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Francois Gagnon: Tinordi and 1st round round draft pick for Penner

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Old
03-04-2011, 10:30 AM
  #26
MathMan
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The fact that Boston completely fleeced St.-Louis in the Boyes deal doesn't really affect the judgement of the Penner deal -- and Penner is a much better player than Boyes.

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03-04-2011, 10:31 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Passing on Penner and going agressively after a Laich or Upshall this summer could turn into a great move.
It's disappointing to lower one's target so much, however. The Habs really could use an impact winger; going from a first-liner to a deluxe third-liner is kind of disappointing, and if AK is going to stay with Eller, the Habs still need a top-6 winger.

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03-04-2011, 10:31 AM
  #28
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I'm glad PG didnt pull the trigger

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03-04-2011, 10:33 AM
  #29
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03-04-2011, 10:36 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Next Best Thing View Post
But in the event that he plateaus into a big, physical, stay-at-home first pairing D whom we can rely on game after game, wouldn't that still be more useful than having Penner in itself?
Unidimensional #4 D-man versus impact first-line winger? I think this is a no-brainer.

And I don't know about you but it would have been pretty terrible not to have a first and a second pick in this year's draft. We're not exactly perennial cup contenders and our cupboards are almost bare when it comes to defense.[/quote]

1. Montreal is a very good team this year, and would be a second-tier contender with Markov and Gorges -- and four rookies.

2. The cupboard only looks bare because the Habs' prospects are now in the NHL. Graduate two guys from your farm and of course your D down low will look bare. That doesn't mean that the Habs' defense will have problems in the future, quite the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Next Best Thing View Post
In any case, If I werre to offer up Tinordi (no matter how u see his potential he is still a first round pick) + a first it wouldn't be for Penner.
Who for then?

I think people here are underestimating Penner. Troll coppernblue.com or other Oilers analysis blogs; Penner may be the most analyzed player in the NHL.

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03-04-2011, 10:36 AM
  #31
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Glad PG didn't have any of this. Don't like Penner, don't like Dumont and I am so glad we didn't end up with either of them.

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03-04-2011, 10:37 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
TSN rated Gauthier a C on deadline day, for the fact that he didn't trade for somebody whose only a partial fit, for the fact that he got Wiz a guy whose arguably able to put up 50-60 points as a defender on a team that's a shell of it's old defensive self, I respectfully disagree. The non-move for me makes perfect sense. Sure I would've loved to see a deal get done but if it isn't the right move then no move is the right move.
The idea that TSN grades teams' overall deadline activity is kind of absurd, considering the focus is mostly on what the return is for each team in the deal -- who loaded up, who got the right pieces, etc. Reality is, like any transactions, we're not going to know how many of these deals affected and potentially set franchises back until a few years down the road.

I personally would've considered us huge losers (in every sense) had we started dispensing picks and pulling the drain on our prospect pool to acquire a good 'fit' but a non-essential player for our future.

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03-04-2011, 10:38 AM
  #33
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@Whereabouts unknown: The fact that the three videos that are used to prop up Tinordi's value are a hit and two fights really worries me about his future.

That kind of thing is great for fans to get excited, but its usefulness to a hockey team is limited -- and as Brunet pointed out, Tinordi is spending too much effort fighting and not enough being a defenseman these days.

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03-04-2011, 10:40 AM
  #34
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Giving up two first rounders for Penner is steep, but he is a big body who will defend his teammates at times. He could have been useful, but the price is probably too high as it would have effectively emptied our cupboards. Our prospects have all graduated, and there isn't a ton there right now, and we have very few picks this draft with which to deepen it. Hope we get some NCAA free-agents, or some hidden gems from some country I have never heard of.

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Old
03-04-2011, 10:43 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Bacchus1 View Post
Giving up two first rounders for Penner is steep, but he is a big body who will defend his teammates at times. He could have been useful, but the price is probably too high as it would have effectively emptied our cupboards. Our prospects have all graduated, and there isn't a ton there right now, and we have very few picks this draft with which to deepen it. Hope we get some NCAA free-agents, or some hidden gems from some country I have never heard of.
We don't have a 2nd rounder, have a pick in all other rounds. We gave Atlanta our 4th but have Anaheims as the result of the Chipchura trade last year

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03-04-2011, 10:43 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
@Whereabouts unknown: The fact that the three videos that are used to prop up Tinordi's value are a hit and two fights really worries me about his future.

That kind of thing is great for fans to get excited, but its usefulness to a hockey team is limited -- and as Brunet pointed out, Tinordi is spending too much effort fighting and not enough being a defenseman these days.
True but you will rarely see a video of a person making a strong "defensive play" and Tirnordi will never be an offensive Juggernaut nor was he drafted for that. As for Brunet.. meh.. I don't put much into anything he says lol

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03-04-2011, 10:46 AM
  #37
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Look as far as Tinordi is concerned, What Timmons saw is rather simple.
You can teach but is the Player willing and have enough brains to learn?
Can he skate? can he skate in the NHL as d-man can he already turn on both sides. So thats the teaching stuff, now for the things you just CAN'T teach. You can't teach 6.7 and you can fill out that frame to at least 220-230 minumim, could go as high as 240-250. Although you can teach a guy to fight you can't teach a guy to want to fight, it has to be already there. So does Tinordi have potential? Hell yes. Does he need 3-4 more development years? Hell yes. Right now we just don't know what he will be in the NHL. We need to let him develop, we need to check on him once a year. What we are allowed, is to HOPE he maxes out his potential.
Because it sure would be great for the Habs to have found their own Chara or Pronger as see how those big bad Bruins and Flyers like these apples. Never going to be a P.K. but never stop looking for your STUD D-Man, NEVER.

