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John Tortorella Discussion (Update: Torts extended 3 years)

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03-04-2011, 01:01 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
our best forward on the ice was Brandon Dubinsky, who most would argue is a 2nd line winger.

thats a HUGE problem for this team.

Wheres the offensive talent?

If Dubi is your 2nd line winger, youve got a strong team. if Dubi is your superstar forward, youre sccreeewwweeeddd

Rangers need to sign Richards, need to get Gabby going, and frankly they need a 3rd offensive star to boot.
I love how before it was Renney who needed to get Gomez and Drury etc. going, now the Rangers need to get Gaborik going. I guess the coach's responsibilities have changed since then, hey?

I find it extremely odd that you can use Jagr's successes to detract from Renney, but
you won't use Gaborik's failures to detract from Tortorella.

anyways, I don't think Tortorella deserves to be fired.

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03-04-2011, 01:11 PM
  #102
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That's exactly my point. The injuries aren't the problem. The lack of depth is.
Well, I'm not so sure the lack of depth is the issue. We have great depth, the problem is that those depth players are being asked to play primary roles on the team.

I have no problem with guys like Anisimov putting up lower numbers. He's a second year player and hasn't regressed at all. In fact, he's bettered himself in just about every facet of his game. The fact that he isn't the next Malkin isn't something to be angry about.

The team is poorly managed. That's about the only thing I can see a consensus on.

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03-04-2011, 01:12 PM
  #103
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The last few games the rangers have dominated the opposition but cant score. Its not the coaches fault when we have empty nets or glorious chances and just cant bury them.

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03-04-2011, 01:17 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
His minutes have been taken by Ryan McDonagh who is playing at a much higher level than Rozi was. The Rangers are not getting the results because the effort gap that was in their favor every night has shrunk to almost nothing. Teams are working harder in their own zones forcing the Rangers to exhibit more talent to score and they don't have that talent; not yet but I am optimistic it is on the way (Richards and more talented kids).
But then Gilroy got McDonagh's spot and all of a sudden we start losing, because Tortorella hought he can rely on Gilroy, then he was playing Del Zotto for some reason and we went into a tailspin.

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03-04-2011, 01:19 PM
  #105
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Well, I'm not so sure the lack of depth is the issue. We have great depth, the problem is that those depth players are being asked to play primary roles on the team.
We have good organizational depth in terms of a solid group of prospects and younger players... They are playing well, but prospects and first year rookies carry low expectations because they are inexperienced... They can't be relied on to produce much or carry the team...

Our roster depth is not good... One first line forward, No first line center, and no 2nd line center... I understand Stepan is doing well for a rookie, but he would not be a 2nd line center on any team with depth... He's got no experience... That plays a big part in our depth... AA is inconsistent and only has a year of experience under his belt... First year rookies comprise our 2nd pairing on defense... If one of Staal or Girardi goes out, we have rookies filling their roles.... Again, poor depth on this team... It's more of a factor of inexperience than it is not having good players... This team will look a lot different a few years out.

The only teams that are able to rely on young players to carry their teams are the ones who tanked for a couple years and were able to draft franchise players with their top overall selections (Pittsburgh, Washington, Chicago).... Rangers were not and are not in that position... Our better younger players are not first line forwards, let alone franchise players...

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03-04-2011, 01:23 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
We have good organizational depth in terms of a solid group of prospects and younger players... They are playing well, but prospects and first year rookies carry low expectations because they are inexperienced... They can't be relied on to produce much or carry the team...

Our roster depth is not good... One first line forward, No first line center, and no 2nd line center... I understand Stepan is doing well for a rookie, but he would not be a 2nd line center on any team with depth... He's got no experience... That plays a big part in our depth... AA is inconsistent and only has a year of experience under his belt... First year rookies comprise our 2nd pairing on defense... If one of Staal or Girardi goes out, we have rookies filling their roles.... Again, poor depth on this team... It's more of a fact of inexperience than it is not having good players... This team will look a lot different a few years out.

