
patnyrnyg
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Is it REALLY just the scoring??????

OK, so when I mentioned about Lundqvist being a big part of their problem, just about everyone on here and their mother jumped all over me. "They never score....they make bad goalies look good." Then, I noticed the Rangers have scored 8 more goals than the Capitals and only 10 less than the Penguins yet both of those teams were securely in a play-off spot.

I know the first rebuttal will be, "The totals might be similar but the Rangers total is skewed by games like the two Caps games where they scored 6 and 7 and the Oilers game where they scored 8."

The second comment would be, "They are more consistent game to game."

So, I went on to www.hockey-reference.com and did some research. Took about a minute and 45 seconds to tally it up.

Penguins have scored more than 5 goals in a game 5 times, been shutout 5 times and 9 times have scored only 1 goal.

Capitals have scored more than 5 goals in a game 6 times, been shutout 8 times, and scored only 1 goal 9 times.

Rangers have scored more than 5 goals in a game 7 times, been shutout only 4, and scored only 1 goal 12 times.

So, the rangers have scored less than 2 goals 16 times, the penguins 14, and the caps 17. Seems like the Pens and Caps have the same struggles scoring goals, yet they are ahead in the standings.


So, then someone on another site stated, "well, you should check out when they scored 2 or less, bet that would tell a different story." So, I checked that out. That I will admit took about 3 1/2 minutes to compile.

In games where they have scored 2 goals or less:

Rangers are 9-23-1 19 points 33 games.

Penguins are 6-16-7 19 points 29 games (same points, 4 less games.

Caps are 5-21-8, 18 points 34 games 1 less point, 1 MORE game.


So, to paraphrase, the Penguins have 29 games of 2 goals or less, the Rangers 33, and the Caps 34. Penguins have earned the same amount of points in those games, the Caps only one less.

Come on now, try to rebutt these facts. Oh and let me remind you, Pens and Caps are securely in play-off spots. Likely to play each other in the first round.

But, it is the scorers right? So I have shown how these two teams have similar goal totals, have the same big goal games to skew their totals, and the same low-goal outputs to demonstrate inconsistency amongst their scoring, yet let me remind you, their fans are not wondering if they will be playing in the play-offs.

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03-04-2011, 08:27 AM
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HockeyBasedNYC
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The Rangers have outchanced almost every team in this "slump"

Finishing = points and wins.

How do you finish? Talent or developing into that talent.

End of story for me.

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03-04-2011, 08:31 AM
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The Beezer
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Definitely the scoring. You can't expect to score one or two goals a game and be successful in this league.

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03-04-2011, 08:33 AM
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Just saw the game and i am very frustrated und angry...its just the same thing, we play good, outshoot the other team and finally lose the game...i think we are just too stupid to score goals!!! we will miss the playoffs and thats only fair because we dont deserve it to be there...i am a big rangers fan but its no fun to watch them the last time!

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03-04-2011, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
The Rangers have outchanced almost every team in this "slump"

Finishing = points and wins.

How do you finish? Talent or developing into that talent.

End of story for me.
This is exactly correct. Infuriating has been the fact that every game we have lost, it seems as though we get two chances to the opponent's 1.

Not of course, this is a relative crop of forwards that gave Mike Brodeur a shutout last year. I'm not saying Dubinsky and Callahan are 3rd liners. They aren't. They are 2nd liners. But this team needs a finisher. Brian Boyle leading the team in goals with 20 at this point in the season is great for Boyle, not so good for everyone else.

Gaborik needs to get back and get busy, or we're not going anywhere.

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03-04-2011, 08:41 AM
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patnyrnyg
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
The Rangers have outchanced almost every team in this "slump"

Finishing = points and wins.

How do you finish? Talent or developing into that talent.

End of story for me.
So, Theodore didn't make some sick saves to steal the game? While Lundqvist faced 3 good shots all game and they all went in.

Like I have shown (unless you just read the thread title), the Caps and Pens have scored similar amounts, had the same problem with inconsistency and low-scoring games, yet are securely in play-off spots.