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03-04-2011, 10:49 AM
  #38
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Penner is nice, but losing last years and this years first? especially since we traded to move up on last years draft? no thx

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03-04-2011, 10:52 AM
  #39
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I still don't understand how Dustin Penner commanded such a high asking price. Good player, but come on - he's cracked 60 points once...he's a 30-30 guy at his best, maybe a 40 goal scorer with a great centreman...but yeesh.
Don't even mention size - he might as well be 5'11", 190 lbs the way he plays.

I'm far from thinking that Tinordi is untouchable but I wouldn't go near that trade.

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03-04-2011, 10:54 AM
  #40
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Was this really offered or it just came from a random Twitter? I have a hard time trusting FGagnon these days, his credibility for me took many hits over the last year. I mean, the very same day on the deadline he posted something about PG being on the plane with the team that created a big mess (albeit entertaining on that very boring day) while it was not true and he just left his blog with that main message on all day and never retracted himself afaik.

As for the trade itself I'm glad it was not done. I don't like Penner all that much personally, and I DON'T see him as an impact first line player (the kind of player that would warrant a 1st + 1st pick prospect). He has the same consistency problem as AK and is somewhat lazy. I think a lot of people see him a lot bigger than he really is because they don't see him every game.

If all you saw from AK was his highlights, you'd think he's a total beast of a player. It's just that they don't show all the other games where he was a shadow of his potential. Penner actually has stats very similar to AK at the same age. He reached 30 goals for the first time last year, but he's 2 years older than AK. I'd much rather stick with AK than trade for Penner, at least he does not cost us any prospect or pick, and while he might not fight he his one of the most physical forwards we have and is no push-over.

Now you would have the option to have both, but I still would not want to give away these prospects/picks for him, if it was a UFA acquisition it would be more interesting.

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03-04-2011, 10:57 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by walsy37 View Post
Did PG offer this or was this what Edmonton wanted?
Excellent point!

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03-04-2011, 11:00 AM
  #42
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I still don't understand how Dustin Penner commanded such a high asking price.
Deadline day. Limited supply combined with high demand makes for some crazy ****.

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03-04-2011, 11:04 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Whereabouts Unknown View Post
True but you will rarely see a video of a person making a strong "defensive play" and Tirnordi will never be an offensive Juggernaut nor was he drafted for that. As for Brunet.. meh.. I don't put much into anything he says lol
Well I do mean Mathias and not Benoit.

I don't expect Benoit Brunet to make the point that a guy fights too much very often.

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03-04-2011, 11:10 AM
  #44
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It's not just about doing it because you're not super high on Tinordi. It's whether or not the trade itself is fair.
Like him or not, Tinordi is still a valuable asset, like McDonagh was. We made the mistake of trading one for Gomez. Doing the same thing for Penner would be idiotic.
On top of that, we have to give our 1st rounder too??? All this for another overpaid player that's not particularly better than AK?
Really, I don't care that you don't really like the Tinordi pick, that trade would have been a huge steal.

Also, unless a player has stardom written all over, it's tough to really know just how good or bad will be in the NHL. Already, you think he'll become an okay player, that's good enough for now.
We went to the conference finals largely based on that trade. Can hardly classify that as a mistake.

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03-04-2011, 11:15 AM
  #45
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We went to the conference finals largely based on that trade. Can hardly classify that as a mistake.
That was a brutal deal, regardless, IMO. I don't know how that can be viewed positively.

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03-04-2011, 11:15 AM
  #46
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The chances of a first round pick turning out are pretty low, and the chances of that pick turning into a really good player are even lower.

IMO, if you have a chance to trade a "potential" top six forward (ie. the pick) for an "actual" top six forward, you always do it.

In fact, I think we should trade these low first rounders now while all the GMs in the league still have their heads in the sand.

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03-04-2011, 11:16 AM
  #47
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Tinordi will be a HUGE part of our futur. We have no d-man that do what Tinordi bringing to the table.

Hell, he has 130 PIMS and counting at his first year in the OHL.

Subban will finally have a d-partner to defend him.

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03-04-2011, 11:20 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by angry pirate View Post
We went to the conference finals largely based on that trade. Can hardly classify that as a mistake.
They are probably willing to give him away for nothing or send him down to Hamilton if they could, while the rangers have Mcdonagh playing 20 plus minutes a game. The Deal was horrible.

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03-04-2011, 11:28 AM
  #49
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I don't like trading away first round picks... it gives me one of two impressions. Either we regret making that pick and we're giving up already, or we have poor asset management.

Obviously there are some positives when trading away a former first-rounder, like getting good players in return, but it really have to be worth it or else I think it's a waste. We have to have some faith in our ability (or inability?) to train our picks to be quality NHL players.

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03-04-2011, 11:30 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by TheBuriedHab View Post
They are probably willing to give him away for nothing or send him down to Hamilton if they could, while the rangers have Mcdonagh playing 20 plus minutes a game. The Deal was horrible.
He is playing 20 minutes a game for a team that is looking more and more likely to miss the playoffs. You can't just say that Mcdonagh starting to get good now and gomez is sucking it up and label it as a mistake.

Gomez was good for us throughout the season and playoffs last year. Pyatt has been a mainstay in our lineup. Gomez put up 59 points last year and had another 14 in the playoffs. You can't have the "what have you done for me lately" attitude when analyzing a trade. Past results have to come into consideration. And the past results of Gomez and Pyatt have made this trade, imo, worthwhile.

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