The only teams that are able to rely on young players to carry their teams are the ones who tanked for a couple years and were able to draft franchise players with their top overall selections (Pittsburgh, Washington, Chicago).... Rangers were not and are not in that position... Our better younger players are not first line forwards, let alone franchise players...
That's basically my point. Too much depth, not enough premium talent.

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03-04-2011, 01:26 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
That's basically my point. Too much depth, not enough premium talent.
I agree.. I just don't understand how some can acknowledge this reality and pin this solely on the coach... This is what Sather has given him to work with... It's surprising we're even in a playoff position right now given the circumstances of our roster, Gaborik's down year, and the slew of injuries...


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03-04-2011, 01:36 PM
  #108
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I am kind of split on this, but in the end we need a more cerebral coach. Torts is less about looking at tape of other teams and more about getting his own house in order. That is fine and not necessarily unusual, but I would rather have a coach that does both. A good example would be when we play a Lemaire coached Devs team, we end up getting 15 shots because we aren't prepared for the trap. The team usually ends up getting the O going by the 3rd period, once they figure out a way around it. With Torts, it is always about reacting to when it happens rather than reading when it will happen and preventing it. I really hate that.

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03-04-2011, 01:44 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
That's basically my point. Too much depth, not enough premium talent.
thats what happens when you waste high picks on crap

also losing cherepanov set us back. he would have been special.

this organization is paying the price for having very few homegrown impact forwards pan out. we have lots of bottom 6 types. not many top 6 guys in the last 5 years.

ive said this for ever, we have quantity not quality. were like the old soviet army. lots of tanks to go to battle with. enormous numerical advantage but half dont work, the ones that do move, cant compete with the usa armor. same thing.

we need a huge dose of talent in this organization and we drafted dylan freekin mcilrath.....

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03-04-2011, 01:47 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
I agree.. I just don't understand how some can acknowledge this reality and ping this solely on the coach... This is what Sather has given him to work with... It's surprising we're even in a playoff position right now given the circumstances of our roster, Gaborik's down year, and the slew of injuries...
I don't understand it either. Not sure I want to.

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03-04-2011, 01:55 PM
  #111
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I think he should at least get to have a chance with a team that isn't plagued by dead cap space. If they can buy out Drury, get Redden totally of the books and add a real solid player into that space Torts will have every opportunity to succeed. If he can't get it done then he should go. For now though I don't think many other people would do better with this team. The competition generally has at least two high paid forwards who are good on any given night while this team has Gaborik and Drury making a ton of money. Gaborik was worth it last year and may be worth it again next year but Drury's money goes to good players on teams that are built correctly - thats a big part of why they beat this Rangers team more often than not. 7 million dollars could be a good bit more scoring instead of the practically nothing its producing now. A lot of one goal games could have been different with a player or two players who deservs that money on the ice.

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03-04-2011, 01:56 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
thats what happens when you waste high picks on crap

also losing cherepanov set us back. he would have been special.

this organization is paying the price for having very few homegrown impact forwards pan out. we have lots of bottom 6 types. not many top 6 guys in the last 5 years.

ive said this for ever, we have quantity not quality. were like the old soviet army. lots of tanks to go to battle with. enormous numerical advantage but half dont work, the ones that do move, cant compete with the usa armor. same thing.

we need a huge dose of talent in this organization and we drafted dylan freekin mcilrath.....
What I said had nothing to do with McIlrath, or any pick over the last 5 years for that matter.

Sather came in with the idea that he could buy a championship. That failed.

He tried amending that to "rebuild on the fly" and acquire the primary talent through free agency. Also a proving to be a failure.

Piss and moan all you want about McIlrath, but when I say "premium talent" I'm not referring specifically to skilled forwards. You may think the pick is already a failure, I'm just not that short sighted. Please don't drag this thread into the toilet with more of this nonsense.