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03-04-2011, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by The Beezer View Post
Definitely the scoring. You can't expect to score one or two goals a game and be successful in this league.
Caps have more games of 2 goals or less, Pens have almost as many. Teams have similar goal totals for the season. Pens right now are the 4th seed and Caps the 5th. Same problems with scoring, but better records.

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03-04-2011, 08:45 AM
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Sucks when you have someone like Gilroy on the ice. No defensive ability and clearly doing nothing on the offensive end. Just can't have defensive liabilities.

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03-04-2011, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Caps have more games of 2 goals or less, Pens have almost as many. Teams have similar goal totals for the season. Pens right now are the 4th seed and Caps the 5th. Same problems with scoring, but better records.
I'm guessing that these teams have the ability to get a goal when needed (e.g. The Caps tying the game against the Isles the other night with 19 seconds left) and get to OT where they get a point and have the chance to pick up the extra point thats up for grabs. The numbers might look the same, but these teams are lighting the lamp when it's needed and getting important points out of games.

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03-04-2011, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Caps have more games of 2 goals or less, Pens have almost as many. Teams have similar goal totals for the season. Pens right now are the 4th seed and Caps the 5th. Same problems with scoring, but better records.

If only the complexity of winning hockey games was as simple as comparing goals per game. It's not. In fact, I pretty much found the theory trying to do so to be just downright retarded.

So in your little world, quality chances per game mean nothing? What about penalties? Do they mean nothing too? What about missed chances? Just plain irrelevant? How bout the difference in what happens afterward between a shot that goes on net and one that misses wide; only to fly hard around the boards right to the other team's offense at the blue line? Things like that make no difference in a hockey game right? I mean all that needs to be taken into consideration is how many goals you have compared to other teams in the league right?

Dumb theory. Period.


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03-04-2011, 09:09 AM
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100% wrong, reality but I am the one with my nose in the air?

Haha, did the Rangers outchance the Wild last night? Wild had 3 good scoring opportunities and they all went in. Rangers had several and Theodore was up to the task. Everything you mentioned is part of the game. My point was I say how Lundqvist is part of the problem and people excuse his flaws by saying they don't score enough and how if he was on a better team it would show how good he really is. Well, I took 2 better teams that happen to have similar goal totals and broke down their goal production. Similar to the Rangers in inconsistency, yet like I said they have no doubt they'll be in the play-offs. Why isn't the same inconsistencies with scoring goals cause such a problem for the Caps and Penguins when it comes to the standings?

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03-04-2011, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by The Beezer View Post
I'm guessing that these teams have the ability to get a goal when needed (e.g. The Caps tying the game against the Isles the other night with 19 seconds left) and get to OT where they get a point and have the chance to pick up the extra point thats up for grabs. The numbers might look the same, but these teams are lighting the lamp when it's needed and getting important points out of games.
Ok, and the Rangers didn't have some great chances down the stretch that Theodore flat out robbed them on? Right, it HAS to be that the Rangers can't score. Can't be the other goalie outplayed Hank because as we know Hanks is the greatest things sincel the invention of vulcanized rubber?

This is why I have to laugh at the people on this site. When Hank has a great game and steals a win (remember when that used to happen a lot during his first two years), it is always Hank this, Hank that. When the other goalie has a great night and steals a game, it is always, "Man our guys just can't finish, our guys can't score..." NEVER can you say the other goalie outplayed Hank like the last 2 games. I shouldn't say never as there are a few on here who do. MOST won't say it.

Last night, while I do not fault him for any of the goals, he faced 3 tough shots and they all went in, not ONE huge crowd pumping save. NOT ONE. Guy had the night off practically and came up small when they needed him. Theodore got bombarded all night, and came up big time and time again.

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03-04-2011, 09:24 AM
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You're ignoring the fact the the Bruins are the only team in the Eastern Conference who allows less goals against per game than the Rangers. Although thats not the case during this rough stretch.

Our struggles have been due to a little bit of everything. We aren't finishing our chances. We are making 1 or 2 bad defensive mistakes per game that the other team cashes in on. Instead of deflections hitting Hank they are finding their way in the net. Overall we just aren't getting the bounces right now.

I think a better analysis would be records in 1 goal games.

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03-04-2011, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
100% wrong, reality but I am the one with my nose in the air?

Haha, did the Rangers outchance the Wild last night? Wild had 3 good scoring opportunities and they all went in. Rangers had several and Theodore was up to the task. Everything you mentioned is part of the game. My point was I say how Lundqvist is part of the problem and people excuse his flaws by saying they don't score enough and how if he was on a better team it would show how good he really is. Well, I took 2 better teams that happen to have similar goal totals and broke down their goal production. Similar to the Rangers in inconsistency, yet like I said they have no doubt they'll be in the play-offs. Why isn't the same inconsistencies with scoring goals cause such a problem for the Caps and Penguins when it comes to the standings?

"100% wrong" LMFAO!!!!!


Oh, and yes, we had more quality chances. That was the point. How many went in? How many missed the net entirely? Hey, hockey guru, tell me if it matters if you miss a wide open net and then have the puck fly around the boards to the opposing team, who then gets their own breakaway and actually HITS the net; as in the back of it. Doesn't make a difference?

The defense in front of the Caps' and Penguins' nets, irrelevant? What about special teams... They don't exist in your world either right? Missed calls, ghost calls, they all just never happen? Hey, what kind of goals were scored against the Caps, the Penguins? How many deflections? How many two on ones? How many breakaways? How many from a wide open player in prime territory? Oh, you don't know? Oh, that's right... All it takes is taking 3 1/2 minutes online comparing goal totals. The rest doesn't matter. I forgot.

Your theory holds no water and is completely dismissible. You may commence embarrassing yourself now.

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03-04-2011, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Last night, while I do not fault him for any of the goals, he faced 3 tough shots and they all went in, not ONE huge crowd pumping save. NOT ONE. Guy had the night off practically and came up small when they needed him.
Let's paraphrase:

"I don't fault him for any of the goals, but I blame him for us losing".

Now there's some asinine logic for ya...

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03-04-2011, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Ok, and the Rangers didn't have some great chances down the stretch that Theodore flat out robbed them on? Right, it HAS to be that the Rangers can't score. Can't be the other goalie outplayed Hank because as we know Hanks is the greatest things sincel the invention of vulcanized rubber?

This is why I have to laugh at the people on this site. When Hank has a great game and steals a win (remember when that used to happen a lot during his first two years), it is always Hank this, Hank that. When the other goalie has a great night and steals a game, it is always, "Man our guys just can't finish, our guys can't score..." NEVER can you say the other goalie outplayed Hank like the last 2 games. I shouldn't say never as there are a few on here who do. MOST won't say it.

Last night, while I do not fault him for any of the goals, he faced 3 tough shots and they all went in, not ONE huge crowd pumping save. NOT ONE. Guy had the night off practically and came up small when they needed him. Theodore got bombarded all night, and came up big time and time again.
The problem is, that it seems the opposition goalies are always having great nights against us, no matter whom it is (starter/backup/AHLer). So are guys just stepping up their games to play against the mighty Rangers or is it the latter and the Blueshirts just can't finish on many nights? I'm going with the latter.

As far as Hank goes, while he has given up his share of sofies this season the guy is basically walking the tightrope with out a net. With this teams offensive output lately, he is playing with no margin for error. He's kept many games close and I don't have any beef with him.

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03-04-2011, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
100% wrong, reality but I am the one with my nose in the air?