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03-04-2011, 01:58 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
thats what happens when you waste high picks on crapalso losing cherepanov set us back. he would have been special.

this organization is paying the price for having very few homegrown impact forwards pan out. we have lots of bottom 6 types. not many top 6 guys in the last 5 years.

ive said this for ever, we have quantity not quality. were like the old soviet army. lots of tanks to go to battle with. enormous numerical advantage but half dont work, the ones that do move, cant compete with the usa armor. same thing.

we need a huge dose of talent in this organization and we drafted dylan freekin mcilrath.....
Sather has blown it big time. It will be years before we have even a chance of contending. Years.

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03-04-2011, 01:58 PM
  #114
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I don't think it's that surprising that we're in a playoff spot. For the first half of the season we were playing at or above reasonable expectations, while a whole slew of other teams in the East were absolutely atrocious. We were able to establish ourselves a decent cushion. Our current playoff position has just as much to do with the failures of the teams currently behind us as it does with what we did early on. IMO.

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03-04-2011, 02:00 PM
  #115
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This is a terrible argument. I can't stand seeing so many people make it and not realize how dumb it is.

Oh no Drury's hurt...that's why we're not winning now?

Can you explain to me what exactly Drury or Frolov contributed to this team when they were healthy? Nothing. Them being out isn't even relevant.

Gaborik? Yes he's had a terrible year. That didn't seem to stop the team from winning games the first 80% of the season, did it?

Staal was out for how many games? Like three or something? That didn't really affect much.

Girardi? A few games as well that didn't affect us much either.

Callahan and Dubinsky? The team won when they were out.

When you get your better players back and start to lose, how do you blame it on them being injured? The team won games when all these guys were out.

This argument has no legs to stand on.
Your argument is stupid and has no legs.

How's that for respectful debate?

So you see no problem from 2 $7m players missing significant time and not playing all that well when they are actually in the lineup. You are getting about 40 pts this season, maybe, from $14m in cap hit. How is that Tortorella's fault?

If we were getting just a smidgen of production from guys like this right now, we wouldn't be losing every game by 1 goal. So sorry to ruin you blame game. Hockey has nothing to do with talent or skill level, all you have to do is order the pieces around the right way and everything will work out the way you want it... Why, it's just like picking up a game controller and turning Ortmeyer into a 40 goal scorer. Easy.

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03-04-2011, 02:01 PM
  #116
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Where are you all you injury and youth excuse machines?

I'd like to hear how it's possible the Devils have been the best team in the league for several months now since Lemaire took over and actually coached them.

Their injuries have been pretty brutal.

Their defense is better than ours? That's laughable.

Funny what a coach can actually accomplish when he coaches.

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03-04-2011, 02:03 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
I don't think it's that surprising that we're in a playoff spot. For the first half of the season we were playing at or above reasonable expectations, while a whole slew of other teams in the East were absolutely atrocious. We were able to establish ourselves a decent cushion. Our current playoff position has just as much to do with the failures of the teams currently behind us as it does with what we did early on. IMO.
The devils early season troubles left a void in the EC 1-8 that hasn't been there in almost 20 years. (did I just type that?)

Buffalo also is usually in there. Didn't it seem unusally easy to be in a playoff position in the first half?

Winning helps...lol

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03-04-2011, 02:06 PM
  #118
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Your argument is stupid and has no legs.

How's that for respectful debate?

So you see no problem from 2 $7m players missing significant time and not playing all that well when they are actually in the lineup. You are getting about 40 pts this season, maybe, from $14m in cap hit. How is that Tortorella's fault?
Exactly. What other teams in the playoff race are getting that kind of production for their two highest paid forwards soaking up $14.5 mil in cap space? People just have axes to grind with the coach with no regard for the context or reality of the circumstances the team is up against... If anybody should have the finger pointed at them, it's Sather...

That being said, I'm not freaking out here because I did not have high expectations for this team heading into the season... This was more or less to be expected heading into this season looking at our roster... Is it disappointing? Sure... But it's not surprising in the least bit.

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03-04-2011, 02:06 PM
  #119
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Where are you all you injury and youth excuse machines?

I'd like to hear how it's possible the Devils have been the best team in the league for several months now since Lemaire took over and actually coached them.

Their injuries have been pretty brutal.

Their defense is better than ours? That's laughable.

Funny what a coach can actually accomplish when he coaches.
I don't think firing Torts is the answer at the moment, but this post has some merit.

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03-04-2011, 02:07 PM
  #120
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Your argument is stupid and has no legs.

How's that for respectful debate?

So you see no problem from 2 $7m players missing significant time and not playing all that well when they are actually in the lineup. You are getting about 40 pts this season, maybe, from $14m in cap hit. How is that Tortorella's fault?

If we were getting just a smidgen of production from guys like this right now, we wouldn't be losing every game by 1 goal. So sorry to ruin you blame game. Hockey has nothing to do with talent or skill level, all you have to do is order the pieces around the right way and everything will work out the way you want it... Why, it's just like picking up a game controller and turning Ortmeyer into a 40 goal scorer. Easy.

Spare me the holier than thou crap. If it hurts your feelings when someone disagrees with you it's not my problem. You argument has no legs. You did nothing to prove otherwise.

Who the hell gives two craps about cap hits with what we're talking about? Drury and Frolov provided NOTHING for this team when they were playing.

Tell me that you disagree. Please do.

So how on earth does using them as a reason for why this team has struggled make any sense? It DOESN'T.

We were in a playoff position for the first 80% of the season WITH NO HELP FROM THOSE TWO AT ALL.

Losing them can't hurt you when they provided NOTHING at all when they were in the lineup.

Do you see how that works?

Funny you mention Jed Ortmeyer. Remember him? Wasn't he on that team was picked to finish 30th in the league and then went 44-26-12 and registered 100 points under our previous coach?

It's interesting when you see a coach get the most of his players, isn't it?

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03-04-2011, 02:11 PM
  #121
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I don't think firing Torts is the answer at the moment, but this post has some merit.
I'm not necessarily an advocate of firing Tortorella, especially because it's not going to happen after this season anyway.

What I don't get is where all these excuses for this guy come from.

Everyone usually always points to what he did in Tampa Bay or his feisty attitude and accountability blah blah blah.

But I just don't understand what on earth he has done to warrant any sort of loyalty from our fan base.

Going with youth? What other option did this organization have?

This guy has done nothing since he's been here and yet people are loyal to him like he's given us so much. It makes no sense.

And people refuse to acknowledge coaches throughout the league who do more with less than what we have.

Sign'Blues seems to be the only one I've seen who understands exactly what I've been saying: Torts was brought in here to take this team to the next level. Renney had this team in the playoffs year after year after year and 7.7 seconds away from being a win away from a Conference Final. Torts was supposed to be the one to get us over that hump.

How can anyone look at the results of his tenure thus far and come to any other conclusion then the team has regressed? You can't. Because those are the facts.

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03-04-2011, 02:16 PM
  #122
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The players respond to Torts. They play hard for him and this is the first season in sometime that you can witness this team growing together. If we fire him now who knows how long it will take to get the team on the right track. We aren't playing terrible hockey, just cant find the back of the net. When you constantly out shoot your opponent and out work them it isnt the coaches fault. Everyone just calm down we'll be ok.

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03-04-2011, 02:23 PM
  #123
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I think our problem is that we (Torts) doesn't have a lot of options in terms of tactics and in-game strategy.

We are a 1-trick pony and the EC, as well as some WC teams, have figured us out. The style of play that worked early in the season is not a secret to anyone.

The lack of high-end talent inhibits our ability to adapt. We figured out how to play a certain way with what little talent we have, and now the opposition has learned how to effectively counter it. And we have no other strategy because of our limited skill-set.