Haha, did the Rangers outchance the Wild last night? Wild had 3 good scoring opportunities and they all went in. Rangers had several and Theodore was up to the task. Everything you mentioned is part of the game. My point was I say how Lundqvist is part of the problem and people excuse his flaws by saying they don't score enough and how if he was on a better team it would show how good he really is. Well, I took 2 better teams that happen to have similar goal totals and broke down their goal production. Similar to the Rangers in inconsistency, yet like I said they have no doubt they'll be in the play-offs. Why isn't the same inconsistencies with scoring goals cause such a problem for the Caps and Penguins when it comes to the standings?
You actually make very compelling argument. I consider myself an advocate of Henrik and you had me wondering if maybe he has been slacking... But then I went to the statistics and Hank has almost identical save percentage at .920 ( varlamov .923, fleury .917) and GAA at 2.36 ( fleury 2.37) varlamov is a lot better at 2.27 which made me wonder... But varlamov has only played half the games Henrik has and had only seen less than half as many shots as henrik has. Yet henrik still leads the league in shutouts... Hank has seen as many shots this season as varlamov has seen in his career. Varlamovs career GAA is 2.41... So as your argument was an eye opener and made me question henriks status as an elite goaltender his stats don't prove him playing poor as you claim. Maybe we can use all of this together and agree our defense may be the issue


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03-04-2011, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
So, Theodore didn't make some sick saves to steal the game? While Lundqvist faced 3 good shots all game and they all went in.

Like I have shown (unless you just read the thread title), the Caps and Pens have scored similar amounts, had the same problem with inconsistency and low-scoring games, yet are securely in play-off spots.
This is ridiculous. Pay attention.

Why did they score (also the case with Buffalo)?

Because they had a big body BEHIND the "D" to deflect or screen Lundqvist - and I'm not a Lundqvist apologist, he's had his share of softies this year. Vanek screening Henrik is why Buffalo won. Deflections (and a point blank/open shot from 5 feet) from offensive players behind the "D" is why Minnesota won.

Which leads me to why we don't score and make every goalie look like the ghost of Patrick Roy - because they see everything we throw at them .

Say what you want about Drury, but at least he's a player will to stand in front of a goalie and take punishment (and Torts rarely uses him in this role) to disrupt sight lines. Boyle should be this guy on the PP and on his shifts instead of stick handling behind the goal line. Dubinsky wouldn't be a bad guy to stand up there. Feds.

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03-04-2011, 09:40 AM
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Never said they don't miss open nets, how many times did Theodore outright rob a goal from the Rangers last night? Several. How many times was the building ready to explode but Theodore denied it? A bunch. How many times did Lundqvist do the same, maybe once at the end of the first period. When Minnesota needed Theodore to come up huge, he did. When the Rangers needed Lundqvist, he failed. He face 4 tough shots all night, and 3 went in.

Yet, people want to claim scoring scoring scoring. Can't give the other goalie credit for bailing out his team, must be because our forwards are terrible and can't finish. Other goalie can't come up big.

deflections? You want to bring those up? really? Hank hardly ever makes saves on deflections. When the other team scores a deflected goal people want to blame the defensman. Went the opposing goalie makes the save on the deflected goal, people can't give the goalie credit. Of course, the few times when Hank does get lucky and get hit by a deflection Rangers fans go nuts and act like the man walks on water.

Twist things how you want. Point is Penguins and Caps are struggling with scoring consistently from game to game and they are going to be (most likely) the 4th and 5th seeds.

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03-04-2011, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Never said they don't miss open nets, how many times did Theodore outright rob a goal from the Rangers last night? Several. How many times was the building ready to explode but Theodore denied it? A bunch. How many times did Lundqvist do the same, maybe once at the end of the first period. When Minnesota needed Theodore to come up huge, he did. When the Rangers needed Lundqvist, he failed. He face 4 tough shots all night, and 3 went in.

Yet, people want to claim scoring scoring scoring. Can't give the other goalie credit for bailing out his team, must be because our forwards are terrible and can't finish. Other goalie can't come up big.

deflections? You want to bring those up? really? Hank hardly ever makes saves on deflections. When the other team scores a deflected goal people want to blame the defensman. Went the opposing goalie makes the save on the deflected goal, people can't give the goalie credit. Of course, the few times when Hank does get lucky and get hit by a deflection Rangers fans go nuts and act like the man walks on water.

Twist things how you want. Point is Penguins and Caps are struggling with scoring consistently from game to game and they are going to be (most likely) the 4th and 5th seeds.
Several is not a number. A bunch is not a number either. Do you actually have numbers?

And you made a point earlier of stating that the Wild had almost no shots on goal all game. Well then DUH, obviously he didn't have many chances to make that big save like Theodore did. You can't know a goalie faced only a few shots yet expect him to have made a "bunch" of glowing saves at the same time. That's just stupid.

Yes, 3 of the 4 went in. But look at the quality of those 3. Hell, even you said they were such good chances that you don't blame Hank, even though you blame Hank.

And tell me, did our players not actually shoot the puck INTO Theodore most of the time? That does make a difference ya know. Like, where the puck actually goes and stuff.

But again, that all deals with the complexities of hockey, of which you're being far too simple minded to grasp. Seems the only thing you can grasp is a handful of straws.

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03-04-2011, 09:48 AM
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If you want to point fingers, we lost that game last night because Callahan missed a wide open net. That would have put the Rangers up 2-0 and completely changed the complexion of the game.

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03-04-2011, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
So, Theodore didn't make some sick saves to steal the game? While Lundqvist faced 3 good shots all game and they all went in.

Like I have shown (unless you just read the thread title), the Caps and Pens have scored similar amounts, had the same problem with inconsistency and low-scoring games, yet are securely in play-off spots.
Numbers can only tell you so much, but after thoroughly reading your OP, i've got to give you credit for working your argument together like this.

My answer -

It might be a function of the system the Rangers play, and more importantly, the style of their #1 goaltender. How many deflected goals have we seen this year on Lundqvist?

Two of those goals last night could not be stopped. It seems to be that way everynight - so maybe (like you are referring to) we should start looking why that happens so often.

Maybe the defense should focus more on crease clearing and Henrik should come out a little further from his net. I mentioned this exact thing yesterday before the game. Its funny too, because on one of the goals Lundqvist was above the crease - and thats rare for him - maybe it IS something they are aware of.

I dont want this to sound like im making an excuse for Hank, because I've also stated he needs to play better. If the scorers have to find a way, so does he. He hasnt stolen many games this season.

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03-04-2011, 09:50 AM
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OK, so when I mentioned about Lundqvist being a big part of their problem, just about everyone on here and their mother jumped all over me.
There is a good reason for that.

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03-04-2011, 09:52 AM
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You actually make very compelling argument. I consider myself an advocate of Henrik and you had me wondering if maybe he has been slacking... But then I went to the statistics and Hank has almost identical save percentage at .920 ( varlamov .923, fleury .917) and GAA at 2.36 ( fleury 2.37) varlamov is a lot better at 2.27 which made me wonder... But varlamov has only played half the games Henrik has and had only seen less than half as many shots as henrik has. Yet henrik still leads the league in shutouts... Hank has seen as many shots this season as varlamov has seen in his career. Varlamovs career GAA is 2.41... So as your argument was an eye opener and made me question henriks status as an elite goaltender his stats don't prove him playing poor as you claim. Maybe we can use all of this together and agree our defense may be the issue
The shutouts do amaze me, which further leads to him being inconsistent. However, remember in three of those shutouts they did score 6+ goals. Doesn't take away from his shutout, but it is not as big as his shutout against Vancouver when he looked absolutely unreal. Another came against the Panthers, well they are the panthers.

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03-04-2011, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
It might be a function of the system the Rangers play too, and more importantly, the style of their #1 goaltender. How many deflected goals have we seen this year on Lundqvist?

Two of those goals last night could not be stopped. It seems to be that way everynight - so maybe (like you are referring to) we should start looking why that happens so often.

Maybe the defense should focus more on crease clearing and Henrik should come out a little further from his net. I mentioned this exact thing yesterday before the game. Its funny too, because on one of the goals Lundqvist was above the crease - and thats rare for him - maybe it IS something they are aware of.
I'm sure they're aware of it. Even the announcers comment on the same now. Problem is, being back in the net is one of the individual traits that makes Hank Hank. I think it would be a huge adjustment for him to take that individualistic trait away from him. Defensive coverage and better crease clearing are definitely some strategies that should come first imo.

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