We don't have good team speed. We are average at best at passing. Shooting? lol let's not go there. We are good at checking to a degree, but we are STILL (after AAAALLLLLLL these years) NOT PHYSICAL ENOUGH. and we have good goal tending on most nights.

Poor speed and lousy passing in today's NHL, and no one (who's playing or wants to play) that has a decent shot (OK aside from McCabe now)? Where are we going?

We ground out some wins and now they have our number.

I'd prefer to stay with Torts for now. Let's see who we can pick up in the off-season.

Don't get me wrong: I'M NOT HAPPY. I just don't see a big positive change coming from a different coach.

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03-04-2011, 02:28 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
Exactly. What other teams in the playoff race are getting that kind of production for their two highest paid forwards soaking up $14.5 mil in cap space? People just have axes to grind with the coach with no regard for the context or reality of the circumstances the team is up against... If anybody should have the finger pointed at them, it's Sather...
I think everyone agrees that it's ultimately Sather's fault. However, he's going nowhere, so the discussion shifts to, "What is wrong with the team, other than Sather?"

I have no axe to grind. And my issues with what Tortorella has done aren't limited to this injury-riddled season. I thought last year's team was eminently capable of making the playoffs. Without question. And we didn't. I'm still irritated by his behavior during our painful collapse against Washington the season prior. It's not as if I decided over the past 2 months that I hate Tortorella and he's an awful coach. I do not hate him, nor is he awful. Nor is this dissatisfaction limited to recent history.

I find many of his lineup decisions to be questionable, in terms of who plays and who sits. Gilroy/MDZ over Eminger has been the biggest head-scratcher for me of the past decade. The same can be said for his seemingly arbitrary in-game decisions as to who gets increased/decreased TOI. His job is to get the best out of the players on the team, and too often I think he fails to do so.

Quote:
That being said, I'm not freaking out here because I did not have high expectations for this team heading into the season... This was more or less to be expected heading into this season looking at our roster... Is it disappointing? Sure... But it's not surprising in the least bit.
I'm not freaking out, either. I'm past that. But I am very disappointed. I look at our roster, with Gaborik and Drury providing nothing, and I still think we're capable of earning a playoff spot in the East. I felt the same way last season. And now, we're going to miss out for the second consecutive year. That's not acceptable. To me, anyway. And no, I'm not surprised. When we all predict a finish somewhere between 6 and 10, this season shouldn't be a surprise...but it is on the low end of expectations. For the second consecutive year.

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03-04-2011, 02:29 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Special View Post
I think our problem is that we (Torts) doesn't have a lot of options in terms of tactics and in-game strategy.

We are a 1-trick pony and the EC, as well as some WC teams, have figured us out. The style of play that worked early in the season is not a secret to anyone.

The lack of high-end talent inhibits our ability to adapt. We figured out how to play a certain way with what little talent we have, and now the opposition has learned how to effectively counter it. And we have no other strategy because of our limited skill-set.

We don't have good team speed. We are average at best at passing. Shooting? lol let's not go there. We are good at checking to a degree, but we are STILL (after AAAALLLLLLL these years) NOT PHYSICAL ENOUGH. and we have good goal tending on most nights.

Poor speed and lousy passing in today's NHL, and no one (who's playing or wants to play) that has a decent shot (OK aside from McCabe now)? Where are we going?

We ground out some wins and now they have our number.

I'd prefer to stay with Torts for now. Let's see who we can pick up in the off-season.

Don't get me wrong: I'M NOT HAPPY. I just don't see a big positive change coming from a different coach.

Who were the players that contributed most to this teams success for most of the year?

And who are the players that are being limited the most ice time wise now?

Another poster posted the same thing a few pages back but he's absolutely right.

Torts has gotten away from the players who got us here.

He's continued to hurt the blue line by putting Gilroy in the lineup night in and night out. We saw it again last night. Gilroy spitting the bit.

The amount of ice time and who plays is directly attributed to the coach.

He's been horrible with it, and for some reason seems to have forgotten everything he's preached about identity and the players who invoke that.

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